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A guy who plays Pen champs saying we need tankier tanks

Hammermancer··38 votes·3,360 views

I'm not saying its the only issue, But i miss a tankier league of legends... when tanky damage was the way to go... Not mega tanky, just tanky with damage.

It often feels as though i have more effective health building two lifesteal items and three crit items on Graves then if I were to go.. Idunno.. Juggernaut Chogath or juggernaut Nunu

That's possibly because we have massive reduction in power of tank items for being "Too good" on damage champions. But in all honesty most of these items werent the problems, it was damage output of champions, so by nerfing an item into unsability by these champions, you're actually just weakening every champion that uses said item and ignoring the actual problem.

Let's say that all of the sudden item 3022 started getting abused by some absurd champions.. Idunno let's say Orianna Lux Tristana Kennen (because they all have a good amount of AA's in rotation but... you wouldn't normally build mallet on them)

now the power of the item is based on it's tank to damage ratio... let's say you rip off... 15 damage and add a bunch of health to it....

ok, but that now invalidates many builds, sometimes entire playstyles, because people do their math on these builds. The AD on mallet is almost non-existent, whereas the tank stats are a bit high.

the issue would clearly be that itemization for these champions isn't being realized enough, or that their kits are too strong... it's not that you need to rework frozen mallet for the umpteenth time.

In addition to this we see so many ways to just flat out ignore defensive stats., armor tanks just get hit with 75% armor shred from item 3071 item 3036

and if they're armor/health tanks we might just see a item 3153

Quite frankly we're at a point in the game that has three MR/AD items with fairly decent stats and Mages are still able to ignore most of that with their item 3135 item 3151 item 3020 item 3001 ..... and tanks would get hit just as hard by that if it weren't for a key factor

Pen was a mage thing, %HP was an ad carry thing. there WAS pen, but it cost a lot in terms of required AD, the idea before was that you needed more damage to bring down that yasuo before he gets to you, now it's literally that you have so much damage you should just ignore parts of his armor because screw it you're critting enough anyways

I should not be able to take a item 3071 item 3036 item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 and literally two shot a Malphite or a DrMundo NOBODY should be able to kill a tank in two shots, and no tank should be immortal, even if he's three levels under a tank should feel like a tank. I did that varus cheese not too long ago, actually i do it quite a bit whenever i see a lot of immobile tanks on the enemy team... but the concept of the build should not exist as it does, i shouldn't be able to deal that kind of penetration to a full tank

if i'm fighting a taric with 400 armor (Which is... i guess reasonable) I'm going to be ignoring 249 to 282 armor right off the bat, then with 5 instances of physical damage i'll also be hitting for another 100 Armor...

That taric now has... 18 armor... 18 not really enough to overcome my AD

Ok with more reasonable numbers

100 armor= Massive overkill negated (You're over about 32 armor pen)

so essentially we need 400 armor + builds to start having any armor against this

which cuts out a lot of room for the tank's damage item if he is also presumably building some HP and Magic resist

Now let's factor in the %hp damage, say that as that varus i skipped boots and went for item 3153 (Actually i usually skips edge of night and go for that but lets 6 item ham because fuck it)

that's almost 100% armor pen on virtually everyone in the game, over 900 damage on q alone, and auto attacks dealing 8% current hp+ 15% map hp every 3 autos and a proc... and varus is considered a weak anti-tank right now.

Now i'm gonna be honest, that's a lot of damage even though that's considered a weak adc right now and a suboptimal build by far, because why bother with 900 damage q's when you can crank out about 1400 damage on auto attacks

Things have gotten so rediculou that it seems like i'm having a much better time as item 3031 Garen then as actually building any tank on garen... because tankiness is becoming even more of a wasted stat... like dark mane's jokes have become

59 Comments

EndlessSorcerer17 votes

The current mastery system just amplifies damage across the board.

Even ignoring the raw stat bonuses (i.e. Precision, Fervor of Battle), the Ferocity and Cunning trees are loaded with damage amplification and bonus damage.

Worsening matters, the Resolve tree lacked scaling (or noticeable) defensive masteries for the entirety of S6. While the addition of Courage of the Colossus and Fearless have somewhat remedied this, it doesn't really solve the main problem.

Personally, I would be ecstatic if we reverted to the S4/S5 mastery systems.

Ralanr15 votes

Kinda wish they'd revert the nerfs to veteran scars. I think they changed it so ADCs could benefit from it, which can't be right because ADCs don't take resolve.

PunnedIt2 votes

{quoted}

The current mastery system just amplifies damage across the board.

Even ignoring the raw stat bonuses (i.e. Precision, Fervor of Battle), the Ferocity and Cunning trees are loaded with damage amplification and bonus damage.

Worsening matters, the Resolve tree lacks has lacked scaling (or noticeable) defensive masteries for the entirety of S6. While the addition of Courage of the Colossus and Fearless have somewhat remedied this, it doesn't really solve the main problem.

Personally, I would be ecstatic if we reverted to the S4/S5 mastery systems.

Who matters in an adc meta

Adcs (It's their meta) Assassins (Threats to adcs) Supports (Who feed their adcs)

Who matters in a tank meta

Tanks (It's their meta)

While I agree that tanks could use some mild love right now, you'd be hard pressed to argue that the juggernaut meta was a healthier state for the game than the current adc one. Is the adc meta perfect? No. But the adc meta lets more roles matter.

EndlessSorcerer4 votes

The last real tank meta we had (i.e. S5 after Cinderhulk nerfs and before Juggernaut update) was rather well balanced in that every role had their purpose to fulfill.

  • Tanks locked down opponents and soaked damage.

  • ADCs provided sustained DPS to kill tanks and take objectives.

  • Assassins and diving fighters killed ADCs and mages.

  • Supports protected ADCs to keep them alive.

  • Mages provided magic damage along with burst and/or waveclear and/or CC.

I don't particularly think tanks need help at the moment since many remain influential (if only because everyone else on the team likely picked a squishy carry they can protect and enable).

However, damage has to be nerfed throughout the game (and if that means reducing the durability of tanks, so be it). Squishy champions will die almost instantly to pretty much everything even if they aren't focused down, which greatly warps the balance of champions.

Hell, that is the main reason assassins have been building tanky for the past season. They don't need more damage to kill squishy champions (due to masteries) and they need durability to survive long enough to get their burst damage off.

Felvyne1 votes

ADCs where useless and easily blown up even by tanks most part of the games, they needed 3 dmg items before even scratch somebody...

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Late-game champions needing items to deal damage isn't exactly an issue.

Tanks are supposed to be strong in the early and mid-game while ADCs are supposed to be strong in the mid and late-game.

Felvyne1 votes

Yes, but strong and weak don't mean indestructible and utterly shit. It's true that ADCs mustn't define the early and midgame, but they shouldn't be forced to play praying they arent noticed 'till minutr 30 when the 4v4 becomes 5v5

Chief Mayonnaise11 votes

We don't need tankier tanks. We need less damage.

LankPants8 votes

Less damage is equivalent to tankier everyone. You can really move in either direction and get the same result.

Hammermancer5 votes

I'd argue we go a little in both direction

Slightly tankier, slightly less damage

Leetri11 votes

I remember when everyone on the boards were crying about the tank meta and how the games were 50 minute wet noodle fights. As a tank lover I'm biased towards longer games with beefy tanks, but there's obviously people who think differently. You gotta remember that no matter what Riot does another group will rise up and complain. "Assassins kill me instantly with no counterplay" <-> "Assassins are useless and can't kill anyone" "The games take forever and tanks are too strong" <-> "The games are too short and tanks are too weak" "ADCs decide the game by themselves" <-> "ADCs are useless and mages do their job better"

TwinkiePro1 votes

Those like myself who complained about the tank meta were complaining about the damage dished out by these tanks who could take on 2 or 3 people at a time and still kill the ADC. We aren't complaining about them being tanky, but dishing out what they take is terrifying.

Dataless9 votes

Did someone say TANKY TANK WITH DAMAGE?!?!?!??!?!?!?Poppy

The Yetii Rider5 votes

Tanks don't need to build damage, that's stupid.

Nunu and Cho tanking for 10 seconds is good enough because they get multiple CC effects off. When tanks deal damage they become a problem. Tanks should deal barely any damage and be more focused on peel and initiating.

Ralanr7 votes

Tanks just need enough damage to farm lanes and clear the jungle decently. Sadly this amount of damage still seems painful for squishies.

EndlessSorcerer4 votes

Squishy champions are generally fine if they get a single resistance item (i.e. Guardian Angel, Maw of Malmortius, Abyssal Scepter, etc).

Sadly, many seem to believe that they need six purely-offensive items.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Except I still get half healthed by a full Tank Poppy even though I have Zhonya's.

Ralanr3 votes

Except now you have more time to run and survive.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Implying you can run from Tanks with their assload of CC and Deadman's.

Ralanr2 votes

Yes. You can.

Anidan2 votes

What immobile bastard are you playing that you can't run away from a lot of the tanks if they don't kill you quickly? Your profile name lets me get a guess that you play, or at least like, Ahri, so that certainly isn't that champion you're complaining about not being able to do it on...

And if you're on someone immobile, then you ran the risk of not being able to escape as soon as you chose an immobile champion so that's on you.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

idk, look at my summoner's champion mastery and tell me.

Point is, I try to stay unbiased as much as I can in my comments, it shouldn't matter what champ I play.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

{quoted}

Tanks just need enough damage to farm lanes and clear the jungle decently. Sadly this amount of damage still seems painful for squishies.

All we need to clear the jungle is Cinderhulk. We don't need high damage tank items like pre-nerf Iceborn or Sunfire Cape or Thornmail (Thornmail does a crapload of damage against juggernauts/divers who don't have life steal).

Ralanr2 votes

I like my sunfire cape thank you very much.

dapositiveviking1 votes

i like my exploding shield for jungle clears

Anags1 votes

That wouldn't work. If your clear is too slow then you can't really jungle.

It's probaby the most important factor in a jingle champ.

And a lot of champs have built in sustain now or access to lifesteal.

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

Cho does plenty of damage to squishes w/o damage items as he has ridiculous base damages as is, I am glad his tanky/AP build fallen out of viability since he was basically a tanky burst mage.

forresto1 votes

I've seen him played as an ap assasin, it works hilariously well sometimes.

Hammermancer2 votes

this post was not at all about tanks getting more damage, this post was about tank stats being too easily killed and bruisers needing better defensive stats on their damage items

a bruiser isn't a tank by the way, bruisers are Tanky damage or damagey tanks... i'd argue that the bruiser range is basically 90% of top lane non-pure tanks..

And the fact is that pure tanks are getting shut down easy, and non-pure tanks get shut down harder because there are ways to easily get 75% pen with only one extra item slot Since all adcs already build either item 3036 oritem 3033 and a mastery you probably already have that 52%, so you can simply grab a item 3071 on the majority of adcs or casters without it being too bad, sure i wouldn't go for it on jhin.. but ashe, lucian, kali, corki, hell even tristana and cait can do some hard work with this swapping out a single item for it. That's 77% armor pen, on your ad carry

then you got every ad caster out there from darius to riven to jayce and even irelia can build those items, so even they can ignore armor.

the fact is no two item combo should shut down an entire class of character, items that provide complete counter-ability are toxic, items which even the playing field against an approximately equally fed and skilled opponent should be considered a good thing.

the fact is that damage outputs are HIGHER and tank outputs are LOWER, Attack damage as a stat category is either too diverse and flexible or all of the other stats are too rigid and inflexible. Randuins omen and a thornmail doesn't counter crit anymore but people sure can have 40% to 70% crit just fine and still negate 75% of armor class if they chose to, and in some situations that is fine.

The state of AD

On the tanky side

Juggernauts: Not tanky enough outside of teams that can't understand counterbuilding Tanky bruisers: not enough damage Bruisers: not enough tank Skirmishers: so burstable Sustain tanks: Dude just build a mortal reminder...

on the damage side:

Assassins: Who exactly are they countering? They're supposed to be based on outplays but as a class they literally depend on snowballing, eventually losing that momentum. Yasuo: still yasuo ADCs: somewhat the same as assassins, they depend almost entirely on the snowball.

The game has become stack expensive damage or lose for any AD champion in the mid or bot lane, and more than half of them in the jungle. I rarely see Nautilus, Trundle, Shen, even Taric anymore. Volibear might get a return... I hope... But again we're so dependent on snowballing bot lane that we see stats claiming that 70% of games where bot wins lane, bot wins the game. That's too huge.

And then we have that scenario being countered now by double ap bot lane mages like a brand and a malzahar.

again the pace of this game is too statically quick, even in lower ELOs games are a lot quicker right now, because people are hopping in, getting two kills, and then winning the game out of stats more than strategy or skill.. because any jungler by now knows that their job is to just roam mid and bot getting the carries fed.

Juul993 votes

Am I then only one noticing how much bs this post is?

First of all, we're in a tank meta at the moment, tanks aren't weak at all. if anything they should be nerfed.

Your calculations are also comepletely wrong on the armor pen side. Let's say I as Jinx wanna try to kill this Taric with 400 armor and 4k hp, with the build you described above. And let's say we're both lvl 18 (for lethality purpose). You have no attack speed at all and you have probably around 400 AD and with berseks you have aroun 1 as, which means to kill him if you have only true damage, you would still need 10 seconds to kill them.

Now let's add the armor pen values. Let's just to make it easier say taric somehow already has all BC stacks on him, so he gets 35% armor reduction form that. 400*0.65=260 armor left.

Now we add in the lord dominiks bonus armor pen. Taric has 83 base armor. Reduced by BC this is 54 base armor. If we now do 260-54 we have 206 armor affected by lord dominiks. So after this the Taric got 113,3+54=167 armor left.

Now we take the 50 lethality at level 18 which means the tank has 117 armor left. This equals about 50% damage reduction. This means that the time it takes for jinx to kill Taric with your build is 20 seconds.

Now I did forget to add in the bonus ad from LDR, this would give you 15% increased ad so your kill time would be about 17 seconds. And this is without needing to stack the Black Cleaver!!

Now the mage part, first of all, most mages arent tank killers, but they burst squishies. They dont have dps and pretty much only burst with the exeption of some mages, Like Cassiopeia which are meant to shred through tanks like kog and vayne as adc's do. But let's tak a decently scaling mage, xerath, is trying to kill you, and he uses everything at your 4k hp taric with 250 mr.

First we are gonna add in the 35% mr pen from void, This gives taric 162 mr. Second we're gonna add the flat pen, 162-30=132mr which means he has 57% damage reduction Now we gonna add xerath's kit, let's say he has a rabadons and a morello's besides these items. this means he has 482AP. He can use his R once and the rest of his kit as soon as it gets of cd and he instacast his q so it doesnt have a channel

His Q deals, mr added, around 350 damage and has a 3,5 second cd with 30% cdr, adidng up to 100 dps His W deals, mr added, in the center, 401 damage and has a 7 second cd with 30% cdr, adding up to 57 dps His E deals, mr added, around 262 damage and has a 7,7 second cd with 30 cdr, adding up to 34 dps His R deals, mr added, around 1331 damage over 5 shots. This ability has a static cd of 0,8 seconds, which means it takes 4 seconds so first we're gonna remove the r damage, 4000-1331= 2669 hp Now we have a total of 191 dps with q-r-e. If we devide 2669 by 191, we get a grand total 14 seconds. Last we're gonna add the ult cast time, 4+14=18 seconds Now abyssal scepter gives 10% increased magic damage, so it now takes 16,2 seconds to kill the taric.

Now I know I missed some factors like runes and masteries from both taric and the one attacking him, (courage, fervor, TL, magic/armor pen mastery) and I the heals and shields taric gets from himself, I also did not count Jinx R and xerath AA's and also the liandry's passive current hp damage. But overall I think it is a pretty clear proof that you're talking out of your ass.

TL;DR Both JInx and Xerath take over 16 seconds to kill taric with the items OP said, tanks are not up and flat penetration isnt op vs tanks. OP should stop the bias and look what is actually happening in the games he's playing and the math behind it before talking with such a huge hyperbole.

Hammermancer1 votes

You specifically called on champions with less synergy, do it again with varus, and factor in the gap close time, try it with graves, try it with a carry that actually builds pen instead of just saying "Jinx can't do it well"

Next you didn't factor in the runes and masteries presumably taken 24 lethality and 5% armor pen which is a pretty big deal third 400 armor and 4k hp isn't gonna take that long when someone is hitting 600 damage per auto at one per second, that willl not be 20 seconds considering spells.

yes if a jinx stood there and autoattacked and her attack speed was nothing then yes... with nothing but autoattacks you're right that 82 lethality, 52% pen, and black cleaver wont be very quick to the job, but you and I both know that your argument falls flat because all carries have at least two buttons to press

Finally you didn't factor in that botrk... which adds attack speed, or the fact that ADC runes add attack speed, or the mastery... or jinx's passive on her gun

basically I'm saying adjust your math and use a better representative champion

Juul991 votes

I know it isnt precise, but the literally 2-shot to kill a malph is complete bs, and we are in a tank meta right now with CotC making everyone unkillable and marksman in the worst spot they have ever been.

I decided to take jinx because she is known as a tank killer while most of the former armpen build (which is only decent at mf atm) adc's like lucian are about bursting squishies. If you wanna make a point about tanks being too squishy (which I dont agree with, but anyway) you should take a full build jin or trist with 80% crit a bloodthirster and lord dominiks. Atm you're ocmplaing about a build which isnt used on any champion.

Also, the 600 damage per second is bs, if you have 50% damage reduction as a tank every AA would need to do 1200 damage, while you have 400 ad and no crit. For comparison, mf passive would deal 800 base and 400 reduced by armor, and her normal atacks do only the half of that.

As for the abilities, yes adc's do abilities, but the adc's that are best at shredding tanks are the ones who do less abilities and the ones who kill squishies are the ones with armorpen builds that take years to kill a hypertank like poppy or maokai

Further, with the armor pen part I actually had like 54% reduction but I rounded it to 50% reduction to make it easier to calculate stuff with. As a normal adc you dont have lethality in your runes and masteries and you have 7% extra armor pen. But while this could make a difference, I also didnt count thins like Taric Q-Taric W, CotC, and some mr/armor masteries from the resolve tree, so overall I think the balance between these two would go more positively for the Taric's tankyness.

About botrk, the build you showed had 5 items, I assumed you would take boots to round it out, and though I indeed forgot about jinx bonus attack speed, we both now it would probably take more than 10 seconds to focus taric, which isnt even the tankiest of tanks, to kill him with your build.

As for the synergy with items part of the argument, I purposely didn't take champs like vayne, kog'maw and cassio, since these would shred tanks with pretty much any build because of their kit (I guess cassio would need to get a void, but my point still stands). Because you mentioned it like it was a general thing I took pretty general champs in terms of synergy between items, though jinx might be a bit too far towards the worst of syergies, tristana or caitlyn wouldnt have done much better. As for Xerath, he's a pretty average mage who doesnt fall off and is pretty good in terms of dps for a mage.

I dont think you mentioning varus as the tankshredding adc is right either. Though varus has his w for some tank shredding, if h's going armor pen with your build it would take 3 seconds to stack his w for not that much damage of proccing it because he has no ap. And AP varus isnt a very meta build and is only decent because of it's damage to tanks and has pretty much nothing going for it but bursting a tank for not eve 50% of it's hp everytime his r is up.

And if I would take something like miss fortune to kill the taric, it would indeed go faster, but I would be surprised if you'd die within 10 seconds if you dont stand in the ult for the whole duration.

also Tanks are supposed to get outscaled by marksman Their is a reason why there is no tank item above 3k gold, tanks are supposed to reign midgame together with mages (1 item above 3200 gold) while marksman itemization is very expensive (at least 2 items above 3,5 k gold) so it take slonger to get htem but once they have everything ot's wrth more stats. If marsman didnt outscale tanks this game would be boring as fuck with poppy walking through entire teams without actually taking damage.

Last, I do agree with you that there is too much damage in this game, I just dont think penetration is the problem. Lethality is really weak and is getting buffed next patch, magic pen isnt much around and liandry's is not much bought either. I think the main problem wiht the game at the moment is bruiser damage, tank base damage/tank survivability (pick one) and keystones granting way too much damage. I think they should all be like Stormraiders only giving you a utility effect which helps witht playing the champ while not granting them more damage.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h6agXs73,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2017-01-17T18:36:38.828+0000)

You specifically called on champions with less synergy, do it again with varus, and factor in the gap close time, try it with graves, try it with a carry that actually builds pen instead of just saying "Jinx can't do it well"

Next you didn't factor in the runes and masteries presumably taken 24 lethality and 5% armor pen which is a pretty big deal third 400 armor and 4k hp isn't gonna take that long when someone is hitting 600 damage per auto at one per second, that willl not be 20 seconds considering spells.

yes if a jinx stood there and autoattacked and her attack speed was nothing then yes... with nothing but autoattacks you're right that 82 lethality, 52% pen, and black cleaver wont be very quick to the job, but you and I both know that your argument falls flat because all carries have at least two buttons to press

Finally you didn't factor in that botrk... which adds attack speed, or the fact that ADC runes add attack speed, or the mastery... or jinx's passive on her gun

basically I'm saying adjust your math and use a better representative champion

No ADC is ever going to stack all those pen items barring some cheese build that's easily countered by diving the immobile carry (MF).

HateDaddy3 votes

Who the hell is building all of those pen builds at once? An ADC wouldn't benefit from that, no crit and no DPS. Congrats, you've negated the tanks armor - now have fun chewing through 3.7k HP with about 1 300 damage AA every second. AD assassins? They suck right now. And if they built that way specifically to kill a tank, the fact that a tank is absorbing that damage and not its carry is a win in itself.

Complaining about this is stupid because that's not a practical or realistic build on anyone. And I don't disagree with the sentiment of damage being too high or games ending too quickly but tanks are actually really strong right now, especially if they can use CoC.

forresto1 votes

I can see it on certain bruisers maybe, like xin or darius, but overall I have to agree.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

I can see it on certain bruisers maybe, like xin or darius, but overall I have to agree.

Ok, and if a melee champion built this exclusively and you aren't focusing them and blowing them up in a second, the issue isn't itemization.

deadlychuck1 votes

Jax

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Jax

sorry, I said champions, not glorified meme minions

6Sfool2 votes

I agree, but the varus cheese thing is bugging me. You cheese tanks by going ap and proccing 35% of their max health with one spell, not by an arpen build. I have 2 builds for him. One that'sitem 3812 item 3009 item 3004 item 3036 item 3142 item 3078 . This one I take against squishy comps that don't have any divers. It reaches almost 1100 damage on q factoring everything, but it does very little to tanks His crit build is a little better against tanks because of the dps, but his w is still kind of wasted that way. My ap build item 3146 item 3115 item 3124 item 3001 item 3157 item 3020 will shred everyone in the game in under 4 seconds. 2.5 attack speed after a kill, autos that deal between 400 and 600, and 45% cdr to proc stacks over and over again.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Sadly spot on

Sire Hippington2 votes

i miss the days there 'bruiserbuilts' consisted off 2-3 off items and actually were bruiser(tanky-dps) builts. Now bruiser builts with ~3 off items are prettymuch the assasins builts, as the tankiness is needed to not randomly die to aoe on them and the damage is still high enough. Trinity+tank is now what once was a 2-3 off item bruiser built, and if you want to be a decent frontline that survives focused fier for more than 2-3 sec, you need to go fulltank, and still don't feel tha tanky.

The only exeption is getting ahead in the midgame, then you can get near immortal with CoC even on more agressive builts, but if you are behind or reach lategame, tankiness hardly exists anymore.

Kulle Aid1 votes

I feel like you're leaving Yorick out of this. while he isn't played often he is high damage for being so tanky.

Ralanr2 votes

He's supposed to since he's a juggernaut.

Spoofghoul1 votes

well you perfectly described why i don't build armor on tanks anymore

it's a wasted stat

i will build item 3047 item 3068 12% aa reduction nice, some additional armor to tank a turret or objective sure, anything beyond that is just wasted armor anyway

carries will ignore anywhere between 52% and 98% of your armor these days so why even build any beyond the little bit to tank objectives and turrets

also anyone not a carry you don't need more armor either reducing nami's 100 damage basic attack by 65% or 70% doesn't make much difference your better off building more health, mr or health regen at that point

in fact you are totally right when you say you should just build more damage at that point

and there we have it, carries crying over tanks dealing damage

yea well they are building damage what do you expect to happen when defensive items aren't functioning anymore

Frius1 votes

your cleaver +lw math is so wrong my head hurts.

Lovelle1 votes

I would say the lethality changes were a pretty good step toward making tanks feel tankier. I'm not really seeing tanks or bruisers struggle right now. In fact, this is probably the best state tanks/bruisers have been in since season 2. Most assassins can't really scratch tanks or bruisers until they reach at least 3-4 items. Late game carries will kill tanks no matter what.

ChaosThief1 votes

I'd like to feel like I can build 6 tank items and actually survive the enemy team's onslaught for a good 10 seconds or so. I invested everything into survival, yet I still get ripped to pieces? Really?

Meanwhile, damage characters are either you obliterate someone or get obliterated in the blink of an eye. It's fun for one side, not the other.

Dengeden1 votes

There's a reason that build on Varus is cheesy. If this Taric ults himself and stuns him, that Varus is dead.

6 items, which is when tank items are at their weakest, rarely happens, which makes your scenario even more improbable.

It's true that building damage is rarely a bad idea currently. Especially on a trash tank like Garen who has 1-2 abilities that actually qualify as tanky. But 1 damage item among 5 tank items is what that looks like.

A mage that built those 3 pen items will have pretty much 0 burst. All for the sake of attempting to kill a tank who will CC him and walk away.

deadlychuck1 votes

I've said before, that i don't understand why riot put the armor pen on items which were AD. It seems like you'd want them on attack speed items, to pair with champions who are expected to kill the tanks.

The darius, wu, jayce, exc, aren't the ones which need armor pen, it's the marksmen and auto attacking fighters. Yet item 3071 is probably one of the most purchases items for bruisers, fighters, and even many assassins.

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can we get a confirmation window before banning a teammate's intended pick?
Gameplay52 comments
148
votes
Kaisa hasn't gotten a sking in 38 days why are you ignoring her?
Memes & Games42 comments
145
votes
You forgot to make lux's ult do true damage
Gameplay55 comments
116
votes
I'm just gonna say it: Bad players don't deserve bad attitude
Gameplay102 comments
88
votes
So Akali, Irelia, and garen walk into a bar
Memes & Games19 comments
88
votes
New item: Woodsman's boots. A new option for smite with champs who don't want those jg items
Gameplay64 comments
85
votes