Maybe it's just me but 
's current passive is bad. If the other guy isn't low, it's worthless. If the other guy is low enough to kill, there's still that issue of hitting him, if he's still in range. Then there's the issue that her passive only works when she's dead and it isn't a revive passive.
EfficientDynamo8 votesAgreed. It adds nearly nothing to her gameplay, only activated if you mess up badly enough to die, and even then isn't a reliable source of damage (with the delays and slow missile speed). I agree that her kit might have enough power as-is, but there are passives that could be added that don't necessarily shift that balance.
For example: -Zyra's plants need room to grow. Placing active plants (seeds activated) within X units of each other cause them to spawn with X less health/damage. -Zyra's plants are kings of the jungle. Placing an active plant in a bush causes the plant to spawn with X increased health/damage.
Both of these are thematically consistent with Zyra, and push her to make meaningful choices in how she plays without giving her loads of extra power.
KaisadiIIa8 votes-Zyra's plants need room to grow. Placing active plants (seeds activated) within X units of each other cause them to spawn with X less health/damage.
That passive is awkward...
EfficientDynamo2 votesI agree, but I'm just spitballing to demonstrate that you can add in gameplay elements that the champ can interact with (basically raising the skill ceiling).
Leblancs Boob5 votesI would be happy if it was possible to hit without her target forgetting Zyra even has a passive
Junkο7 votesMost of the time it won't hit even if that happens
manbearswine5 votesI'm so bored with these posts,yeah okay zyra's passive isn't great,but can we stop trying to weasel out buffs for champions(even if I agree zyra deserves them)? You are trying to get a stronger passive instead of the current one,here's a crazy idea: if you want to buff zyra then buff zyra. Genius,I know,her passive is meh,plenty of passives are that way,but it's not so horrible riot now needs to sit and think of something to rework it into it,if you want to buff zyra,just buff zyra.(same goes for ashe)
Abyssphere7 votesI'm so bored with these posts,yeah okay zyra's passive isn't great,but can we stop trying to weasel out buffs for champions(even if I agree zyra deserves them)? You are trying to get a stronger passive instead of the current one,here's a crazy idea: if you want to buff zyra then buff zyra. Genius,I know,her passive is meh,plenty of passives are that way,but it's not so horrible riot now needs to sit and think of something to rework it into it,if you want to buff zyra,just buff zyra.(same goes for ashe)
It's pretty obvious that if a new Zyra passive ends up being really good she'll lose power elsewhere.
manbearswine1 votesIt's pretty obvious that if a new Zyra passive ends up being really good she'll lose power elsewhere.
It'll have to be pretty damn good. But point is: is that a trade you really want to make?(let me guess,"depends") anyway this is obviously another ashe thread,where people try to weasel out buffs by asking to give a stronger passive,why not just make her base kit stronger then? would that be better? would that be worse? this thread isn't about her passive,it's about trying to weasel out buffs(same as all the threads about ashe's passive).
Abyssphere7 votesIt'll have to be pretty damn good. But point is: is that a trade you really want to make?(let me guess,"depends") anyway this is obviously another ashe thread,where people try to weasel out buffs by asking to give a stronger passive,why not just make her base kit stronger then? would that be better? would that be worse? this thread isn't about her passive,it's about trying to weasel out buffs(same as all the threads about ashe's passive).
I disagree with your assertion, mostly because of the line "why not just make her base kit stronger then?". The answer is obvious - people think her base kit is perfectly strong. Whether it's Ashe or Zyra or anyone similar, the problem people have is with the passive. If people want buffs then the most logical place to buff is the worst part of the kit and with these champions, those are the parts considered worst.
Your use of the verb "weasel" is really negative and strange. It's not as if people are trying to "trick" Riot into buffing their champions. They're asking for buffs/changes and pointing to the part that needs changing. There's nothing below the service going on there.
manbearswine2 votesI disagree with your assertion, mostly because of the line "why not just make her base kit stronger then?". The answer is obvious - people think her base kit is perfectly strong.
I don't think that they do,probably because she isn't,zyra got nerfed ~a year ago and has seen 0 competitive play since then,and is barely played in solo q as well,the only thing "good" about her is her winrate(which ironically today is equal to that of ashe,at 51.77%),but considering the opinion on lee even with his winrate,that doesn't say much.(also if my opinion is worth anything i'd say she's trash right now)
If people want buffs then the most logical place to buff is the worst part of the kit and with these champions, those are the parts considered worst.
on the contrary,in fact the most logical thing to buff is what is already strong,that way you get unique champions with unique strengths and clear weakness,instead of some moronic mess(thresh you fucking piece of garbage),if you want to buff zyra(or any champion for that matter) buff what's already fun about him,buff what people already enjoy using.
Your use of the verb "weasel" is really negative and strange. It's not as if people are trying to "trick" Riot into buffing their champions. They're asking for buffs/changes and pointing to the part that needs changing. There's nothing below the service going on there.
except that they are,this post(and the ashe passive ones) are basically "asking for buffs without asking for buffs",and they are basically trying to trick someone(and of course it's not gonna work) into buffing a champion.
Abyssphere3 voteson the contrary,in fact the most logical thing to buff is what is already strong,that way you get unique champions with unique strengths and clear weakness,instead of some moronic mess(thresh you fucking piece of garbage),if you want to buff zyra(or any champion for that matter) buff what's already fun about him,buff what people already enjoy using.
I won't argue with the rest of your post because it's pretty reasonable but this part I disagree with. A kit having unique strengths and clear weaknesses is nothing to do with the strength of what they do, it's about what they don't do. A kit where every ability is satisfying should be encouraged, not warned against. After all, there's nothing fun about feeling one of your moves is useless.
Zyra could have her weaknesses removed if a new passive covered up for say, her lack of mobility. But making her passive good does not mean she loses her weaknesses, and having a mediocre passive is not a "clear weakness" at all.
manbearswine3 votesI won't argue with the rest of your post because it's pretty reasonable but this part I disagree with. A kit having unique strengths and clear weaknesses is nothing to do with the strength of what they do, it's about what they don't do. A kit where every ability is satisfying should be encouraged, not warned against. After all, there's nothing fun about feeling one of your moves is useless.
It's not so simple,champions are theoretically(yes the new ones don't particularly care for it) limited by power budget,might as well "spend" as much as you can on the abilities which make a champion unique,sure you can think of some passive which satisfies that,but the fact you have to work on her passive limits your freedom,and is a restriction for no good reason.
Zyra could have her weaknesses removed if a new passive covered up for say, her lack of mobility. But making her passive good does not mean she loses her weaknesses, and having a mediocre passive is not a "clear weakness" at all.
true enough,still,there's no reason to tunnel on her passive,you can rework it,you can also not rework it,it's just a pointless restriction,if you want to buff zyra just buff zyra,it can be through her passive or anything else for that matter.
VDc0zCqe0w1 votesIt's pretty obvious that if a new Zyra passive ends up being really good she'll lose power elsewhere.
no she won't need to
if a champ is useless you buff him/her
because Zyra right now is useless, ask any pro player
in soloq she's good
GaleWinUnleashed2 votesZyra's and Kog's passives both don't fit their gameplay at all. They could certainly use new ones, and there's nothing wrong with tweaking other numbers after that if they become unbalanced due to the change.
manbearswine1 votesZyra's and Kog's passives both don't fit their gameplay at all. They could certainly use new ones, and there's nothing wrong with tweaking other numbers after that if they become unbalanced due to the change.
They actually do,both zyra and kog are squishy and immobile and are more likely to die than...well...most champions,so it's a fallback mechanic for that case(not the strongest or most relevant one(in contrast to karthus),but still)
GaleWinUnleashed3 votesKog'Maw is focused on retaining as much range as possible from his opponents, yet when he dies... he has to run into melee range to do damage. That one makes no sense. Zyra, maybe, but even if it seems vaguely reasonable, it's still quite boring.
EfficientDynamo1 votesA strong passive isn't necessarily required. I would rather have one that adds something to your gameplay decisions (look up the Diamond Design series of posts on the Boards for an idea of what I mean).
And I would have to agree that Ashe needs a passive rework more than Zyra, but that doesn't mean that Zyra doesn't deserve one independently of any other character.
manbearswine2 votesA strong passive isn't necessarily required. I would rather have one that adds something to your gameplay decisions (look up the Diamond Design series of posts on the Boards for an idea of what I mean).
And I would have to agree that Ashe needs a passive rework more than Zyra, but that doesn't mean that Zyra doesn't deserve one independently of any other character.
Why? Why does zyra necessarily deserve a new passive,hell,why does even ashe deserves a new passive?
There are so many ways to improve every single champion in the game,why tunnel so hard on zyra's passive? so It isn't very strong,so it doesn't fit her too well,that just means the rest of her kit can be stronger,is that good? is that bad? I get it that it can be improved,everything can be improved,but zyra's passive is just on par with most passives(and no,no bringing in new/certaintlyT champions in this,we all know they are dumb),there's no reason whatsoever to tunnel on it,if you want to buff zyra,then buff zyra.
EfficientDynamo2 votesI think you kinda ignored the core of what I posted. I commented on how passives should impact your gameplay decisions. It could very well be weaker than her current one, but could also be much more interactive (like Xerath's, for instance, which forces a long range mage to get close enough to AA).
Also, my last sentence says fairly clearly that I am not "tunnelling in" on Zyra. Certain passives could be improved to accentuate play/counterplay. Ashe and Zyra are 2 of many champions that could fall into this category.
manbearswine1 votesI think you kinda ignored the core of what I posted. I commented on how passives should impact your gameplay decisions. It could very well be weaker than her current one, but could also be much more interactive (like Xerath's, for instance, which forces a long range mage to get close enough to AA).
Oh man,the long ranged mage has to come and aa a creep every 12 second,hell he can even charge his retarded q first,zone you,aa a creep,then continue on being retarded(just so we are clear after being balanced around zed xerath is incredibly stupid right now),xerath's passive is actually for the most part fake decision making,yes if you get close to him or he's aware that there's no threat he will aa you,otherwise he will aa creeps,most mana based mages need to aa creeps to conserve mana anyway,his passive is interactive only on paper.
Zyra's passive actually has some minimal decision making involved with it,such as trying to lock down people in a row before dying,or zoning people after death in the case the fight was more than 1v1(which is quite likely considering she's a support right now),i'd say her passive is about as interactive as that of xerath.
Also, my last sentence says fairly clearly that I am not "tunnelling in" on Zyra. Certain passives could be improved to accentuate play/counterplay. Ashe and Zyra are 2 of many champions that could fall into this category.
you are right about the first part(can be used to accentuate play/counterplay),completely wrong about the second,ashe and zyra already have very clear strengths and weaknesses,it's just that at the end of the day their weaknesses completely overwhelm their strengths.
Awoof1 votesIf I may ask, what's so horrible for you about the idea to change Zyra's passive?
You say her passive being nonsense is ok because other parts of her kit can just be buffed... Like, I don't even understand, why should we buff something that doesn't need to be buffed because we want her to have a better fitting passive? I don't get your logic.
manbearswine1 votesIf I may ask, what's so horrible for you about the idea to change Zyra's passive?
because every champion's kit can be improved but you are tunneling on one specific part of a specific champion,why not rework varus's passive? why not rework kogmaws? thresh? sejuani? veigar? xerath? nunu? lissandra? what is so special about passives as well,wtf is gankplank anyway? what the hell is taric? evelyn sure could use some work after the changes to pink wards. so many passives are just a bunch of stats which could be translated into base stats without changing much,but for some reason we are focusing on zyra,why?
You say her passive being nonsense is ok because other parts of her kit can just be buffed... Like, I don't even understand, why should we buff something that doesn't need to be buffed because we want her to have a better fitting passive? I don't get your logic.
Because this post really isn't about changing her passive,it's about trying to weasel out zyra buffs,the ashe posts are the same.
Oh and same as ashe,zyra most definetly is in need of buffs,considering her abysmal popularity and competitive presence.
Awoof1 votesbecause every champion's kit can be improved but you are tunnel on one specific part of a specific champion,why not rework varus's passive? why not rework kogmaws? thresh? sejuani? veigar? xerath? nunu? lissandra? so many passives are just a bunch of stats which could be translated into base stats without changing much,but for some reason we are focusing on zyra,why?
Because this thread is about Zyra and her passive being boring/useless. Like wtf are you going on about. Want to talk about the others? Make a thread about them.
Because this post really isn't about changing her passive,it's about trying to weasel out zyra buffs,the ashe posts are the same.
This is just an accusation of yours, and anyways you say:
Oh and same as ashe,zyra most definetly is in need of buffs,considering her abysmal popularity and competitive presence.
So...
I think you don't grasp the concept that a more fitting passive would make the champion more fun to play, buff or not. Because maybe this not solely around a conspiracy to simply buff Zyra. And before you start again - BECAUSE THIS THREAD IS ABOUT ZYRA.
manbearswine1 votesBecause this thread is about Zyra and her passive being boring/useless. Like wtf are you going on about. Want to talk about the others? Make a thread about them.
And yet I know that what I would be asking for is silly because the amount of work which it would require is much greater than the benefits of it.
This is just an accusation of yours, and anyways you say:
Too bad it's spot on.
So...
I think you don't grasp the concept that a more fitting passive would make the champion more fun to play, buff or not. Because maybe this not solely around a conspiracy to simply buff Zyra.
And I tell you tunneling on her passive is an unnecessary constraint.
And before you start again - BECAUSE THIS THREAD IS ABOUT ZYRA.
This thread is about trying to weasel out buffs FOR ZYRA,it's more specific than just being "about zyra".
NUT IN ME PLEASE3 votesRevenge passives are usually used when a champ's kit needs nothing else. Such as koggles and karthus. They, including Zyra are all very squishy champs with 0 mobility. It fits, but it doesn't mean it's good.
An idea for another passive would be she gets to throw out en empowered ability plant, but to make things simple and not complicated, here's an example.
P (Passive) A (Ability enhanced by passive)
PQ: (Orginal Passive, but deals alot less damage, but the True damage scales with a small AP ratio, giving her a more late game presence.) Refreshes plant timer. PW: Zyra grows a poison seed that DoT's her foes with small amounts of true damage and slows them if stepped on and releases a toxic cloud for a few seconds that deals DoT the same amount. Looks like a bigger seed, but purple. The DoT deals small amounts of true damage, but scales quickly if you don't leave. Refreshes plant timer. PE: Zyra unleashes the force of nature, instantly snaring all around her and dealing true damage (although alot less than her passive) and marks those hit with "Disturbed" and plants deal bonus damage to them (let's say +15%). *Refreshes plants timer. * PR: N/A
With these changes, Zyra has an extra level of choices she can use on the battlefield and makes it more satisfying to die. The damages are small, but they each have the potential to deal more damage (not early on, however), especially in the late game.
Examples would be in a team fight, you would want to either PE, or PW, for the CC for PE or the damage with PW. In a 1v1 Situation, you would PQ, refreshing the plants timer around her and adding a bit of extra damage to her foe. Or, you could PE for they wont get away if its a mobile or tanky champ and hope your plants whittle them away. There would be many possibilities.
Mandang01 votesI love the concepts, but I think some of them (especially the PE) would get Zyra nerfed (probably at support).
NUT IN ME PLEASE1 votesPE is supposed to be a small radius. I'm refraining from putting actual numbers due to the backlash.
The Soulforged3 votesKarthus's passive is pretty thematic and is actually useful. Koggles and Zyra's however add nothing to gameplay.
1999 01 173 votesher passive is garbage for sure but she's still good so eh
Dark Nephthys3 votesI think a fun suggestion for a Zyra passive buff would be "If her passive kills a target, she revives with half her max health." Although that could be sort of strong but a fun little buff to her for people who are good with it. Gives her more reward for those revenge kills.
Krys Star2 votesI'd prefer her passive having an ap scaling if anything. Especially since it'd encourage players to play her more as a mage than a support but... I don't know. My two cents. =\ 0.1 ap scaling!
Linna Excel1 votesThat would be better than nothing.
Mandang01 votesDid you have anything in mind for a different passive? I don't really feel strongly either way, I just wouldn't want a passive change to get her nerfed.
NUT IN ME PLEASE1 votesMade one check it out!
Linna Excel2 votesI'm leaning towards a tougher and longer lived version of her ranged plant appears where she dies. Maybe 20 health and 15 seconds of life. That'd at least be close to her current passive and fits her kit's theme while giving some counterplay and getting rid of the unresponsiveness of her skillshot.
The Bearded Bard1 votesIt's not really that bad at all. They just need to make it the way it was on release, wider and I'm pretty sure it didn't have such a lengthy wait time to cast it. Should have to wait a second, not 2.5
Linna Excel2 votesIt's that lag on it's that's the worst and at least for me makes it difficult to aim as it feels so unresponsive especially for what feels like so little damage.
Ariel the Cruel1 votesThis has been brought up a lot of times since her release.
Riot considers her kit overloaded. Riot also considers "revenge passives" to be free power - since they're generally less useful the further ahead you are.
Mandang03 votesIf Riot considers Zyra's kit overloaded, I'd love to hear their thoughts on Thresh/Yasuo/Kalista.
I know they're all CertainlyT champs, but of the lot, Zyra doesn't strike me as overloaded. Hell, she only has 1 CertainlyT(TM) passive, and sacrifices one of her skills for plants. That and the fact that she's actually immobile makes her kit look a lot more balanced than the other champs' I listed.
Ariel the Cruel3 votesThat's not a small kit. That said though, her overloaded kit is the reasoning they gave when she was released. Thresh, Yasuo, and Kalista weren't released yet. If anything, this best represents power creep (Kit overload creep?).
Sona is considered the poster child for kit overload - and gives up everything else to have it. She was the original. Zyre gives up her passive. Thresh gives up base stats. And has an infinite scaling passive. Yasuo give up ranged AA's. And has high mobility, ranged CC, and wind wall. Kali's ult and nuke are gated behind her soul-bound. who will be with her most of the time anyways. Lee sin's kit doesn't qualify as overloaded. Because, Lee Sin.
Honestly, I think Riot needs to re-evaluate how they spread a champion's power budget. Since the cost of having more options seems to be gradually decreasing.
Mandang01 votes[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0hmouEG,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2015-02-22T18:04:38.703+0000)
- good poke
- safe ranged harass
- pseudo minions
- pseudo wards
- root
- slow
- ranged AA's
- huge AoE knock-up
- Built-in CDR All on relatively low cool down.
That's not a small kit. That said though, her overloaded kit is the reasoning they gave when she was released. Thresh, Yasuo, and Kalista weren't released yet. If anything, this best represents power creep (Kit overload creep?).
Sona is considered the poster child for kit overload - and gives up everything else to have it. She was the original. Zyre gives up her passive. Thresh gives up base stats. And has an infinite scaling passive. Yasuo give up ranged AA's. And has high mobility, ranged CC, and wind wall. Kali's ult and nuke are gated behind her soul-bound. who will be with her most of the time anyways. Lee sin's kit doesn't qualify as overloaded. Because, Lee Sin.
Honestly, I think Riot needs to re-evaluate how they spread a champion's power budget. Since the cost of having more options seems to be gradually decreasing.
You can give a similar laundry list for most kits, ESPECIALLY most support kits. I'm not gonna cherry pick one at the moment, but if you'd like to pick one, I'll do my best to inflate their kit similarly to what you've done here for Zyra (you listed "good poke", "safe ranged harass", AND "ranged AA's" all separately ...come on now)
I also contest your "relatively low cooldown" bit - whose cooldowns should be taken as the average? For a good portion of the game, seed timer is 16+ seconds, and E's base cooldown is 12 seconds.
I'm surprised you think Sona gives up everything to have her kit overload, as Reds have often said that her ult was an out-of-place, very strong skill for what the rest of her kit delivers (aura overload). Her passive is also very versatile, so idk which "everything" she's giving up...
Lastly, I don't think it'll be particularly enlightening to argue each of these champions' trade-offs for their kits, but I think you've overlooked Zyra's extreme immobility and dependence on landing skillshots (even worse as dashes aren't interrupted by E, and will move snared enemies away from her E plants).
VDc0zCqe0w1 votes[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0hmouEG,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2015-02-22T18:04:38.703+0000)
- good poke
- safe ranged harass
- pseudo minions
- pseudo wards
- root
- slow
- ranged AA's
- huge AoE knock-up
- Built-in CDR All on relatively low cool down.
That's not a small kit. That said though, her overloaded kit is the reasoning they gave when she was released. Thresh, Yasuo, and Kalista weren't released yet. If anything, this best represents power creep (Kit overload creep?).
you can make a list like that for any other support let's take Janna
see? it's easy, if you take Urgot you could do the same thing, also you said "pseudo minions", "pseudo wards", "good poke", "safe ranged harras", wich are the same thing (i don't get why "pseudo minions" should be any stronger than any other normal spell but w/e)
Zyra's kit is NOT overloaded because she trades base stats and MS for that, and it's not even broken as a kit
BLU Medic1 votesI agree. It's like Kog'Maw's passive but worse. If there was a special benefit for trying to kill someone with the projectile (instant respawn? Faster respawn? Movement speed boost on revival?) then maybe, but even then, Zyra might as well not have a passive.
Civil Dawn1 votesZyras passive promotes unhealthy gameplay.
It's literally "Feed, or you don't get a passive"... It's essentially punishing players who don't die often. Punishing good positioning.
Needs to be completely redid, like Draven's passive.
Kitten of Evil1 votesEven something like "Zyra moves more quickly towards her plants" would be kind of neat.
Big Bang Bob1 votesWhile we're at it, could we change 
's passive? Why would a long range adc want a passive that blows up everyone close to him?
AnOstrichWithPMS1 votesriots response : new zyra passive, for 10 seconds after zyra dies she gains a 300% movespeed boost
edit: they should totally make a tank that gets a moving , non attacking, teamfight meatshield passive for 10 seconds after death for lols
Keitron1 votesWhat about Sion's passive or Kogmaw's passive stop complaining about zyra when your not about KogMaw.
Sirsir1 votesAll death passives need to be redone I think. Zyra, Kogmaw, Sion...
Well ok not Karthus, his is fine.
Romans 81 votesHow about
Passive: Fertile Soil
When Zyra grows a plant anywhere where a previous champion has died, that plant is more robust (harder to destroy).
Or maybe
Wherever Zyra dies, there is a large circle where her allies will get increased stats for a brief moment (Ability Power/Attack Speed/Attack Damage? scales with her AP?)