PSA: If you're behind, STOP trying to fight your laner.

Aboylova92·May 26, 2015·68 votes·5,923 views

It really isn't a difficult premiss, but I see it WAY too often. In my most recent ranked game I had this Riven begging to play top, so I obliged because I'm a nice guy. He does what all Riven's try to do, and do some early cheese, but gives up first blood. Looked top and it was a close fight so I didn't think too much of it. However he get's back to lane and not a minute later dies again. This proceeds for a total of 10 times in lane. Didn't matter she was 3 levels behind the Irelia, just kept on trying.

If not for me peeling the hell our of our carries, who were somewhat competent, with Voli, that game was a loss without a doubt. What's worse is not only is she feeding, she's also trash talking her laner. As much as I hate toxic/trash talking individuals, at least back it up if you're going to act that way. Playing safe and farming up is something I learned when I got out of bronze, if you're Gold, I'd expect at least something as basic as that, and not going 3-13.

TLDR: If you're behind, stop trying to fight and putting your team at an even bigger disadvantage when you inevitably die.

71 Comments

BluePolarizerMay 26, 201530 votes

There are some 1 trick ponies in gold who try the exact same cheese strat every single game. If it works, they snowball and win hard. If it fails, they keep trying because their brain only works that way, and feed hard.

AbodyHUN666May 27, 20154 votes

Almost like face hunters in hearthstone.

blueberrypancakeMay 27, 20155 votes

#huntards

bvcderrttyyhjjjkMay 27, 20152 votes

Yeah, just like those guys in school who learn everything by heart. As them something where they have to use their brain and they will just not know what to do LOL

Blue Moon WolfMay 27, 20151 votes

lane freezing... every... single... time

gafrattMay 26, 201511 votes

The moral of this story: don't play Riven

Clown ApocalypseMay 26, 201511 votes

Yes. So much this. Also invest in some defense, you already lost the damage war. Its all about mitigating damages and survival till you can find a way to be useful again.

SaintCrazyMay 26, 20157 votes

"Okay, I can totally kill them, I've killed plenty of folks before, I'm going in" "Man that was bullshit, I KNOW I can kill them, I'm going in" "Man THAT was bullshit too, I know I can kill them, I'm going in"

etc etc. It's not like the enemy's stats matter or anything, nah. Just press some buttons and they die, right?

Azizi As PieMay 27, 20152 votes

"Lol guys I ALMOST killed him" "Jeez guys stop feeding" "Im trying to farm and she has better items" Enemy top hasnt backed yet

This is so frustrating to me. Literally all they do is fail over and over. its like watching a bronze game.

DatalessMay 26, 20154 votes

Did you ever actually try to help the Riven before it was too late? Or did you just write her off and abandon her to get zoned away from CS and grow ever-increasingly frustrated and feeling powerless?

Aboylova92May 26, 20159 votes

No I tried to help, but what would happen is I'd ping I'm coming in around mid river, and she'd just IMMEDIATELY start to fight. She'd end up dying, but Voli does pretty good against Irelia and know enough about both of them to in turn kill her.

DatalessMay 26, 20152 votes

So if you tried your best to help, accept that and let the rest of it go. Making "shame posts" is really not the way to go.

SoMNiaMay 26, 20159 votes

What shame post? No names were named. It's an example of what not to do, in hopes that people will stop doing it. I also hope people will stop playing Riven top, since the team really doesn't need an AD assassin/melee carry up there, but that's another issue.

DatalessMay 26, 20153 votes

Even without naming names, making an angry/frustrated post and blaming a team member is a "shame post" in my eyes. You also made yourself out to be a hero by "peeling like hell for your carries, who were at least somewhat competent." That's just poor behavior. I can understand your frustration over having a losing lane, but the way you structured your post really made you come across as a bit of an ass.

And you don't want people to play Riven ? That's just mental. If someone wants to play a champion, let them play it, and back them up. You don't get to decide what people should or should not play, and you don't have any right to judge them for it. That's not being a team player. You're just trying to cover up your own frustrations with someone else by pretending to be doing a "public service".

You have half of a good intention in this post, and the other half is your own drama. Please keep it off of the forums.

SoMNiaMay 26, 201512 votes

I'm not concerned with what your eyes see. You're being really pretentious and condescending about your own subjective morals, and I don't have the patience for it. Also, this isn't my post. But you were too busy being high and mighty to notice I'm not the same person. You're the one creating drama here. Keep it off the forums, yourself. Either way, I'm done with this conversation.

AFK PushMay 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

What shame post? No names were named. It's an example of what not to do, in hopes that people will stop doing it. I also hope people will stop playing top, since the team really doesn't need an AD assassin/melee carry up there, but that's another issue.

Ill excuse the likes of Tryndamere Fiora and Rengar , because at the very least they are all very good splitpushers and safe besides fiora. Also, the time when you choose a carry top lane is when there is a tank jungle and a tank support, there is no need for 3 tanks in most team comps but most of the time I do play actual bruisers and tanks top lane like Renekton Hecarim Sion Maokai because the team usually calls for it.

Silents429May 26, 20153 votes

This is a lot more complex then them fighting, I mean yeah dummies fight when they shouldn't but if you have any desire to get at least 1 cs from a wave it is easy to get killed trying to farm at all. Even under tower.

When I am Garen or Volibear I always get first blood, and dominate my lane, and I don't let the enemy farm and have killed them without them fighting. Can't just say they always fight, minion wave stops saving your ass after you gain some levels.

Clown ApocalypseMay 27, 20152 votes

yeah but they sell defensive items. If you are getting your ass handed to you by garen and wont even buy a cloth armor for 300 gold or ruby for 400 and choose instead to buy a longsword for 390 you deserve every death. I never see many people get solo dived when they are tanky with full health under a turret. Unless you are fed as all hell you are only taking about 5 or so turret hits while fighting. I've literally ran two people in circles around my turret before and gotten doubles. Especially people like voli and garen that have to get in auto range. People just don't like to invest in defense, which leads to many an ass kicking in the rift.

Silents429May 27, 20151 votes

Plenty of times where neither of those items are enough. Garen and Voli both having executes, Voli being able to dish out a ton of magic damage with his ult, and Garens ult also dealing magic damage. No real quick and easy way of tanking them.

Clown ApocalypseMay 27, 20151 votes

Yes but the whole point is you don't fight them till you are low and stand there at your turret with no health waiting on them to kill you or for a gank. IF you buy defensive items and IF you farm at your turret voli and garen cant just dive you and kill you at full health. IF they are doing that to you your runes and masteries and build sucks. Theres not a lot anyone can do mid game about sucking with the champ they chose. If you know how to play the champ you are using you wont be cowering in fear at your turret anyways.

Yeah they have executes but you have to be low enough to be executed, otherwise you can run them in circles around the turret because they have to get pretty close to do damage to get you low to execute you. I like to bring them deep past my turret then flash to the other side of it so they have to walk around. By then you ate like 3-4 turret shots already and probably have to walk all the way through our jungle and around just to get back where you should be.

Also...if you waited till people were fed enough to just dive you and ignore turrets to start building defense......smh. If you die twice to the same person and don't start immediately building defense and keep building damage like it will eventually pan out.....that's insanity. Literally the definition of insanity. IF you cant farm and refuse to buy a gpt item....that's on you also. People don't like to build according to who they are up against, they just build whatever they are used to building.....even when its getting them stomped.

Silents429May 27, 20151 votes

Yes but the whole point is you don't fight them till you are low and stand there at your turret with no health waiting on them to kill you or for a gank. IF you buy defensive items and IF you farm at your turret voli and garen cant just dive you and kill you at full health. IF they are doing that to you your runes and masteries and build sucks. Theres not a lot anyone can do mid game about sucking with the champ they chose. If you know how to play the champ you are using you wont be cowering in fear at your turret anyways.

Okay but as I stated if you aren't sitting under tower both of them are capable (not just them btw) of forcing you into fights and dealing damage whether you want it or not. Also odd you mention being killed under tower when both Garen and Volibear are great at doing that. Garen's W and build and Volibears passive make it easy to do.

Yeah they have executes but you have to be low enough to be executed, otherwise you can run them in circles around the turret because they have to get pretty close to do damage to get you low to execute you. I like to bring them deep past my turret then flash to the other side of it so they have to walk around. By then you ate like 3-4 turret shots already and probably have to walk all the way through our jungle and around just to get back where you should be.

Sadly it takes a special kind of stupid to go in circles around the enemy when neither of them have to. Garen has a movement speed steroid and his E means either direction is going to damage you, Volibear can flip you and slow you to keep you in place.

Also...if you waited till people were fed enough to just dive you and ignore turrets to start building defense......smh. If you die twice to the same person and don't start immediately building defense and keep building damage like it will eventually pan out.....that's insanity. Literally the definition of insanity. IF you cant farm and refuse to buy a gpt item....that's on you also. People don't like to build according to who they are up against, they just build whatever they are used to building.....even when its getting them stomped.

Insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over and expecting different results, what you describe is not insanity, because every single time you are in lane it is different. And any outcome becomes possible. Not all top laners can just build tanky items and not be useless the rest of lane, some of them need to get a powerspike from items or levels. I do think building tanky is needed if your champion is capable of it and will make use of it otherwise extra safe and some jungler ganks is the best option for you.

Clown ApocalypseMay 27, 20151 votes

No...insanity is getting your ass kicked in a fight by the same guy 4 times and thinking its gonna go differently the 5th. You aren't EVER going to be able to outdamage that person without outside influences. In fact they will probably start building defense to mitigate what little damage YOU have. You can pull a million ifs out of your rear end to contradict what I'm saying but realistically you should just probably build some defense. Not doing so is insanity. If you cant farm and cant fight him cuz he does so much damage.......logic dictates you do something to reduce the damage he does to you. Not build more damage. I think that's whats so frustrating about this game is people don't even use basic logic or understand cause and effect.

Also...I don't top much, but when I do its vlad, teemo, heimer or someone like that. I dare you to dive any of them full health.. You gonna need backup buddy. I only play people I think are safe that I can still get a few minions with regardless of how fed u are. Turret diving sucks when your minion wave doesn't last long.

Silents429May 27, 20151 votes

I was under the impression you understood the dictionary definition of insanity but okay then.

I also don't see how stating a select few champions to not dive changes anything?

Clown ApocalypseMay 27, 20151 votes

build defense. to shorten it all down for you. IF you are getting that ass kicked start building defense. Sooner rather than later ( Or don't pick people that are so pathetic they can just be dove under a turret). The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. If he kicked your ass with no items and has more damage items than you as a result of said ass kicking you are repeatedly trying to 1 v 1 someone stronger than you So after like the second time yes its insanity. The first time we'll chalk up to being outplayed. The second one is gonna make me buy some armor or MR. But i'm not gonna rely purely on trying to outdamage them when common sense says I cant cuz they outdamage me.

Silents429May 27, 20151 votes

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. If he kicked your ass with no items and has more damage items than you as a result of said ass kicking you are repeatedly trying to 1 v 1 someone stronger than you So after like the second time yes its insanity.

No that isn't insanity, Everytime you go into lane its a different scenario, levels have gone up, stats change, minions are different health and power up, they might be in a different spot etc. That isn't insanity. Just being stupid.

IF you are getting that ass kicked start building defense. Sooner rather than later ( Or don't pick people that are so pathetic they can just be dove under a turret).

Boy you knocked out a lot of top laners with that criteria.

Clown ApocalypseMay 27, 20151 votes

I guess......as a guy who predominantly plays tanks and bruisers you clearly understand the value of defense, you just want to argue. You win. You can be right. Charging in to fight the person who kicked your ass a second ago and is even stronger now isn't insanity at all, it's totally logical. Sounds Legit.

Silents429May 27, 20152 votes

There a reason you are under the impression I am saying it's fine to charge into fights over and over again? I never stated to do such a thing or defended it, I just said a lot of top laners force fights and you can do little to stop it.

Phoenix Kotori May 26, 20153 votes

TLDR: If you're behind, stop trying to fight and putting your team at an even bigger disadvantage when you inevitably die.

Eh, you can still fight but you have to wait for opportunity a misplay (ie they accidentally eat a tower shot) or you hit a certain power spike in the match up.

As there is a clear difference between that and trying to fight the second you get back to lane when you die.

Aboylova92May 26, 20154 votes

And that's what I meant, but when I see you blatently ignoring CS to fight in bad positions, which is what she was doing, you're just messing up. Believe me I know you can fight when they mess up, but trying to win by sheer brute force isn't going to get them anywhere, and simply not losing the lane any harder can allow you to win the game.

Phoenix Kotori May 26, 20153 votes

True brute force after being behind is generally a poor plan.

Lich My AsheMay 27, 20153 votes

Darius Singed health is so low guys! I can get him I know it!

theragingnerdMay 26, 20152 votes

unless your jax just 1v3 with a tf botrk and randuins this is a personal experience

JalkanMay 26, 20152 votes

Riven players, man.

WutsKrakenMay 27, 20152 votes

Depends on who you're against

If you're vs someone like Riven Fiora Darius who can quickly snowball a lane even with a slight advantage. Yeah good luck NOT fighting them because they will force the trade and win it

ScramrailMay 27, 20152 votes

I fed an Irelia once as Riven because I literally couldn't go anywhere near the minion wave without her chunking me for 1/3 my hp. She had complete lane control and froze the wave constantly so all I could try to do was leech xp, but even that ended up getting me killed because by the time the wave got to my tower and I could finally try to farm OH LOL THERE GOES THE REST OF MY HP INSTANTLY GG RITO. I think I ended up dying 5 times to her in laning phase and having next to no farm. I literally could do nothing. Roam? Id end up feeding other lanes because I was so far behind. Farm jungle? Hardly a worthwhile trade off and my jungler would likely pitch a fit.

Sometimes theres really nothing you can do and end up feeding your lane opponent because youre not super-Korean level player.

Clown ApocalypseMay 27, 20151 votes

I had a game where I was vlad against j4 top lane. We invaded red and I was a level behind when I got to lane. They ganked our jungler at his blue because he had to b after red. at this point I'm level 3 and jarvan was level 5. I was 4 when he hit 6. And he had blue. Tore my ass up I wont lie. I was 1/4/0 at one point.

Know what I did? I built armor and hp on vlad so he couldn't just dive me and instajib me anymore. After my jungler fed him, needless to say, I never saw him again. j4 got the first turret pretty easy. I fell back to the second turret. Held out there for a lil while. He had me all the way to inhib turret and a funny thing happened.....he couldn't do enough damage to me to stop me from farming and healing anymore and I was holding him back pretty well thanks to ryleis, liandrys, hourglass,tabis and thornmail. We lost that game still but I finished 8/8/9 and died the least on my team in spite of getting my ass handed to me top lane. Everyone else...14 deaths or more.

ScramrailMay 27, 20151 votes

That's a bit of an extreme example though because youre vlad, so you have sustain up the wazzoo and actually have a point in which you can outsustain your opponent just by being vlad and having some armor.

In my example I had no such solutions. Build armor? Irelia has true damage. Build health? Be completely irrelevant in fights. Build damage? Get torn up by Irelia still. I elected to go for a bit of health and damage, to try to survive better but still be relevant by building a Black Cleaver, but by the time I got it 20 minutes in my team surrendered.

If I had a right answer in that scenario, I sincerely don't know what it was. And sitting at my tower for 5 minutes waiting for the wave to slowly but surely push to me doesn't make much sense as an option.

Clown ApocalypseMay 27, 20152 votes

Actually its not extreme at all. I built ARMOR on vlad bruh. An ap carry I stacked armor on. HP counters true damage. A randuins would have reduced her damage output greatly by reducing her attack speed and damage her basics did. The true damage on her skills isn't really that oppressive until shes fed. If you wait till shes more than 2 kills up to start building defense...bad call. Being tanky doesn't make you irrelevant in team fights, it just limits your kill potential. Its already been established you probably wont be the one to carry if you are losing your lane.

Take up a supporting role. You might not be able to kill irelia, but guess what...if you get close to their adc you will probably murder them. There are 5 people you are playing against, not just that irelia. all your solutions revolved around you just building hp or more damage or both when the solution was hp and armor. Riven has a knockup and a stun. Its hard to be useless with 2 forms of cc If you build to tank damage. Its not ideal on riven, but your ideal build obviously isn't working in this scenario. I've won with tank teemo before. Tank heimerdinger. You don't have to beat irelia 1 v 1 to win the game, remember that. Just get it to the point where she cant just kill you whenever she wants and go help your team and pray they come help you.

Hell if you can just get beefy enough to keep her busy top lane while the rest of your team kicks ass, her score wont even matter. Losing lane sucks. Losing the match sucks even more. Just because one happens doesn't guarantee the other.

AFK PushMay 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I fed an Irelia once as Riven because I literally couldn't go anywhere near the minion wave without her chunking me for 1/3 my hp. She had complete lane control and froze the wave constantly so all I could try to do was leech xp, but even that ended up getting me killed because by the time the wave got to my tower and I could finally try to farm OH LOL THERE GOES THE REST OF MY HP INSTANTLY GG RITO. I think I ended up dying 5 times to her in laning phase and having next to no farm. I literally could do nothing. Roam? Id end up feeding other lanes because I was so far behind. Farm jungle? Hardly a worthwhile trade off and my jungler would likely pitch a fit.

Sometimes theres really nothing you can do and end up feeding your lane opponent because youre not super-Korean level player.

I'm going to be that guy and blame it on the fact that you chose riven resulting in that scenario. Almost no riven will invest in any defensive item until they get like 2-3 damage items. I partially blame the design of "my shield builds off of ad so I'll just build more ad." You should've invested into at least a very early item 3047 and a item 1053 which would have made your life easier. Also, a item 1011 or a item 3082 are very cost effective items, so it wouldn't hurt to sit on either of those early since Rivens almost always build a item 3143 as one of their last items. That's just my two cents.

Joe DreddMay 26, 20151 votes

I hate stupid fucking posts like these

Dunkrius2gMay 27, 20151 votes

UR COMMENT NOT NEEDED

Joe DreddMay 27, 20151 votes

Seriously though. People make this shit out to be a lot simpler that it is. A lot of times all you can do is beg for the jungler for help. I've personally fucked people ridiculously hard as Renek. After a certain point, the only way for them to even get near their tower is to fucking teleport to it, because I have it warded if they try to walk around. And freezing doesn't work. I fucking dare you to try and freeze lane right outside of tower range. You try it and you're chunked to half health. try it again and I dive you and you die.

Clown ApocalypseMay 27, 20151 votes

and I bet the people u rekt ridiculously didn't build a lick of armor until it was far too late

bvcderrttyyhjjjkMay 27, 20151 votes

SO many people do this even Golds and Plats. And it is SO bad for the entire team! Please don't do it, you'll only look like a feeding idiot. Doing bad in your lane? Stay safe and farm, and wait for teamfights to start. If you just chill and do that you can win so many games after losing the lane.

AFK PushMay 27, 20151 votes

Yep, sounds like the average Riven player.

Kuroi86May 27, 20151 votes

Gotta love when a fotm Riven gets wrecked lol.

But seriously, item 3047 item 3071 can go a LONG way when you're behind in lane.

Chespin2013May 27, 20151 votes

thank you for posting this i had a fiora top lane vs a pantheon and she kept dying over and over again and i tried to tell her panth has high early game damage and to build some defensive and start with cloth armor never once build any armor throughout the entire game and pantheon was basically allowed to roam and stomp the rest of the lanes please people if u know u cant win via trades build some defensive items it helps u survive in lane and to cs and get caught up to be useful for ur team

MmaqTt7b0KMay 28, 20151 votes

There are many factors which go into winning a fight when behind a kill... but there definitely is comeback potential... What are their items? If they got some early boots and a flask and health potions, but you went for full combat stats that means you would probably win a 1v1 or 2v2 (with junglers involved), or maybe they were 30 gold short from getting a dorans ring or longsword, meaning that if you managed to buy a lot of combat stats when you went back you'd be roughly on same terms with your opponent...

just checking their ad/ap and understanding their powerspikes, while also taking into consideration their summoner spells/abilities increases your chance of winning a 1v1 when behind...

if fizz burnt his ult, ignite, and flash, you could all in him in the very near future, etc.

TMITMay 28, 20151 votes

It's nice to say, but good players can really screw you in lane if you die early. It can easily become a situation where you're zoned out of CS because getting near the wave = engage (and your opponent freezes too, so you can't farm under turret). I've been on both sides of this. I had someone die to me early as Garen, so I just sat slightly outside turret wave (I could afford to tank minions to keep lane there) and if they tried to even CS I'd just kill or nearly kill, so they couldn't. It's hard for players to wait patiently hiding to sponge XP while they fall behind 40-50 CS. I've had it done to me too.

And if you do just hide from CS or roam, then everyone on the team gets angry because you're so far behind/let enemy farm anyway. I agree it's still better than dying constantly (which denies you gold AND levels), but letting someone CS uncontested is hard too. Maybe your jungler can bail you, but with some champs a good player can manipulate the lane freely while you're dead and then zone you. The guy I zoned out as Garen was screwed; because I had lane frozen just outside my own turret, I was functionally ungankable while able to zone him constantly.

It's hard to shift to a mindset of "I've lost lane so best I can do now is mitigate the damage and hope the other lanes win", and easy to fool yourself into believing you can still win your lane. I've gotten better at it over time but coming back from 1-2 early deaths against a decent lane opponent is really brutal, especially because in most cases, they're ahead because they outplayed you in the first place so now you have to be even better than you were when you already lost to just break even.

I usually just try to protect turret and get into teamfight if I'm losing lane. It's a terrible feeling but it is what it is.

Aeolian MelodiesMay 28, 20151 votes

PSA: sometimes it's the enemy whose ahead that wants to fight you, not the other way around. Depending on the match up you can't always disengage from him/her. Let's not mention getting straight up diven when the jungler shows up.