just make black cleaver stacks half value for ranged users.

Very Hard Engage·Sep 13, 2016·87 votes·2,917 views

was intended for front liners to get into the fight and offer something for the team to help out because normally they weren't meant to be the source of damage.

but when an adc is applying that armor shred often to multiple targets its an issue.

come on, lets find some reasons why an adc would want the item over any other traditional choice....

because the passive + 50 ad makes it worth as a damage item to them. in addition they can apply stacks safely and to multiple targets.

92 Comments

GULAG 4 USep 13, 201627 votes

Doesn't sound bad to me honestly. I think this is a good change.

EDIT: Thought about this again. This is fucking amazing, shits on arpen builds hard while not fucking over melees who need it. Great change sir, take the cookie :) +1

Edit: Urgot would need buffs doe. Gnar might need to be rebalanced around that.

SpoofghoulSep 13, 20162 votes

nah gnar doesnt need buffs

and urgot needs a rework + star guardian skin

GULAG 4 USep 13, 20163 votes

Doesn't really justify letting an already meh pick even shitter for no reason.

SeenanSep 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't really justify letting an already meh pick even shitter for no reason.

Lol, until Gnar's interaction with mallet is nerfed he should not get compensation for shit. TBC is his usual 2nd item rush cause of mallet.

GULAG 4 USep 13, 20161 votes

I guess yeah. I meant urgot and not gnar doe.

WoonStruckSep 14, 20161 votes

Urgot's getting reworked.

"Making an already meh pick even shitter for no reason" isn't really an excuse for not nerfing a problematic item specifically for its problematic users because of that.

Especially when hardly anyone uses Urgot. There's literally no way you can legitimately use Urgot as an excuse to justify not changing something.

Jinzo TorranceSep 13, 201612 votes

Poor Mister Jayce

Very Hard EngageSep 13, 20163 votes

it doesn't affect his poke. it only touches his 3 charge strike in ranged form, thats all, which he usually uses for towers and hes more melee/poke oriented when dealing with champs, im not seeing too much of an effect.

SnowplosionSep 14, 20161 votes

If it is halved for ranged, how would it not affect his? Do abilities work differently with Black Cleaver?

kile147Sep 14, 20161 votes

This change makes it so that ranged champs take twice as long to apply full black cleaver armor reduction, but if you were never getting to that point anyways because all of your damage is in one poke move then it's not a big difference.

SnowplosionSep 14, 20161 votes

Ok, I think I must have read the proposed change wrong. I still think it would affect his damage, but not as much as I previously believed.

GULAG 4 USep 13, 20161 votes

He will still fuck you hard. And this is worth, fuck the arpen builds.

Jinzo TorranceSep 13, 20161 votes

He builds like an AD caster... He can't build crits like Marksman, he doesn't have the AA range and no steroid except for 3 autos

The Great DivideSep 14, 20161 votes

item 3031 item 3508 > his maxed W will hit like a truck (110% Autos, in rapid succession, with a high chance of them critting for 250% damage, Egads!)

Is it more viable than tear build? I don't know. But it still isn't something to completely pass off

NightmareAmazoXSep 14, 20161 votes

He builds Murama, Youmuu's, Trinity, IE, Essence, That's not really caster.

Jinzo TorranceSep 14, 20161 votes

Hmmm, about that. Trinity is only built against squishy top laner (Rumble, Lulu..), good luck finding them in top, this is usually the build item 3071 item 3142 item 3812 item 3009 item 3156 ( item 3036 / item 3033 )

Tear now takes a lot to stack, you usually build it if you are the only poke your team has (just get blue instead of wasting an item slot). If you go mid lane you probably should build it tho.

RavenMagusSep 14, 20161 votes

{quoted} just get blue instead of wasting an item slot

Only works if you're a full AD team. If you take that blue lategame you're robbing your mage of a rather potent AP buff.

tooomineSep 14, 20161 votes

and then resigns adc's to uselessness in team fights.

Eh.... fuck you too, dude. sincerely, every ADC palyer ever.

Very Hard EngageSep 14, 20167 votes

full armor + 1 damage item > full ad build

sincerely every tank with a counterbuild ever, building all around you for the sole purpose of putting you into the ground. but oh wait... cleaver is such a grossly OP item that it destroys my whole counterbuild.

"so whats the counterbuild to someone who builds cleaver and last whisper?" - LOL there is none, you switch the way you play and avoid him like the plague until you're ready to hard engage and prevent him from getting a single auto off, because its that powerful and that necessary just to deal with you.

adc's have traditionally built full ad/crit/as, with 1 last whisper as a last item, the moment you start building more than last whisper for pen is the moment you know something is wrong.

Battlecast SonaSep 14, 20163 votes

I don't know that it's this extreme, but it's definitely a big part of the problem this season. If Black Cleaver functioned differently in tandem with LW it could go a long way to fix the problem... Like if they gave each other diminishing returns on the items in some way (Black Cleaver also focusing bonus armor, for example).

AstôlfoSep 14, 20161 votes

Or, learn how to play ADCs without relying on items not even meant for them?

tooomineSep 14, 20161 votes

to quote from the patch 5.8 notes:

We're going to be blunt - when The Black Cleaver's good, it's good at many things: blowing up squishies via flat armor penetration and busting down tanks with its stacking armor shred. Because of this, we've had to tune the item accordingly, making it pretty mediocre at both of its aforementioned jobs.

No longer!

Well, sort of. One of our goals with a revisit to The Black Cleaver was to basically choose one of those paths and go sprinting down it. There are already a bevy of options when it comes to blowing up squishies, so tank busting became the name of the game for the new Black Cleaver. The design here should make sense for anyone who wants sustained, tank busting combat patterns, so we won't dwell too much on that. Go try it out! [emphasis added]

Checkmate.

you should note, any AD should have ths item as an item choice. stop spreading this misinformed bullshit all over the boards.

AstôlfoSep 14, 20161 votes

Cute.

Troll for TrumpSep 14, 20161 votes

This is probably just me, but I feel MF with the Youmuus+Cleaver is wayyy better than the Crit build. And her crit build is just meh. She's supposed to be powerful early, but Crit items tend to be stronger lategame. So it ends up being a weird powercurve.

GULAG 4 USep 14, 20161 votes

It is. That's why mfs don't run crit builds anymore.

Troll for TrumpSep 14, 20161 votes

Every MF I see except me is rushing Essence Reaver ;-;

GULAG 4 USep 14, 20161 votes

Sounds like they're trash fortunes then.

Spaceman5pffSep 14, 20161 votes

Gnar is a wierd case. He himself isn't overpowered, but with item 3022 item 3071 he is absolutely busted. what we need : Lowered slow duration on ranged char. Maybe also lowered slow amount. If lowered slow amount is too much but we still need something, maybe we can make a stacking slow over multiple attacks up to the current value. : your change looks good :) may need to nerf the phage proc too but we will see. I just think it is bogus that a Lucian item 3071 can kite out Tryndamere summoner 6 item 3706 item 3146 item 3009 and Mocking Shout

4789Sep 15, 20161 votes

Well 1) Lucians kit is built around kiting and skirmishing lol (although phage passive on him is annoying as hell) 2) the slow on mallet is already lowered for ranged, but again like Lucian, mini gnar is meant to chase and kite

Spaceman5pffSep 15, 20161 votes

I am aware the range slow is less. The range slow needs to be lowered, or removed.

4789Sep 15, 20161 votes

Lowered maybe, not removed though

Spaceman5pffSep 15, 20161 votes

Lowered needs to happen. Removed would be a last resort.

4789Sep 14, 20161 votes

i think this is a great idea, however, it might fuck up some ppl ie jayce and otherwise, gj on the idea :D

GULAG 4 USep 14, 20161 votes

Jayve just got a massive round of buff crack up the ass lol

4789Sep 15, 20161 votes

But you get my point, ppl like jayce, gnar etc

EndlessSorcererSep 13, 20168 votes

You leave Urgot alone.

Critmaster GarenSep 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

You leave Urgot alone.

im not convinced cleaver is such a great item on urgot.

he has 20% armor shred already built into his e. seems to me like with all the flat armor pen this season, thats the way to go for him.

Nami in BushSep 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You leave Urgot alone.

Urgot

Critmaster GarenSep 14, 20166 votes

{quoted}

You leave Urgot alone.

actually there is no reason not to increase the armor shred on urgots e to 30% if cleaver was made melee only, or nerfed for ranged. seems like a simple solution.

colesySep 13, 20162 votes

pretty sure the only ranged champs using the item are lucian, gnar and mf

Very Hard EngageSep 13, 20164 votes

you mean regularly as part of an optimal build.

its still an offending item to any adc and should be considered only against a truly outrageously tank team. 20% cdr 50ad and armor shred is gross, survivability too? sure why not

GayFluffyUnicornSep 14, 20161 votes

Dont forget the movespeed to make adcs even more slippery to get at as melee. Especially against lucian who gets W movespeed buff and infinite dashs on E. Same with mf who can already slow+high ms buff from W.

5000000000000000Sep 14, 20162 votes

What about using % base AD increase in addition to this, like Sterak's? Good pickup on bruisers, not so much on ADCs.

tooomineSep 14, 20161 votes

only problem is that it is literally functioning exactly how it was designed, as a generalist option for anyone who uses AD scaling. ADC's should be building this item. and anyone else. go back to read the patch notes.

TequilaZombieSep 14, 20161 votes

I think you might have missed the point.

By using base AD (this means the AD a champion gets with level, not with items, masteries or anything else), you can actually balance the item. ADCs have lower base AD than bruisers, therefore, using a % of the base AD of a champion makes it stronger on melee champions like Darius, Garen and the champions who are supposed to build it, and weaker on ADCs.

tooomineSep 14, 20161 votes

quote from patch 5.8, the redesigned black cleaver:

We're going to be blunt - when The Black Cleaver's good, it's good at many things: blowing up squishies via flat armor penetration and busting down tanks with its stacking armor shred. Because of this, we've had to tune the item accordingly, making it pretty mediocre at both of its aforementioned jobs.

No longer!

Well, sort of. One of our goals with a revisit to The Black Cleaver was to basically choose one of those paths and go sprinting down it. There are already a bevy of options when it comes to blowing up squishies, so tank busting became the name of the game for the new Black Cleaver. The design here should make sense for anyone who wants sustained, tank busting combat patterns, so we won't dwell too much on that. Go try it out! [emphasis added]

Adc's should be building this item. it is literally intended for anyone who wants to use it.

I didn't miss your point, I dismissed your point because its irrelevant. the item was, literally, never intended to be melee only. stop spreading this misinformed bullshit all over the boards.

TequilaZombieSep 14, 20161 votes

However, the meta changed pretty drastically since path 5.8.

ADCs with Armor Pen builds are still blowing up squishies in no time, while shredding through tanks without a problem.

While Black Cleaver is not exactly the problem, the Armor Pen build on ranged champions is a big one, and TBC is one of it's core items.

item 3071 is doing exactly what it was before it's last redesign.

AstôlfoSep 14, 20161 votes

Except ADCs were never meant to use it.

tooomineSep 14, 20161 votes

to quote the patch 5.8 patchnotes:

We're going to be blunt - when The Black Cleaver's good, it's good at many things: blowing up squishies via flat armor penetration and busting down tanks with its stacking armor shred. Because of this, we've had to tune the item accordingly, making it pretty mediocre at both of its aforementioned jobs.

No longer!

Well, sort of. One of our goals with a revisit to The Black Cleaver was to basically choose one of those paths and go sprinting down it. There are already a bevy of options when it comes to blowing up squishies, so tank busting became the name of the game for the new Black Cleaver. The design here should make sense for anyone who wants sustained, tank busting combat patterns, so we won't dwell too much on that. Go try it out! [emphasis added]

not that anyone should be able to use the item.

checkmate.

stop spreading misinformed bullshit around the boards.

AstôlfoSep 14, 20161 votes

Cute.