You win a 5 v 4. You are the 5 and they had a no show. Do you deserve LP?

Occams Raiser·May 28, 2015·6 votes·1,838 views

I just wanted to see how many sportsmen there were out there. It seems when mercy or prevention is mentioned for this situation there is always someone that complains about not getting his points. Another worry is if you were allowed to have "no contest" game, the five would somehow be pissed that they were denied an easy win. I want to hear from the community.

EDIT: After some good voting I see a reoccurring theme. Under the current system people want the points cause there was a time when they lost the points. That is not quite where I was going with this, but it was expected.

DID you deserve to lose the points in the first place for an EARLY DC? Does the other team deserve the points IDEALLY?

96 Comments

CindikleMay 28, 20155 votes

Time was spent. Something should be earned.

Unless you can come up with a fool-proof way to solve it without someone being able to abuse it in the slightest. Otherwise we'd just trade problem with another. Adjusting the LP lost/gained does not solve this and can be abused.

Occams RaiserMay 29, 20151 votes

Didn't I address this post? Feels like I have seen it before? Did you copy this?

CindikleMay 29, 20151 votes

Yes you already replied to this post. Click the "Show More" button in the corner.

Although for some reason I don't see what you typed. It just shows your replay, then a couple other replies following you.

DreadlocksMay 28, 20153 votes

Why punish the team of 5? Not saying the team of 4 should be, but definitely not the team of 5. It's not like they drop hacked them.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20153 votes

Not being able to get a free win is not a punishment. Not getting paid for NOT doing your chores is not a punishment.

DreadlocksMay 28, 20151 votes

Pretty sure not getting LP in a ranked game when you didn't do anything wrong is a punishment. Basically the game becomes pointless to play. Give the 4 side Loss Prevented or something, but don't take away from the team who actually showed up to play.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20151 votes

Only if you feel entitled to them just for showing up. Points are awarded for wins. But I am sure if there was a 5 man DC you would still want the points even though you know it was server failure. It seems a common trend so you are in numerous company. I can't say good company cause it's not.

DreadlocksMay 28, 20151 votes

If its server failure, they give 50% LP.

Mirage SeraphMay 28, 20153 votes

I'd be willing to take Reduced LP if there were mechanisms in place to prevent: "Lel I'm gonna feed for 10 minutes then afk! Then EVERYBODY gets screwed over!"

No LP though? I mean, I didn't just spend 5 minutes finding a match then 20 minutes (or more) playing it to just get "GJ you won a 5v4, have a nice day." I guess I'm not a perfect sportsman, but man, 0 LP just kind of screws over both parties.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20151 votes

I understand if its a late game AFK. not if its an early dc.

FieBall25May 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h2BrRzF5,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2015-05-28T15:42:30.026+0000)

I understand if its a late game AFK. not if its an early dc.

Because there is no actual way to determine if u afk "late game" unless you're afk from the start.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20151 votes

Correct. I just roll my eyes at late game afks. shrugged shoulders.

Clown ApocalypseMay 28, 20152 votes

I'd be willing to take reduced LP if they surrendered or had some mechanism where after 5 minutes of an afk it disbanded the game. I always make it a point to report the afk even though there's leaverbuster. I just want fair matches, I don't want freebies. I don't think the LP reduction should be massive though, it should be proportionate to how much of the game has been played I think. I'd also be down for them getting reduced loss. I know if the afk was on my team I would want to not take as big a hit to my LP.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20155 votes

Person after my own heart. I love the feeling of a hard fought fair game. It makes me remember why I play this shit.

NuSix3May 28, 20152 votes

To answer this question you have to answer this one:

You lose a 5v4 team advantage. Do you deserve to lose more LP?

JelloineMay 28, 20152 votes

I feel that if a team has an AFK, the teammates should take minimal or no LP loss, however the winners should still gain LP. More thoughts here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/LmUnYVq7-why-do-we-lose-lp-after-going-through-20-minutes-of-hell

AlphaKappaPikaMay 28, 20152 votes

Okay so what I think should happen Is that If someone disconnects or leaves for 10 minutes, the friendly team can do a "no contest" vote and if they vote yes then the 4 team get a loss prevented (which means that in a promo it wont count and also if they are at 0lp they wont get demoted). First offense offense they get a 5 game win normal draft ranked restriction, 10 minute low priority queue for 10 games, and twice the lp they would lose if they had just lost the game normally, if they are at 0lp they get demoted. Second offense they get demoted a division unless they are at a "5" division, so they dont get demoted a league. then they get a 15 game ranked normal draft restriction, and a 20 minute low priority queue for 10 games. Third offense, their case gets reviewed by a rioter and they decide the punishment, if it was just very unlucky circumstance (or a dc) then they are given a 2 week suspension on ranked and if the afk'ing was malicious, they get a 2 week suspension totally from the game, and when they come back they cant play ranked until they win 30 normal draft games. this resets maybe every 2 weeks and if they continue to afk then they face permanent bans. Also people who won the game get the full lp they would have gotten if they won a 5v5, no reason to punish them for some asshole afking on the enemy team. This way it prevents duos from getting 1 guy to afk to save the promos, and also if someone is at 0lp, unless of course they want some nasty restrictions. Needs to be harsher penalties for the afkers, i guaruntee you i could afk in ranked twice right now and nohing would happen? how much lp would i lose for my team not including me? probably around 80 for each game i afk.. so total i would lose the teams i afk'd on 160 lp and nothing would happen to me. good to know.

Angry MonsterMay 28, 20152 votes

Can not prove what is intentional and what is an act of god. To many ways that the system could be abused. Why is it the 5 man fault that they showed up to play? Reduced LP should only be from when riot messes up (server problems).

In most video game compositions players are not punished for the enemy not showing up. The enemy has to play down a man or forfeit the match. Hell even real sports are this way. You only have LP points in ranked where it is supposed to be competitive.

LP gains have nothing to do with being good sportman. Being a good sport man is just getting the game over with. Being a bad sport is farming for S rank or taunting how bad the enemy is cause they are down.

You are giving sportsmanship another meaning that it does naturally have.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20152 votes

I almost gave this a TRUE response. Then I saw the author.

Angry MonsterMay 28, 20152 votes

Very childish.

You inability to deal with reality shows the person you are.

SageaceMay 28, 20152 votes

You still fought the battle. You collect the spoils of war. What's done is done, even though you may not have "completely" earned it.

I assume Riot will implement a system where the team with the most active players can vote whether the team with fewer active players deserve "Mercy" or not so that if they did receive "Mercy" the LP loss for the whole team is reduced. The problem is whether to punish the "Leaver" because it's not always due to them being a complete jerk. It could be caused by internet problems due to storms and crazy kids or pets. However, they still receive their loss because some cases a 4v5 can still win the game. I assume Riot is still on to this topic, so patience is in order.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20152 votes

Your statement just refuted such a system. You want what wasn't earned. To put mercy in the hands is of the opposition is preposterous.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20152 votes

I am amazezed how many opportunists there are. I don't know if you are jaded by the current system (the world showed no compassion to me. DAMN THEM), Or do a lot of people think free wins on a game of skill is good. Remember if you aren't beating players on a particular level fair and square, you aren't really that level. Your div would be cosmetic and handicapped.

TransgressorMay 28, 20152 votes

If the enemy team still didn't surrender despite being a plaer short and still played and tryharded, I see no reason who not to be fully rewarded with a well deserved win. People need to learn when to back down as much as they need to learn not to give up.

Lich My AsheMay 28, 20152 votes

I paid a lot of good money to have that person go afk so you're damn right I do!

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20151 votes

Now that is funny.

SirsirMay 28, 20151 votes

If its an enforced ruling then no-contest. As it is now tho, all I can say for them is sh*t happens...

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20152 votes

I feel similar.

AMYS GRAVEMay 28, 20151 votes

5v4 win: leaver loses full LP and victors split that amount of LP among them. small gain for the large advantage.

4v5 win: 5 defeated and leaver lose full LP and the 4 victors get 5/4 * full LP for their hard fought win.

ChaoticPineconeMay 28, 20151 votes

im not a big fan of punishing the non-offending party for a victory, even if its a 5v4. They didnt ask for it, and still had to play out the game (some 5v4s can be harder than 5v5s). And not a fan for getting extra for doing something you should have already done (playing your best in a ranked game).

A clean slate i can understand - pretend like it didnt happen for 9 players, only lose LP for the leaver. that seems fair to me: punish the offending party without benefiting or punishing the other 9 players. but again, this is abusable.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20152 votes

It isn't a punishment. I ask you to beat up 5 people and you beat up four. Why do you expect to be paid the same?

ChaoticPineconeMay 28, 20152 votes

i asked for a 5v5 match. circumstances outside of my control gave me a 5v4. I did not ask, nor do i want to play a 5v4. the change would give the winner of a 5v4 around 1-5 LP for a win.

if you force me to play the game, then give me practically nothing in return for a win, this change would punish me for doing absolutely nothing wrong. its just wasting my time.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20152 votes

In an Ideal situation you are not forced to play a 4 on 5.

ChaoticPineconeMay 28, 20151 votes

of course. thats why i would rather have the game disbanded, if there was a way to implement that without abuse.

but i still dont agree that i should be stuck playing a 20+ minute game for 1-5 LP. youre limiting my rewards based soley on the actions of an enemy player. I cant help if they disconnect. (similarly but besides the point, I cant help if matchmaking places me in lane with someone with inferior skills.) LP rewards should not reflect something i had no part in.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20151 votes

I would also like the game disbanded. So while there is no alternative you know you are entitled to the points though not deserving per say. The lp loss reflects something they had no part in technically.

AFK PushMay 28, 20151 votes

I believe it also depends during what point of the game was the person dced or quit etc. For example, if they never connected or left the game only a few minutes in then sure maybe get less lp. However, I have had many game where people dc and their team was already losing hard enough that their presence wouldn't have mattered much (Such as losing hard when it is late mid-late game). In the latter case I think full Lp would be sufficient.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20152 votes

For a no show, why does the other team deserve an LP?

NyaboronMay 28, 20151 votes

You fully deserve full LP. I lose full LP when someone on my team dc's or rq's, so it would be unfair if I didn't get any when it was the other way around, that's how you normalize it.

Riot should reduce by a flat % the amount of LP you lose if you lose 4v5, and all LP NOT taken from each individual player is added onto the LP lost of the player who left. If blue team loses and everyone loses 20LP from a loss, make it 8LP lost each and (12*4) 48 LP not lost by the 4 remaining players is stacked onto the 20LP from the leaver. A 68LP deficit will make someone rethink queuing up on shitty connection without testing in a normal.

I understand that some people DC occasionally but should still be allowed to play, you can climb back up if it happens once in a while. Otherwise, if it happens more than once in a blue moon, DON'T QUEUE FOR RANKED.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20151 votes

This is a tit for tat argument. But if it hadn't happen to you would you still want it to happen to someone else? you realize the unfair nature of the situation. It only thing that makes it alright is (like riot says) it all evens out. This should not be the case.

HOLY SHIT ON THAT PUNISHMENT. $* LP for A DC. I thought I was a hard ass.

NyaboronMay 28, 20152 votes

DC's don't happen all that often, and the odds of it happening on the other team are greater than it happening on your team (as long as it's never you). When it does happen to me (with this punishment in effect), I can be sure that whatever I'm losing, it's not as much as the asshole that made me lose it.

DrCyanideMay 28, 20151 votes

There's a roughly comparable example that happened in the LCS if I recall correctly. One of the premade teams had extreme Visa issues, and as such only one member of the regular team was able to attend an event. The team still played, but using four backup players.

You can definitely argue that the team was at a disadvantage. You can even feel sympathy for their situation. That said, I don't think it would be right to detract from the rewards of the team that beat them.

Such is matchmaking as we have it. It's not really our fault as players on the team with 5 if this happens, we were prepared for the game and we played our best. We should not be sold sort for that.

I'd lean towards reduced LP loss for the team with 4.

If you want a more drastic solution, I offer an alternative solution to AFK's/DC's, mid game player swaps. If a player doesn't join the game/come back in a certain time frame, then matchmaking will reach out to a sperate pool of players and ask them if they want to swap into the game as that champion. They don't know if their team is winning or losing, and they must own the champion. They can select their own runes/masteries/summoners, which replace the other players. The champion has all spent skill points returned, and all items are given a full refund. Champions or items that gain stacks over time maintain those stacks (the item must be bought back first). This gives a team a second chance at turning around the 5v4. Again, this is a drastic idea that will probably not be implemented, but before anyone brings it up, "it could be abused" can be applied to anything from a pencil to the champions selected in game.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20152 votes

This isn't the same situation to me.

RaiseYourBortlesMay 28, 20151 votes

You're making it seem like winning a 4v5 is impossible.

I've done it and had it happen to me many times. It's possible, your team still has to work together and beat 4 people.

We get the same amount of LP in a 4v5 and a 5v5 because we spent time towards the game and earned the win.

So yes, I do feel like I deserved that LP.

Occams RaiserMay 28, 20153 votes

I bet you have less than 5% winrate on games where you had 4 people the entire game.

RaiseYourBortlesMay 29, 20151 votes

Yes i probably do. But that still proves it's possible. If people didn't give up so easily i bet it would happen a lot more often.

Occams RaiserMay 29, 20151 votes

You have anecdotal evidence and a feeling you would win more. Statistically this ain't happening. you have a 50% chance when it is fair. 1 man down is way more of a lop side than an extra 10%. If you won 10% of all 4 v 5 it still wouldn't be worth it. NO CONTEST would be so much better for everyone.

RaiseYourBortlesMay 29, 20151 votes

I'm not saying it's fair or better. I hate 4v5's no matter what side im on. It brings the salt out in everyone. All i was trying to say was that winning them is possible and does happen. So how Riot does things right now is the best possible thing they can do.

Occams RaiserMay 29, 20151 votes

thats cool.

RaiseYourBortlesMay 29, 20151 votes

Hahah alright.