im not disparaging adcs and pen/lethality, but its just not for them.
if you did give half lethality for ranged you could make it more meaningful for the assassins who actually need it like talon or zed. heck even raise the cap but lower the starting scaling back to 40% and scale up with level. maybe not my numbers, but im saying it could be fixed quite easily without worrying about abusers.
Ahristocats25 voteswhat's the problem of lethality on adc except mf that needs a nerf?
Tychusfindlay9192 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xwgotmvf,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-02-01T15:07:52.429+0000)
what's the problem of lethality on adc except mf that needs a nerf?
Draven can also use lethality quite well. Lucian can use lethality if he cares to do so. Varus can use it to ignore tanks when hes trying to poke.
Ahristocats20 votesi'm not asking a list of adc that can use them, i'm asking who's a problem with lethality beside miss fortune
MissingKayo4 votesGives hyper carries too strong of an early game without trading lategame power.
Ahristocats13 votesNone except mf are hyper carries, draven is a hyper carry but i never saw him building lethality and if you build lethality over crit YOU ARE trading late game power
MissingKayo2 votesLethality Draven… is the main build… And all ADCs are hypercarries.
Yes you trade power in comparison to 100% Crit Chance. No, it doesn't make any meaningful difference with how strong Lethality + LDW/MR is in lategame anyways.
Ahristocats8 voteshttps://i.gyazo.com/a1fd2da8ecc738010694394f87a20699.png
champion.gg says the opposite
Yes you trade power in comparison to 100% Crit Chance. No, it doesn't make any meaningful difference with how strong Lethality + LDW/MR is in lategame anyways.
this is so bullshit, a lethality build adc cannot and can never kill a tank
MissingKayo1 votesLDW/MR's % bonus armorpen applies before Lethality.
Ahristocats15 votesIT DOESN'T MATTER WTF do you think that flat armor pene will compensate the 250% damage steroid of infinity edge +70% crit from items+ ATTACK SPEED?
hello wake up, or play some lethality adc to see except mf who can oneshot a team they all trade of tank killing for high range poke
King LeBong2 votesThe KR draven build only involves ghostblade as the lethality item. It's not a lethality build. It's not even the most common build as it's only really used by Draven mains and high elo players who understand the concept behind it.
If you think there's no difference between a lethality build and a scaling crit build, you shouldn't be trying to talk about balancing it.
The difference at 3-6 items is absolutely massive.
Ahristocats4 votesghostblade sucks heavily in 1v1 since the lose of attack speed, i can hardly imagine a draven building ghostblade as his damage will suck so hard because what is good with lethalit unlike crit is that it's applied to spells, draven can only do damage with his R that has 120 sec cd and you can dodge the return of the R
i don't care about KR draven, i only care about what i see on the game that crit is better than lethality if you don't have spells doing damage
that and that lethality sucks in late game
King LeBong1 votesHave you never played with or against the build?
It's a lot more than his R that does a lot of damage, maybe you should play the build and then report back to me.
His 1 item spike is insane, and you will shit on anyone 1v1, even most tanks.
Also lethality is better lategame than it ever has been, it scales unlike armor pen when we had it.
Ahristocats2 votesif you don't use spells to do damage, then 
will in all situations give you more damage than flat armor pen
can we stop the bullshit now?
King LeBong2 votesAbsolutely incorrect, go test it for yourself.
Ghostblade will average more DPS on a one item spike at all times compared to ER, for just about every champion.
Crit builds don't outshine lethality until 3-4 items, when the multiplier becomes much larger.
Fefnil4 votesI like this, let's do the math: No runes, no masteries. 1 item only, so roughly level 10. Let's take Draven, with a base AD of 78,5, then let's take as targets a random adc with 51,1 armor and a random tanky champion with 55,1 armor. The tanky champion though has an armor item, so let's say +40, for a total of 95,1 armor. Youmuu against a lv 10 enemy gives 14,6 arpen.
There we go:
Draven vs adc: Essence Reaver -> 98,28, with a 20% critical rate which makes for an average of 117,94 per auto. Youmuu -> 101,47.
Draven vs tank: Essence Reaver -> average of 91,34 per auto. Youmuu -> 76,73.
So yeah, I'm sorry to say, but as first item, Essence Reaver is technically speaking a better item than Youmuu's against any type of enemy if you deal your damage with autos only.
Samflash31 votesHow is it if we factor Draven's Q?
Fefnil3 votesOk, let's see. At level 10 Draven will most probably have Q at max level, so it adds 50 + 105% bonus AD, so it adds 123,5 with ER and 113 with YG. Now:
Draven vs adc: Essence Reaver -> 199,67. Youmuu -> 184,25.
Draven vs tank: Essence Reaver -> 173,07. Youmuu -> 139,33.
Looks like that 20% increase from crit is still too good, even against squishies and if Q doesn't crit.
LankPants1 votesWhat if we give Ghostblade Draven the extra 2 Longswords he gets from Ghostblade being 700 gold cheaper?
I've done the calculation, that makes Ghostblade AAs deal more damage in pretty much any case and makes it vastly superior because of it's active.
Spaceman5pff1 votesOr 
doublelift fg5 votes is the only one of your list close to be op
with lethality? learn the game friend
Spaceman5pff2 votesMy bad, meant to pull him off the list.
Varus and Jhin are 100% a problem with lethality stacking though. There is no way around it. They were already top-tier ADC with lethality stacking BEFORE it got buffed.
doublelift fg5 votesVarus with lethality is a problem because his Q literally removes 50% of your hp from 1500 range and his Q is hard to dodge unlike what people think
Jhin with lethality can be played around, his ulti can be blocked same with W, and you can dodge the shots
SzGamer2272 votesVarus and Jhin are occasionally taking 
instead of . This can hardly be called Lethality stacking.
If you want to talk about an adc that is abusing Lethality stacking, I suggest you check out Miss Fortune's most frequent core builds in Gold+ on leagueofgraphs.com.
dominusx13 votesthis and make 
melee only and we gucci
Shadòw20 votesor just remove it.
i mean, the item literally only causes balance issues
ForgiveColour8 votesLmao not sure why youre downvoted when that item is just pure aids to play against
Shadòw4 votes
mains
Kaioko11 votesYou don't need to remove ADC's ability to use lethality. If tanks actually become prevalent again and games aren't over by 20 minutes ADCs will go back to building for late game and for constant damage. Right now having consistent late game damage is useless so lethality is just a better go to build for them.
In other words, the issue isn't that ADCs are abusing it, but simply that the meta is absolute crap right now.
SGT Dingle Berry7 votesIt's like everyone forgot last week when ADCs were 100% useless. A 20% lethality boost at least let's them partake in fights earlier. Dunno why everyone thinks assassins need pen, they shouldn't be able to fight a tank anyway.
CppL58 votes[{quoted}](name=SGT Dingle Berry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xwgotmvf,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-02-01T14:26:26.144+0000)
It's like everyone forgot last week when ADCs were 100% useless. A 20% lethality boost at least let's them partake in fights earlier. Dunno why everyone thinks assassins need pen, they shouldn't be able to fight a tank anyway.
Its been 7 years now ,and adc never was useless ,and never gonna be useless.Only players who cant play them are useless.
King LeBong1 votesYeah ADC was totally not useless for all of the high elo ADC players who resorted to playing offroles and normals for a month
KorZod6 votesBasically this. If me, a goldie, says "wow adc's feel weak" then that could very well be me sucking. If DLift and QTpie and every other high elo player says that ADC's are weak (Thus stuff like ziggs bot, which only exists because he can push and choke out adc's before they scale), then they probably are a little weak. Personally I think just make fervor add on-hit instead of raw AD and on the spell casts like last season and it'll be a pretty good place
GayFluffyUnicorn6 votesDlift and Qtie are basically every high elo player_? Yeah no. Nothing left to say about Dlift and qtie is a personality streamer so yeah he lives off of making memes and giggles.
h5LYF41Lam3 votesadcs are weak in a sense that their damage is mostly increased by infinity and a high critical strike chance,when the game ends at 20 minutes,you have played with an infinity edge and 50-80% critical chance for what 5 minutes at best? thats barely 1/4th of the game and you took the riskiest build possible,no lifesteal no hp no mr no defensive stats whatsoever.while the jayce built black cleaver and mercurias and is dealing the same damage as you in 3/4ths of the game.The reward isnt high enough for the risk adcs take in the early game,in the mid to late game its alright.
KorZod1 votesHe's a personality streamer but both are top 10 in soloqueue so definitely good players and indicative of the best NA adc's. If people at the absolute height of ADC talent think that the role is weaker now than it has been in the past, there probably is some proof to it
Papa Andrei1 votesIs it adcs being weak or everything else being strong?
KorZod1 votesBit of both. Armorpen/fervpr changes really hurt adc's early and mid, and the drag + first blood tower focus just makes it so desirable to destroy botlane. CotC + jungle changes really helps top and jungle in the early game before they even get those tank items, and cotc makes diving tanks way stronger than peeling tanks. Mid is still really strong, but that hasn't ever changed. Support gold and exp changes makes it so that putting a carry bot (malz, zyra, MF) isn't a detriment since they'll do a ridiculous amount of damage anyway, which just takes one more layer of protection away from adcs.
MortalButt4 votesYeah qtpie is washed up trash. He doesn't know what he's talkin about.
Keevalroy3 votesHell yeah.
B1naryB0t2 votesWashed up ex semi-pro.
SSShutTheDuckUp7 votesWell, he plays most ADC and look at where he is on the ladder.
ForgiveColour6 votesYeah because its totally for adc to have only one build path kek
MissingKayo5 votesYeah because it's totally fair for a lategame scaling class to have massive earlygame power without sacrificing lategame power either.
King LeBong5 votesThe class scales hard lategame because of their itemization, lethality builds don't scale that hard.
MissingKayo1 votesLethality scales. Making it increasingly effective against glass cannons who don't buy armor. And % bonus armor penetration is applied before Lethality, so it still hurts tanks severely.
King LeBong3 voteslethality builds don't scale that hard.
Lethality scales.
Do you read before downvoting or
MissingKayo2 votesIt still scales strong enough it doesn't matter it scales less than crit.
King LeBong3 votesYou're trying to argue that you aren't sacrificing lategame power for early game damage, which you sacrifice a lot of late game power by building lethality instead of crit.
MissingKayo3 votesYou sacrifice a lot in RELATIVE COMPARISON to crit. But that doesn't mean anything even if crit in lategame is a mountain if Lethality is a skyscraper, and the players are the people walking around in the streets.
