"We need an Infinity Edge/Death Cap for durable champions"

Done25·Jan 22, 2015·1 votes·854 views

The forums ate the huge post I made, so here's the short version for now:

The team meat shield need a late game amp item.

~~Guardian Angel. Add a Giant's Belt into the recipe and Tanks finally have a big ticket item to aim for.~~

~~Giant's Belt + Chain Vest + Negatron Cloak =~~

~~500 HP~~ ~~50 Armor~~ ~~50 Magic Resist~~ ~~30% HP/MP revive passive~~ ~~3600~3800 gold~~

~~What do you guys think?~~

Scrapped since no one likes it. New idea.

GA Restores more HP/Mana, but you're not invulnerable during the 3 second revive. Think Anivia's Egg.

Durable champions are more likely to survive the revival, but squishy people like Vayne or Tristana would just get exploded.

20 Comments

Meep ManJan 22, 20152 votes

Make it more specific for who it is meant for, such as Melee Only and modified stats it gives. Maybe % increased BONUS armor and magic resist as a health item. ADCs and APCs would make no use of that.

PPPPPPPPPPPP270Jan 22, 20151 votes

This seems too useful for anyone.

Done25Jan 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This seems too useful for anyone.

Yea, but would Vayne prefer it over her PD?

PPPPPPPPPPPP270Jan 22, 20152 votes

As a final item it would be used on Vayne.

Remember when GA oneveryone was a thing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoQ6FdaQwvM

Also there was an Urgot pick.

Sightless66Jan 22, 20151 votes

Who says I'd get it instead of the PD? I can buy both. I get a defensive item on an ADC, and there's certainly no downside to getting this one. It's perfect.

Done25Jan 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Who says I'd get it instead of the PD? I can buy both. I get a defensive item on an ADC, and there's certainly no downside to getting this one. It's perfect.

Because it costs as much as a Blood Thrister or Infinity Edge. So unless it's a 40+ min game and the adc has 15,000+ gold, in which case you suck and deserve to lose to Vayne, they wont be able to afford it without ruining their damage.

Sightless66Jan 22, 20151 votes

I'm not saying that an ADC will get it early. That's irrelevant. The point is that I can get it on an ADC (any one of them, not just Vayne), and it will give me every defensive stat that I could possibly want.

Let me make my point clear. I'm saying that the problem with your item is that it isn't just a slot-efficient defense item for tanks. It's a slot-efficient defense item for absolutely anybody, and it has nothing that actually really necessitates that a tank buy it. It is the absolute perfect defensive item to fill the fifth or sixth slot on an ADC, it's the perfect defense item for a bruiser, it's the perfect late-game defensive item for an assassin. It serves anyone who just needs something to make them tanker. It has nothing that actually works well with tanks, and this is a major problem because a major issue tanks have is that other classes can use defensive items better than they can.

The problem with your item is that it is just a huge slot-efficient chunk of defensive stats. Every single class in the game wants that. I'd love to be able to fit more defensive stats into a late game ADC build, and I need it more as an ADC than as a tank because I can only really get one defensive item. GA passive also helps squishies a ton more than tanks because squishies are more likely to have people overcommit to kill them and they are more likely to get picked off.

Your item would make squishy classes a lot more than it would help tanks because it increases the amount of defensive stats that they can have in their only defensive item by a huge amount, while the difference that having one slot efficient item will make for a full-tank is much smaller.

If you want to have an "Infinity Edge/Death Cap for durable champions", then it needs to be like Infinity Edge and Death Cap and give a defensive stat multiplier or some kind of effect that rewards you for having defensive stats instead of just giving you a huge chunk of them.

Done25Jan 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying that an ADC will get it early. That's irrelevant. The point is that I can get it on an ADC (any one of them, not just Vayne), and it will give me every defensive stat that I could possibly want.

Let me make my point clear. I'm saying that the problem with your item is that it isn't just a slot-efficient defense item for tanks. It's a slot-efficient defense item for absolutely anybody, and it has nothing that actually really necessitates that a tank buy it. It is the absolute perfect defensive item to fill the fifth or sixth slot on an ADC, it's the perfect defense item for a bruiser, it's the perfect late-game defensive item for an assassin. It serves anyone who just needs something to make them tanker. It has nothing that actually works well with tanks, and this is a major problem because a major issue tanks have is that other classes can use defensive items better than they can.

The problem with your item is that it is just a huge slot-efficient chunk of defensive stats. Every single class in the game wants that. I'd love to be able to fit more defensive stats into a late game ADC build, and I need it more as an ADC than as a tank because I can only really get one defensive item. GA passive also helps squishies a ton more than tanks because squishies are more likely to have people overcommit to kill them and they are more likely to get picked off.

Your item would make squishy classes a lot more than it would help tanks because it increases the amount of defensive stats that they can have in their only defensive item by a huge amount, while the difference that having one slot efficient item will make for a full-tank is much smaller.

If you want to have an "Infinity Edge/Death Cap for durable champions", then it needs to be like Infinity Edge and Death Cap and give a defensive stat multiplier or some kind of effect that rewards you for having defensive stats instead of just giving you a huge chunk of them.

The "multiplier" is the passive. Perhaps instead of the 500 HP we can just greatly increase the power of the passive? So the more health you have the more you get back.

Chain Vest + Negatron Cloak + 2000ish combine cost 50 Armor 50 MR Restores 50~100% of your HP+Mana upon death, but you're not invulnerable during revive. (Like Anivia)

This prevents it from being too good on the 1600 HP Vayne, but the Rammus with 3000 HP is going to be very happy.

Sightless66Jan 22, 20151 votes

GA's passive isn't great for tanks. Coming back to life just isn't nearly as useful for them. It's a lot of time when you aren't being impactful, when the fight is moving away from you, when you get out of position to actually lock down the important targets. I mean, you'd come back to life, and then what? If your job is fight control, then coming back after you have completely lost control of the fight just doesn't really do anything for your team. Even back in the 5-man GA golden days, tanks would sometimes skip on getting the GA in favor of more general items, at least until the support had finished their GA.

As for making them non-invulnerable during revive, that won't really solve the problem. Vayne won't be 1,600 HP. If she's level 18, she'll have at least 2,400 with over 100 armor (and probably over 100 MR) because she has this item. It is an extremely good defensive item, so it will give the carries the tools to survive through their revival in a ton of situations. Besides, even without the passive, it's still great for them. You could completely remove the GA passive for carries and it would still be a great carry item because of how slot-efficient it would be with all of the flat stats. It gives every defensive stat you could need. It takes you from "not-tanky" to "pretty decently tanky" in one item.

An item with a ton of flat slot-efficient stats just isn't what tanks need. That is what carries need. Carries want the one king-tank item so they can get as many defensive stats as possible in only one slot. Tanks need something else. They might need more slot-efficiency on their items in general so that you still need a combination of tank items to be tanky (because if there is one king item, carries can use that as their only defense). Or, they might need better utility attached to their items so they have better CC and effects for buying tank items. Or, they need a multiplier that really rewards tank stats.

soliznoelJan 22, 20151 votes

this item is too well rounded, it could be built on things like riven(who isn't op) but making her too hard to kill and still be able to put out damage if she builds it third or fourth

Done25Jan 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

this item is too well rounded, it could be built on things like riven(who isn't op) but making her too hard to kill and still be able to put out damage if she builds it third or fourth

It would give her something to buy other than the tank shredding Last Whisper.

BorkahnJan 22, 20151 votes

Change it to a percentile for the armor and mr and i think you will be able to narrow it down to just tanks using it if that's what you are looking for. like maybe 50+ 30% of armor (likewise on mr). gives more reason for a tank to have over all others.

Done25Jan 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Change it to a percentile for the armor and mr and i think you will be able to narrow it down to just tanks using it if that's what you are looking for. like maybe 50+ 30% of armor (likewise on mr). gives more reason for a tank to have over all others.

I think the problem with that is that by the time it would be effective everyone would already have Last Whisper

BorkahnJan 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think the problem with that is that by the time it would be effective everyone would already have Last Whisper

So Last Whisper would not be as effective. Look at it as ok I raised my armor and mr by 30% only to have last whisper take 35% away? So if I have 200 armor and 200 mr (hypothetically) then what I suggested would raise it to 310 a piece. Then enter Last whisper to only take the armor down to 201. Now like I said this is all hypothetical but, observe that you would still have to be hitting someone with 201 armor and oh by the way they have an extra 500 health on top of that because of the other attributes. And suppose you do kill them after all the time you put into it, they still revive with a substancial amount of health and can still get away. See what I'm drawing here.

Originally with Last Whisper into only the original 200 armor you would be looking at hitting something with only 130 armor. That 71 armor makes a huge difference. Last Whisper or not, They still will be able to take a punch.

If you do not understand how 30% added to 200 would yield 310, observe that it's 50 armor+30% of total armor level added to the 200.

SmokingPuffinJan 22, 20151 votes

What do you guys think?

Proposed item would be most popular on ADCs.

LongFur FoxJan 22, 20151 votes

What tanks need when talking about a big ticket item is not tank stats. As weird as it sounds then tanks want utility more than tank stats. If you are giving me an item that gives mr, armor and health everyone is going to build it. If it gives % extra mr, armor and health bruiser will build it but i might not build it on a tank if it means giving up an aura and the revive passive is nearly useless on a tank as whoever they want to protect is most likely dead by the time they revive. If you want to give me a big ticket must have item have it amplify my auras, reduce cd on items or allow me to transfer any dmg my carry takes to me. Especially the last one i would buy even if it meant i took true dmg.

Done25Jan 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongFur Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hGlJG6kE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-01-22T12:39:37.773+0000)

What tanks need when talking about a big ticket item is not tank stats. As weird as it sounds then tanks want utility more than tank stats. If you are giving me an item that gives mr, armor and health everyone is going to build it. If it gives % extra mr, armor and health bruiser will build it but i might not build it on a tank if it means giving up an aura and the revive passive is nearly useless on a tank as whoever they want to protect is most likely dead by the time they revive. If you want to give me a big ticket must have item have it amplify my auras, reduce cd on items or allow me to transfer any dmg my carry takes to me. Especially the last one i would buy even if it meant i took true dmg.

What Tanks need specifically is enough durability to survive the initial burst of a team fight. Most Tank damage comes in the form of AoE, so they need to be able to fight multiple targets at once in order to apply their full force. (Amumu, Sejuani, Rammus, Galio.)

LongFur FoxJan 23, 20151 votes

yeah but they can already do that with normal tank items. No I don't buy the "I always get bursted by the 1/6 fizz even though i have 3 mr items". Ideally a tank has only just enough survivability that he survives the initial burst (which mainly comes from mages and/or adc not assassins), cast his spells which lock up people and then have low enough hp for him to stay a somewhat priority target even though he does no dmg.

Think of it this way: If i am playing a tank with infinite durability (an extreme case to show my point) but no utility or damage then the enemy just does not focus me. Ideally you should have enough utility to remain a priority target but enough to not die instantly.

For that reason I would say that tanks can get plenty tanky but they need more utility to stay relevant after their abilities are on cd.