Before you actually complain about the tank meta, learn to itemize.

Aboylova92·May 31, 2015·33 votes·1,953 views

I've heard this recently in my games where either the other team is complaining when I'm not dying (I usually play Voli), or my team complaining. Please, buy the percent health damage items, ESPECIALLY if it works in your kit anyway. I had a Vel'Koz complain he was doing no damage to the enemy team, but yet refused to by Liandries, literally one of his most important core items. When there's three tanks, and instead you decide to build a second mana regen item, it's your own fault. Tanks are no different from before, except for the tank junglers whom now deal extra damage.

TLDR: Learn to itemize before complaining that tanks in this meta are OP.

35 Comments

Mandang0May 31, 201515 votes

While I agree, Liandry's isn't actually gonna cut it unless you're allowed to poke for a long amount of time. Bork at least applies on each hit, but Liandry's doesn't stack.

Aboylova92Jun 1, 20151 votes

Well with someone like Vel'Koz you generally are poking for a long time. Your spells cost very little, and everything is very spamable. Whether or not you hit them is up to you though.

Mandang0Jun 1, 20152 votes

Well, by the point in the game when you buy Liandry's, the other team shouldn't be content to eat your poke for a long time, especially in this tank meta. It's not a question of whether you hit your spells, it's a question of whether the other team stands around for long enough for liandry's dot to add up.

Like other people have said, I'd recommend void staff first.

MarhsallLee67Jun 1, 20152 votes

Void Staff is a more cost-effective purchase than Liandry's atm when it comes to burning through MR.

Aych PiiJun 1, 20151 votes

Liandries is for health stacking, something Volibear especially likes to do.

Spacesuit SpiffJun 1, 20151 votes

sadly, poke champs in soloq generally lead to this situation:

Jayce (pokes) Sona (randomly flash ults the enemy tank) Jayce guys my spells are down gah...

Earl EulrichMay 31, 20159 votes

just take your own advice..liandries is only good for prolonged poke. If you want to kill a tank go voidstaff.

Ih8ucuzurtoxicJun 1, 20155 votes

It's really frustrating how bad some people are at itemization. And how few people will listen to you when you explain it calmly and patiently.

Game Example:

Riven feeds Fiora 4 kills... ME: Riven buy thornmail. RIven: Why? She one shots me. ME: Exactly... get armor and return dmg to her. Later in the game, after fiora gains many more kills and yi is fed too. Me: nunu, stop going ap, grab tank, get thornmail, tryn plz grab one too ur dying too fast to her. Nunu: FUMES TOXIC, EKKO SO OP, FIORA SO OP. BOT FED TOP FED JG FED AAAAAHHHHH And so that went the rest of the game while he fed the entire time because he got 2 shot. Tryn never said a word and never got anything but dmg items.

Me,Riven and kog the only ones alive and peeling 3v5 for kog was just a slow way to lose.

There's MANY ways to come back. Specially vs. teams that can be itemized against. The current meta lends itself VERY well to that and I think people just don't take the time or don't care to know how to do it and refuse to accept help.

WillHealForHonorJun 1, 20151 votes

thornmail the most underrated item imo

LankPantsJun 1, 20154 votes

I'd argue that the % damage items that are currently in the game aren't the best anti-tank items.

Just look at the main users of BotRK, outside of Vayne you have champs like Zed, Jax and Irelia. None of these champs buy BotRK in order to kill tanks, they buy it to kill sqiushies.

Most people look at % damage in the wrong way, they think it's equally good VS tanks, it's not. Why? Because tanks itemise resistances.

The 3 most powerful anti-tank items in the game right now are Black Cleaver, Last Whisper and Void Staff, and while this might surprise you items like BotRK are 3rd Tier tank killing items.

So what makes up the second tier? Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Deathcap and Ludans. It's just better to hit a tank with big flat damage numbers than it is to try to burn them down with % damage in 90% of cases.

TimeszJun 1, 20151 votes

There are actually several champions that make it work such as Ezreal (active procs Muramana), Twitch (one of the main BotRK users), Lucian and Kalista (Likes to get down with AS). Probably not THE best pick up on Lucian since Critty Edge is more in line with his bursty habits, but it still provides Lucian comparable DPS with Bloodthirster.

After the pretty significant buff of having life-steal apply on the % damage and cast range being buffed up to be the same as the average ADC range, it increases your damage output and sustain significantly against high-HP targets. If you're using Ezreal for example, it makes a great poke down tool against the frontline champions setting them up for an easy kill by your teams mage or assassin while with Twitch it makes a great backline assassination tool and punishes champions for pushing lanes alone.

So really, it comes down to a situational pick based on champion, role and what you're aiming for. With Vayne, it gives her dueling potential. Ezreal gains better poke, Twitch gains better assassination (and subsequently better teamfighting presence when used with Rat-a-ta-ta), Lucian levels his Damage Over Time, and Kalista just likes launching spears faster.

What really puts BotRK down on the tier list is the current popular ADCs which is Jinx, who doesn't need it for obvious reasons, Kalista, who enjoys other items just as much or more, Graves who relies more on burst, Sivir who doesn't need the additional AS (them ricochet resets), and Corks, who can't proc it with missiles (another reason why he isn't a candidate for Muramana.)

TL:DR Depending on the champion, items yield different results.

LankPantsJun 1, 20151 votes

There are actually several champions that make it work such as Ezreal (active procs Muramana), Twitch (one of the main BotRK users), Lucian and Kalista (Likes to get down with AS).

But then there's the other question. How many of these champs are actually good a killing tanks?

Ezreal is probably the worst ADC when it comes to tank killing, his damage kind of sucks and it's the main reason why he's fallen off so hard in popularity.

Twitch can be a great tank killer, but when he's trying to kill tanks he's more likely to build IE>PD or SS. He's also just heavily outclassed at this role by the likes of Ashe/Cait/Kog, which is why his assassin build is seen far more.

Kalista's renowned for being a trash tank killer unless she's snowballed a whole item ahead. She can kite them forever but thats about how long she'll take to kill them too.

Lucian doesn't normally itemise a BotRK, at least early. I don't think I've seen that since just after his release when no-one knew how to build him.

The only champ who I can think of who uses BotRK to enhance their already high tank killing capabilities (which is what people seem to think BotRK does) is Vayne.

khorneyMay 31, 20153 votes

Omg someone with some sense . I tried to explain this to this cass that was on my team I told her get rylais and liandrys because you'll do more damage nope she had archangel and dearhcap. Umm it's common sense for any champ that uses damage over time abilities cass, brand, teemo ,vel koz, malz so on and so forth you always get rylais and liandrys .

TheMoonManJun 1, 20151 votes

vels damage is more comparable to xerath than cassiopia since he doesnt have dots

khorneyJun 1, 20151 votes

You get it for his ult which is a dot

straight4freeJun 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Omg someone with some sense . I tried to explain this to this cass that was on my team I told her get rylais and liandrys because you'll do more damage nope she had archangel and dearhcap. Umm it's common sense for any champ that uses damage over time abilities cass, brand, teemo ,vel koz, malz so on and so forth you always get rylais and liandrys .

Cass does not buy Liandry's anymore.

khorneyJun 1, 20151 votes

Since when it still owns when you get it. Because your w and q beat the he'll out of people to know end

Champion SkinJun 1, 20151 votes

Cassiopeia generally builds and need tear/AA (for mana) Rylais (for slow + durability and safety) Void staff/Rabbadons (tons of damage) Zhonyas (safety) Ludens echo (it stacks rather fast with twin fang spam)

Liandries is probably on good/better then above mentioned items.. if cassiopeia isn't able to go in and spam her E and is only able to stand back and toss her Q/W As the current health burn barely gets to take effect if Cassiopeia is spamming her E on the target

khorneyJun 1, 20151 votes

How ever voidstaff is only worth it if they start building loads of Mr liandrys to me is better I don't build tear .... If you build roa archangel is what you need because you'll get more so if that's your plan

straight4freeJun 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

How ever voidstaff is only worth it if they start building loads of Mr liandrys to me is better I don't build tear .... If you build roa archangel is what you need because you'll get more so if that's your plan

It isn't that Liandry's is bad, just that there are other items that are much better for what the new Cass excels at. She needs higher AP on her items to make up for her fairly low ratios.

item 3020 item 3135 item 3089 item 3116 These are absolute core, you cannot switch these out without severely impacting your performance. Well, Sorc boots you probably could but that would be silly.

Then early game depending on the circumstances you'll either go for item 3027 or item 3040 .

Last item depends on who you're facing. If you need more offense, item 3285 . If they are heavy AP, item 3001 . If they are heavy AD, item 3157 . And if you really need to avoid CC or need defense, go item 3102 or item 3026 .

No room in there for Liandrys.

Edit: Void staff is a must have, no questions asked.

khorneyJun 1, 20151 votes

edit no its not

PiRoScOuTMay 31, 20152 votes

But my mobafire build path :)

TheMoonManJun 1, 20152 votes

vel doesent need liandries at all, max cdr and mana regen and he can spam spells all day with constant true damage procs. no tank should be able to live through a few cycles of vel spam

ProgressoJun 1, 20152 votes

The problem with the tank meta is it limits the champion pool more than most others because its basically have more/better meatshields with crowd control or be significantly better at controlling the map. It slows down the game a lot by focusing on late game and is generally slower and more boring.

Itemization is also a huge problem with tank metas. Top/Jungle have basically become 1 damage item maybe followed by defensive stats, mostly hp. I'd be surprised if less than 90% of junglers built cinderhulk in LCS since it's release.

Also Liandry's is a pretty bad item, even in this meta. Its only really built on champs that have A. Low cooldowns ( Lissandra ) B. No resource ( Rumble ) or C. Both ( Katarina ). Its almost always better to just build heavy ap on mages with Void Staff, Ludens, Deathcap, Abyssal, etc.

Champion SkinJun 1, 20151 votes

It is mostly built on champions with high base damages Like rumble and Katarina though Katarina should probably just sit on haunting guise and finish most other items before completing it Rumble makes much better use of it with his in built slow and that he isn't a burst champion and don't need to 100-0 people also makes it more useful

NazZomLordJun 1, 20152 votes

item 3153 item 3142 item 3071 item 3135 item 3151 item 3035 <---IDK bout you, but when im going pure tank, these items make me cringe.

Lawson WigsJun 1, 20151 votes

tis true

TimeszJun 1, 20152 votes

This is a topic that is heavily based on perspective and play style. As a long time utility mage user, high damage is always the way to go. Becauses spiking that enemy Rengar is more important than sitting there waiting for Liandries to do something that Luden's does better in seconds to multiple people but it comes down to champions.

Like you said Vel'koz mages good use of it in poking situations (like Ezreal with BotRK), but the only character to utilize Liandries to it's full potential is Brand due to his passive dealing a lot of damage over time.

Really, just buy Void Staff third item again.

Extreme TrollerJun 1, 20151 votes

kog maw with hurrican is pretty instant win against stacked tanks.

khorneyJun 1, 20151 votes

Well kog is like the anti tank adc longest range and fastest attack speed mixed with % hp damage

ZoofJun 1, 20151 votes

I think it's really important to note though that a lot of mages don't make very good use of Liandry's and the same goes for BotRK and ADC.

Think about it, Lux getting Liandry's somewhat weakens her whole kill potential combo (especially if you grab it early), she barely makes use of the bonus damage on slow and it gimps her mana regen too. A lot of ADC like Draven and Graves, who both rely if heavy damage serioously hurt themselves if they build BotRK before infinity+LW+PD/Shiv and it's easy to say "Just do a different build", an ADC quite literally needs these items due to the Infinity Edge nerf that everyone wanted for so long.

What I'm trying to say is that the Tanky Meta that we run in will obviously harm a lot of champions (people that can't %shred, peel or output mad dps) in the same way that Assassin Meta denied a lot of immobile champions in mid/adc.

I personally think tanks are just a tad overtuned right now, but honestly the problem isn't with the tanking, it's when tanks can kill adcs in scenarios that they shouldn't be able to.

KiimahriiJun 1, 20151 votes

Itemizing is sure a thing. As Ekko I had a Yasuo trying to kill me whenever possible (means having upper hand). I decided to go icegauntlet and he didn't know how to handle it so I turned the game very fast around until he went 3-17. Another game against another Yasuo I tried the same but it only put me further behind as he easily outtraded me anyway. Shit happens.

iainB85Jun 1, 20151 votes

Then you realize that even with BotRK as soon as Voli gets Thornmail you will kill yourself long before you kill him.

I laugh at people defending this tank meta like it's still not a glaring problem. Tanks are currently low risk, high reward picks... that is not good for balance no matter how you slice it.

fractalfantasiesJun 1, 20151 votes

Hypocrisy at its finest.

If a Zed main told you to itemize against his ulti you would go crazy.

Aboylova92Jun 1, 20151 votes

Two completely different issues. Zed is a manaless champ with pretty solid wave clear just coming into the game. All of these tanks were able to stack health and MR all game. There's a difference between itemizing at the start, or trying to itemize because of items being bought.