what people are forgetting, and auto blaming sunfire/IBG

Very Hard Engage·Apr 12, 2016·8 votes·1,522 views

its that it heavily loses to early magic damage.

people are no longer picking nearly as often as they used to in the top lane. the threat of "i can't pick an armor scaling champion blindly, i'll get counterpicked" just isn't there

and for whatever reason true damage champs aren't touched

so it raises the alarming question "why did we pick these champions"

you didn't think....

what dynamic queue as a whole offered was diversity and the freedom to get what you want, people aren't favoring what they should so its leading to poor team comps.

people have already decided what they're going to play going into the pick/ban phase.

sunfire/IBG is just whats being abused as a means to give a huge advantage over enemy teams who lack good team comp. and by the users who are actively thinking "what should i do to win"

32 Comments

ErockandrollApr 12, 20165 votes

While I agree with you. A lot of this is charged by the assumption, (perhaps rightfully so) That AD is just that strong in the current meta.

Perhaps this will change with the mage update. (I actually believe the itemization will help AP, contrary to other peoples claims.)

Jeddy017Apr 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps this will change with the mage update. (I actually believe the itemization will help AP, contrary to other peoples claims.)

We all remember what happen after the past 2 roster update.League of Mages,here we come.

TurquoiseYoshiApr 12, 20165 votes

item 3211 negates most magic damage early. It's definitely enough to stall until you have item 3068 and item 3025 and are then able to finish item 3065 . You can check pro matches as well, this is what they do.

Irelia BotApr 13, 20162 votes

Well it is a max of item 3155 and item 3211 begin 2 really effective options for contending with magic damage. Now if lost 50 health and 5 MR with a 200 gold cost reduction then it might be within reason as not being to hard of a counter.

item 3155 Needs to lose 5 MR and have the shield reduced by 50. That will make it a less effective item to sit on.

But I will agree that items are to easy to sit on currently and not have to build completely to get really good results from them.

TurquoiseYoshiApr 13, 20161 votes

Hexdrinker is a lot rarer in top lane due to the meta champions who like IBG/Sunfire being hypertanks, but yeah, Hexdrinker is a bit too strong just to keep as a mini-counter right now.

D3m37r1Apr 12, 20165 votes

The reasons people don't pick those champs Ryze - Gutted(will be reworked soon) Lulu -Gutted (for the sake of lcs) Rumble Chogath -Very good champions. Idk why they aren't popular Irelia Olaf -too many nerfs(not sure if i would consider gutted) Lissandra -Basically a glorified support.

AnomanderApr 13, 20161 votes

Irelia is fine however she is always a skill match and no one like to do skill match ups.

Irelia BotApr 13, 20162 votes

And that is in part why I never stopped Being an Irelia main even through season 3.

DrCyanideApr 13, 20162 votes

Rumble is sitting at a 42.88% win rate Top for Plat+, so I'd hesitate to say he's in a good spot right now.

AlwaysByMySideApr 12, 20163 votes

{quoted}

its that it heavily loses to early magic damage.

people are no longer picking nearly as often as they used to in the top lane. the threat of "i can't pick an armor scaling champion blindly, i'll get counterpicked" just isn't there

and for whatever reason true damage champs aren't touched

so it raises the alarming question "why did we pick these champions"

you didn't think....

what dynamic queue as a whole offered was diversity and the freedom to get what you want, people aren't favoring what they should so its leading to poor team comps.

people have already decided what they're going to play going into the pick/ban phase.

sunfire/IBG is just whats being abused as a means to give a huge advantage over enemy teams who lack good team comp. and by the users who are actively thinking "what should i do to win"

You really believe that high elo players don't know how to switch their picks to something better for the comp or for their lane?

Very Hard EngageApr 12, 20161 votes

no they do, thats why they often leave their intent blank and they pick meta champions. but its also the reason why sunfire/IBG is sparsely built on anyone other than poppy.

AlwaysByMySideApr 12, 20164 votes

{quoted}

no they do, thats why they often leave their intent blank and they pick meta champions. but its also the reason why sunfire/IBG is sparsely built on anyone other than poppy.

That's a bad joke.

Ekko rushes it. Sion rushes it. Rammus rushes it. Malphite rushes it. Fucking top lane Fizz rushes it. Trundle rushes Titanic Hydra but then gets IBG. Nautilus rushes it. A Maokai building properly rushes it.

Every champion I mentioned except Sion and top lane Fizz is a commonly played top laner in plat and up, and as Dyrus can attest to if you're playing a top laner who can afford to do so sunfire + IBG is the best build.

"Sparsely built" lol, what a crock of shit.

Very Hard EngageApr 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gw0kjQWg,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-04-12T21:59:33.914+0000)

That's a bad joke.

Ekko rushes it. Sion rushes it. Rammus rushes it. Malphite rushes it. Fucking top lane Fizz rushes it. Trundle rushes Titanic Hydra but then gets IBG. Nautilus rushes it. A Maokai building properly rushes it.

Every champion I mentioned except Sion and top lane Fizz is a commonly played top laner in plat and up, and as Dyrus can attest to if you're playing a top laner who can afford to do so sunfire + IBG is the best build.

"Sparsely built" lol, what a crock of shit.

match history, please and thank you.

AlwaysByMySideApr 12, 20164 votes

{quoted}

match history, please and thank you.

Whose match history, mine? My own match history has nothing to do with anything I just said.

http://champion.gg/champion/Ekko/Top

As we can see, Ekko is being built exactly like I said he is, as is every other champion I mentioned.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Top&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

All the champions I mentioned to be played often either have the best play rate in the game top lane (lol Ekko) or are played often.

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Maokai

Notice how common sunfire + iceborn is being built on Mao, and how Rod of Ages is basically never built.

I will actually admit to being wrong about Rammus. Apparently he just gets sunfire, no IBG.

Very Hard EngageApr 12, 20161 votes

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=dyrus

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=rohammers

dont use a champion as evidence. when ekko is set for nerfs. if the combo was potent, it would be played on everyone all the time. and its not. its specifically built by certain champions in key games which is leading to the gross statistics.

its like this, i reserve rammus for enemy full AD teams, and that leads to rammus having a high win rate. people aren't building sunfire/IBG every single game of their lives because it simply isn't the best, people know it, the pros know it, they reserve it for when it will work and its a good idea to do so.

darius, hecarim, mundo, illaoi, renekton, singed, kench, volibear would like a word with you.

its not the items, its strictly champion choices.

AlwaysByMySideApr 12, 20163 votes

{quoted}

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=dyrus

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=rohammers

dont use a champion as evidence. when ekko is set for nerfs. if the combo was potent, it would be played on everyone all the time. and its not. its specifically built by certain champions in key games which is leading to the gross statistics.

its like this, i reserve rammus for enemy full AD teams, and that leads to rammus having a high win rate. people aren't building sunfire/IBG every single game of their lives because it simply isn't the best, people know it, the pros know it, they reserve it for when it will work and its a good idea to do so.

darius, hecarim, mundo, illaoi, renekton, singed, kench, volibear would like a word with you.

its not the items, its strictly champion choices.

Bad argument. Even if the combo is potent it won't be built on everyone all the time, assuming you actually meant what you said. Unless Riot loses its mind sunfire and iceborn will never be so strong that Cassiopiea or Lissandra will build it (however, it is so strong that Fizz will build it).

The pros know it so much that Dyus, one of the players linked, explicitly said in a video addressing what he calls the "tank meta" that sunfire and IBG is the optimal top lane build for most of the meta champions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvOjne4gEEg

About 3:30.

Darius is okay right now, Hecarim is mediocre, Mundo is okay (and only doesn't build IBG because he has no mana, he almost always gets sunfire), Illaoi is turboshit, Renekton isn't very good (and doesn't have mana, so he doesn't get IBG), Singed can't fit it into his build due to the way his kit works, Tahm Kench top is bad and underplayed, and Voli is pretty good. So you have mostly champions who are bad to mediocre, Singed, and two okay to good champions who could conceivably fit it into their builds but usually don't.

Okay? So there are champions that don't synergize as well with sunfire + IBG. That's cool, I already knew it.

None of those champions are as good as the champions who can abuse it best.

You seem to be saying that we shouldn't blame the items. We should blame those individual champions. Which is all well and good... but if there are many champions who are too strong with two items, why nerf all those champions, and not the items that make them too strong?

Very Hard EngageApr 12, 20161 votes

because the items aren't strong. they have clear cut counterplay, counterbuild, and work arounds, people just aren't taking them.

"for most of the meta champions" namely 3 of them, maokai, poppy, malphite,

who are all hyper tanks with the intent of just being in your face and unmovable, not because they're dealing tons of damages and killing carries, or moreso than other tanks.

AlwaysByMySideApr 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

because the items aren't strong. they have clear cut counterplay, counterbuild, and work arounds, people just aren't taking them.

"for most of the meta champions" namely 3 of them, maokai, poppy, malphite,

who are all hyper tanks with the intent of just being in your face and unmovable, not because they're dealing tons of damages and killing carries, or moreso than other tanks.

Don't forget Rammus, Trundle (to an extent), Nautilus, etc.

Most meta top laners use these items because its the strongest item combination on champions who can run it. He even uses fucking Jayce as an example of a champion who you can build those items on because of how strong the items are.

Also, they are doing tons of damage and killing carries, but that's beside the point. Tanks right now are able to burst down carries while also being virtually unkillable until late game. Probably due to IBG.

Very Hard EngageApr 13, 20161 votes

he lost 4 out or 5 games trying it on jayce IBG/SV.... clearly it doesn't work for everybody. (scroll through most of his games, its just IBG hes building, look for the games with 2/3 of those items) ((he has none where hes built all 3))

heres how this works. you have a balanced team, lets say sunfire/IBG is a good idea against your enemy top laner, it completely shuts them down, they cant kill you, maybe 1/4th your health with everything they've got.

AP mid laner/nidalee/elise jungle comes on up to mess up your day.

lets say you've got the third item SV. congrats, you've got 2.5~3.2k health, give or take, pending what champion and level. well that means everyone else also has 3 items.

now i wonder what items would be a good choice against you in particular...

item 3151 item 3071 item 3135 item 3036 item 3001 item 3153 would seem to work well against you....

but wait... the enemy team built none of those, instead they built item 3285 item 3031 item 3078 item 3508 item 3165 item 3027 item 3158

so im seeing it as pretty justified scenario as to why the tank is running rampant.

when in reality i see a hyper tank on the enemy team, im going item 3165 item 3116 item 3151 item 3020 on my mid laner and i have absolutely 0 problems dealing with you.

and i frequently roam top knowing hes full armor build (when were still at the first item) and he isn't going to do anything against me. grats, now hes feeding.

basically it takes a good team to take down any tank regardless of what they're building. this "gross overpowered build" is running rampant in solo queue punishing bad teams, poor compositions, and poor coordination. go figure.

67chromeApr 12, 20162 votes

its that it heavily loses to early magic damage.

Any tank building those items can simply rush item 3065 and then proceed to be invulnerable to magic damage for the next ~20 minutes of the game.

Tanks also naturually counter mages just due to how cost-effective HP is against them, allowing tanks and tanky DPS fighters to completly ignore MR and stack HP against mages ever since season 1.

Those mages don't counter armor-stacking tanks so much as picking them is counterpicking yourself in a lot of lane matchups.

Even worse: tanks generally have among the weakest lanning phases in the game, and tanks can often win games for their team after loosing lane just from offering a very strong team-composition late game for team fighting. They provide a solid front-line to support a dedicated back-line.

Picking a lot of AP scaling top lane champions forces you to win lane very hard or loose the game, against champions that are natural counterpicks, against champions that often result in a better team composition.

I'd also say anti-magic itemization and anti-burst itemization options in: item 3139 item 3155 item 3156 item 3053 item 3102 item 3065 Being substantially stronger in this season than past seasons is why AP champions in general aren't being played. It's so easy to counterbuild their damage, AP burst brings very little to a team comp in applying kill pressure.

AP itemization is actually so weak right now compared to it's counterbuilds, you're better off doubling damage as a magic-damage champion by doubling your defense and just lasting long enough to go through a few rotations over actually building damage to double damage.

ErdamonApr 12, 20161 votes

This wouldn't be so problematic if not the fact that the champs you've mentioned are either hard to play, team dependant, need a lot of gold/xp to scale properly, or all of them at the same time. Something that masses don't like and is significantly harder to play as itself, and against IBG + Sunfire.

NekusenApr 12, 20161 votes

its usually a non-issue as adcs and ad assassins are dominating every lane.

Very Hard EngageApr 12, 20161 votes

"why" would adcs and assassins be dominating?

also, if its such a potent combo, why isn't it seen across more champions/lanes than just occasionally (on one person, maybe every other game) ((go on scroll through your match history))

NekusenApr 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

"why" would adcs and assassins be dominating?

because they outclass the rest of classes or outright counter them, like the example of actual top-lane champions.

Only Play DariusApr 12, 20161 votes

Because Ryze/Lulu/Liss are cancerous in toplane. The champs they bully the hardest are the ones like Nasus/Darius/Garen/Singed who are completely unviable in any other lane.

AbyssphereApr 12, 20161 votes

The core tank item trinity right now is IBG, Sunfire and Visage. If you were against a magic damage top laner you would just... build Visage first. It single-handedly invalidates AP champion right now and Spectre's Cowl is extremely good at negating magic damage poke in the laning phase. All you do picking Liss or Ryze top is make the IBG and Immolate waveclear come online a bit later than usual but it's easy to go Cowl > Cinder > Visage/Sunfire > Sunfire/Visage and then start on IBG.

LilxPaprikaApr 12, 20161 votes

and black cleaver being a 3500 gold making % armor pen a bit out of reach. Unless you're riven you aren't rusing black cleaver first item either on a lot of champions. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/6jTzfWEE-the-reason-tanks-are-running-amock-early-game-is-because-black-cleaver-is-a-more-late-game-item

Great OzymandiusApr 12, 20161 votes

garen and darius. Darius is a meta pick.

Irelia BotApr 13, 20162 votes

Lord Dominik's Regards is actually too got at countering armor currently. This is in part why Frozen heart is not a more popular item.

The Bíg TicketApr 12, 20161 votes

If Bruisers werent so shit tanks wouldnt be a problem.

Shuyin178Apr 13, 20161 votes

I like how people are saying "Everyone only wants to use META champions" Meanwhile I'm over here steamrolling with my girl Illaoi who barely anyone else knows how to use properly because people don't get how to manipulate tentacle placement locations as her.

YCitizenSnipsYApr 13, 20161 votes

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.overallPosition&order=ascend&roleSort=Top

Take a look for your self and see how well each of those AP champions you named are doing in the top lane. How do you know people aren't picking them and just not winning the match ups becasue of the champions being weak right now?