On 'Ball of Stats' champions

The Sword Saint··11 votes·2,188 views

This essay is listed in my "Master List of Essay Threads" under the title "On Ball of Stat Champions"


A champion is considered a ball of stats when their kit has limited interaction between players aside from 'if I have more stats then you I win, otherwise I lose'.

A good example of this is old warwick, hes either going to out sustain your damage while killing you and win the fight or he doesn't have the stats to do that and dies. He only has auto attacks and two point and click abilities to work with and so there's no real opportunity for either player to make any 'out plays' in a duel with warwick (barring qss or some other gimmicky way of self peeling from his ultimate).

Irelia is another example. She auto attacks you, has tenacity to lower cc duration, has a point and click conditional stun that people fighting against her have little control over if any, and you can't really dodge her ult at the range she uses it from in a fight. She will either sustain through your damage and cc and kill you with her targeted attacks, or she won't and it has little to do with the skill of anyone fighting her. Decision making maybe, gold lead yes, but not skill.

Ball of stats does not refer to champions who buy a lot of stats and then do a lot of damage to you. Zed is not a ball of stats because there's interaction with his shadows, his shuriken is a thin skillshot often used at non point blank range, his spin is melee and can therefor be dodged or avoided, and his ultimate is a window of time where you can go on the defensive or time cc to limit his damage - and that's without considering that you can qss or zhonia the ult to not take any damage from it whatsoever. He's filled with counterplay in that a duel or trade with him has a lot of opportunity to interact and put yourself at an advantage if done well.

Riven is also not a ball of stats for similar reasons. You have plenty of ways and opportunities to interact with her and the outcome of a duel or trade on equal gold champs can be heavily influenced by experience and mechanics as well as anticipation of what she'll do next and when. Her damaging skills are all non targeted which means that they can be missed, baited, or dodged, two of her basic spells are movement spells so getting snared means that not only can't she move but she can't use spells either (and her only defense is tied to movement so a snare might as well be a stun as far as setting her up to get blown up is concerned), her ult does not have an instant effect like warwick or malphite ult or something so if you can bait it out of her and back off it will go on cooldown without having it's full effect, she's squishy so she can be 100-0 unlike the type of champion that builds tank and sustain and out stats you (try catching a darius slightly out of position and blowing him up, he'll probably live long enough for his team to show), etc.

Akali is a ball of stats - her q and ult which constitute all of her damage are point and click and she heals up from bursting people. You can't run from her because of her ultimate, you have to fight her and then she either can tank your damage and kill you first or she can't and she dies.

Ahri is not a ball of stats. You can avoid everything in her kit in one way or another. There are many things you can do in a duel or trade against her that can allow you to win even if you have fewer stats than her (though it will be harder and she can probably live and escape before you can kill her if you are behind).

Garen is not a ball of stats. He has to hit you with his spin, preferably isolated and preferable with you being the villain, to get his damage off and his ultimate doesn't do any damage unless you are low hp already. His passive sustain can be kept in check just by interacting with him regularly, so it doesn't factor into whether he will win a fight other than him having more of his hp bar full at the start.

Darius is not a ball of stats. His hook and spin are telegraphed non targeted spells that put him at a disadvantage if missed that can be capitalized on. His ult requires him to stack his passive 5 times, and his q has a good and a bad hitbox even if it does hit. You can effect the outcome of a trade or duel with darius by playing around his abilities.

Careful now, don't muddle the distinction between ball of stats and 'point and click champ'.

Vayne and yi have aspects of their kit that let them and their enemies alter the outcome of a fight, they have interactions.

Vayne can knock you into a wall for the stun or you can position so she can't do that. She can tumble stealth but if you brought an upgraded sweeper, pink ward, or vision like lulu's e then you can take that away from her. She has to hit the same target 3 times for her true damage so if she has to deal with multiple people (such as in a team fight or... just being in botlane) she loses a lot of damage if she's forced to switch targets repeatedly. She's not a ball of stat champion because of these interactions that can alllow actions of either player to alter the outcome of a fight.

Yi has alpha strike which if used correctly can dodge big spells such as cc and damaging ultimates, conversely someone fighting yi can throw out lower priority spells at him while knowing that he either has to ear them or dodge them with alpha and be wide open for a bigger spell like a cc or an ult. His true damage is a temporary active skill that when on cooldown costs him the passive ad boost he would otherwise get, so if you cc him or otherwise manage to avoid him for a short while he loses a large chunk of his auto damage. His meditate can be used to block big damage spells since it heals and has damage reduction, but its a channel so you can knock him out of it with a hard cc and he roots himself to do it so if you force him to meditate you can take a positional advantage on him (more teamates catching up, moving between him and his turret, etc). So, with all these interactions and ways for yi or the enemy to outplay each other, yi is not a ball of stat champion.

I will reiterate the point: a ball of stat champion turns fights into a stat check where they either win or lose purely on numbers, with little to no interaction possible on either side to alter the outcome.

TLDR: "ball of stat" champions have little or no way for either player to effect the outcome of a fight through skill, it's just a numbers check. If there is potential for the champion or their enemies to take actions that effect the outcome, they aren't a ball of stats.

33 Comments

shadecrapper6 votes

I would put Garen down for ball of stats. He's not that much different then WW

The Sword Saint2 votes

I already went over garen. How you personally feel about him or any other champion doesn't change the reality that there are things you can do in any given engagement with garen to limit his damage to you no matter what stats he has. You can cc him during his spin and back off, you can save a spell shield or parry or something for his ult, you can slow him after he's used his q to gain speed and make it time out before he can get to you.

You can't time out a warwick q or his auto attacks and his ult is instant so you need to have a qss or something unless you get super lucky with a spellshield on a horribly telegraphed ult.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

The reality that your entire list revolves around 'point&click' champions makes the subject you're debating misleading.

Vayne & yi would fall into this category by your definitions since their kits are nothing but point&click. Garen has a single aoe, but is otherwise nothing but close range targeted attacks. But here's a better question, when do you see a warwick jungle? Next to never these days, so quit complaining about a fluke match.

The Sword Saint5 votes

Careful now, don't muddle the distinction between ball of stats and 'point and click champ'.

Vayne and yi have aspects of their kit that let them and their enemies alter the outcome of a fight, they have interactions.

Vayne can knock you into a wall for the stun or you can position so she can't do that. She can tumble stealth but if you brought an upgraded sweeper, pink ward, or vision like lulu's e then you can take that away from her. She has to hit the same target 3 times for her true damage so if she has to deal with multiple people (such as in a team fight or... just being in botlane) she loses a lot of damage if she's forced to switch targets repeatedly. She's not a ball of stat champion because of these interactions that can alllow actions of either player to alter the outcome of a fight.

Yi has alpha strike which if used correctly can dodge big spells such as cc and damaging ultimates, conversely someone fighting yi can throw out lower priority spells at him while knowing that he either has to ear them or dodge them with alpha and be wide open for a bigger spell like a cc or an ult. His true damage is a temporary active skill that when on cooldown costs him the passive ad boost he would otherwise get, so if you cc him or otherwise manage to avoid him for a short while he loses a large chunk of his auto damage. His meditate can be used to block big damage spells since it heals and has damage reduction, but its a channel so you can knock him out of it with a hard cc and he roots himself to do it so if you force him to meditate you can take a positional advantage on him (more teamates catching up, moving between him and his turret, etc). So, with all these interactions and ways for yi or the enemy to outplay each other, yi is not a ball of stat champion.

I will reiterate the point: a ball of stat champion turns fights into a stat check where they either win or lose purely on numbers, with little to no interaction possible on either side to alter the outcome.

shadecrapper3 votes

Like Fiora before the rework :)

The Sword Saint3 votes

Exactly right.

windwolf7771 votes

I just wanted to say thank you for defending MasterYi. And your points are very well thought out and said throughout this thread.

The Sword Saint2 votes

And thank you for the compliment. People make the confusion about what it means to be a ball of stats alot. That's why I have prepared this as well as many other essays on various nuanced topics so that I can always link to them in order to present a well thought out replay anytime a complex topic is brought up.

windwolf7771 votes

Hey, sorry to bring this topic back from the grave, but how do you feel about Jax?? Because on one hand, I do see him as balanced, and in a quite good place. Variety of builds ranging from tanky to hybrid assassin, decent while on the attack or defense, and a nice kit.

However, I can see you saying he is similar to Akali. Jax's leap is point and click, his stun is in an AoE which while being melee he can gap close with his aforementioned point and click leap, while having a get out of jail free card with his dodge.

I can see both sides of yes and no and was just wanting your opinion. (And possible debate)

The Sword Saint2 votes

It's fine, I link back to this and my other essays a lot, that's the reason I made them, so I'm always prepared to discuss them with those who are interested.

Jax is actually less of a ball of stats than most people probably imagine at first glance.

His stun is melee range, can't be reactivated for a short time which allows people to see that it's coming and react, time's out if you can manage not to be in range, and has a long cooldown window for punishing jax when it's down. It could be argue'd that it's too strong vs autoattacking champs, but it's an iconic jax thing to have an advantage over autoattackers and it can be played around.

His ultimate passive gives him an every third hit damage boost, but you can mitigate that buy timing when you go for a short trade so that he's recently used his ult proc and won't more than maybe one off on you before you disengage.

His ultimate active is a boost to his resists based on the damage he's built, so he tends to be squishy without his ult until around his 3d-4th big items after boots because of the way his power curve works. This gives him windows of vulnerability especially if you can trade with him hard enough to force him to ult to survive. Since his ult is a defensive steroid with a pretty decent duration, the earlier in a fight that he uses it the more jax will get out of it - and yet if he uses it too early people will just disengage in lane and then fight him again in 10 seconds or so when his ult is down and he's squishy again.

His leap is a reliable tool on a low cooldown, but you generally need some reliable way to stick to targets and get out of danger when you're going to be a somewhat damage oriented melee champion, otherwise you'd never survive trying to get into range of a target and get any autos off. It's still got the same problems as other targeted gap closers where if someone saves their mobility and uses it after you've started your leap, you'll land where they used to be instead of where they are now (though the leap damage will still land I believe).

His auto attack reset and passive only serve to reinforce the already established counterplay pattern of forcing short skirmishes instead of long drawn out battles. If you can establish positional control over the minions so jax can't stack up his attack speed or prep his third ult proc freely, then you can make trades go very much in your favor and also probably kill jax if he's mid-low hp fast enough that he his long duration combat specialty doesn't come into play.

windwolf7771 votes

You rock! As I said I saw him as balanced and am glad that you agree with me. Also, I'm posting this as a reminder in threads where people start bashing my mains of MasterYi and Jax.

Thank you for the posts my friend :)

The Sword Saint2 votes

Anytime. It's important not to confuse balance with counterplay though. Even if jax had all the counterplay in the world he wouldn't be balanced if his q did 10,000 damage. It's just a different argument.

shadecrapper1 votes

Tru. Tru.

UnboundCreator1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=guqy5dgn,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-09-24T16:04:27.618+0000)

I already went over garen. How you personally feel about him or any other champion doesn't change the reality that there are things you can do in any given engagement with garen to limit his damage to you no matter what stats he has. You can cc him during his spin and back off, you can save a spell shield or parry or something for his ult, you can slow him after he's used his q to gain speed and make it time out before he can get to you.

You can't time out a warwick q or his auto attacks and his ult is instant so you need to have a qss or something unless you get super lucky with a spellshield on a horribly telegraphed ult.

Sorry but your opinion isn't fact. Garen is a ball of stats and that is commonly known throughout the league community. good try though buddy

The Sword Saint1 votes

{quoted}

Sorry but your opinion isn't fact. Garen is a ball of stats and that is commonly known throughout the league community. good try though buddy

Lol. I stand by my statement, even though you necro'd it from a year ago. 'Commonly known throughout the community' means jack. The vast majority of the community is bronze, silver, or unranked. That alone should be enough to point out how silly it is to take 'commonly known' seriously when that 'common knowledge' conflicts with actual facts and observations.

UnboundCreator1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Saint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=guqy5dgn,comment-id=0000000000020000,timestamp=2017-03-10T14:25:42.372+0000)

Lol. I stand by my statement, even though you necro'd it from a year ago. 'Commonly known throughout the community' means jack. The vast majority of the community is bronze, silver, or unranked. That alone should be enough to point out how silly it is to take 'commonly known' seriously when that 'common knowledge' conflicts with actual facts and observations.

Except in this case even riot themselves has stated that garen is a ball of stats. That's why if he's ever viable in high elo it means something is wrong and they've said that. Just because you wan't to defend this champ it doesn't make him anything other than a ball of stats.

The Sword Saint1 votes

{quoted}

Except in this case even riot themselves has stated that garen is a ball of stats. That's why if he's ever viable in high elo it means something is wrong and they've said that. Just because you wan't to defend this champ it doesn't make him anything other than a ball of stats.

Nope. Even if one or two people at riot can be quoted as saying that at some point it doesn't change reality. A ball of stat champion is one that stat checks you without meaningful counterplay and either they have enough stats to win the fight or they don't. Examples include irelia and old vlad. Garen may have been closer to this definition in the past, but as of the past few seasons with his mini reworks and has enough ways for you to avoid or play around his potential that it's not a straight stat check. You can slow him after he's used q so he doesn't get the mini cleanse and gets kited, you can position so he has to spin on multiple units and gets his spin damage reduced, you can time your burst around when his w is down so he can't use the damage mitigation active to block as much, you can harass him regularly so his passive doesn't kick in, you can use an item such as banshees, edge of night, or qss to prevent him from locking you down with the silence and spinning on you, etc.

Don't really know or care why you decided to seek out and necro this thread that is about stat checking champions in general, but being persistent about it doesn't make you correct - not even by referring to vague paraphrasing of quotes by rioters from who knows when who may or may not have even been referring to the current version of garen.

Durzaka2 votes

You seem to be confusing point and click skills/champions with Balls of Stats.

Mundo is a "ball of stats" champion. As is Shyvana, and they both have skill shots on the important parts of their kit.

Garen falls into the exact into the same category.

The Sword Saint2 votes

Nope. I specifically went out of my way several times to specify that they are not one and the same. Irelia has a skillshot ult and is a ball of stats. Yi and vayne do not have skillshots, but are not balls of stats.

The only thing that matters is whether or not victory in a trade or duel is based purely off of who has the bigger numbers. If that's the situation, then you have a ball of stats champion.

Laustin Space1 votes

Except you can buy QSS for WW and stay away from minion's around Irelia so she doesn't get a reset off her q. Pink wards properly used and or any cc is an Akali's worst nightmare. They aren't just a ball of stats...

For lulz a true ball of stats might be something like Rammus who literally rolls arounds as a ball and just stacks a ton of tank stats to melt everything around him. Ok. B)

The Sword Saint1 votes

They have some counterplay but not enough to be significant. Akali and irelia are the go to examples of a ball of stats, as used by many rioters whenever the topic comes up (or whenever akali's or irelias balance comes up)

WalkingInACircle1 votes

Really I feel like being a ball of stats is what the identity of a fighter should be. That's what they do, overpower you straight up. You can give them some abilities like Jax's E but ultimately he's out to beat you up by being bigger than you.

The Sword Saint3 votes

Riot made that same mistake in early season, but that way of thinking leads to many design issues.:

Falling behind in lane a little means you'll lose every stat check, so ball of stat champs are super snowbally.

There are also only so many ways you can come up with to have a champion do damage to another without any form of counterplay before they all start to blend together and prevents champs from forming a real identity for why you'd ever pick one over another other than which one happens to currently have the highest winrate.

You run out of ways to make more champions who follow this pattern and are forced to escalate with champs who do the same thing, but better (the akali vs diana situation for example, and even then they gave diana a skillshot to try and branch out a little bit).

Additionally, there's a very limited sense of satisfaction or mastery over these types of champions - you don't tend to feel like you're being creative or making out plays so much as crunching numbers or something and picking the right time to engage (reading an irelia guide by Irelia Carries U is a great way to improve, but it mostly comes down to 'these are the mathimaticaly calculated times when you will win fights so be sure to never go in except for these times').

For these reasons and more, riot has decided to move away from 'ball of stats champions' and actively work nowadays to give champions mechanical opportunities to be strong or weak depending on how skilled the players are. You see examples of this in the sion and fiora reworks where they turned the champions from being point and click stat checks into fighters with many opportunities to make plays and to be out played.

Ralanr1 votes

Would you consider Pantheon a ball of stats champion? Considering his basic lane strategy and his 2 point and click abilities.

I don't hate Pantheon, he's one of my favorite champions. But that's only because of his ult and passive.

The Sword Saint1 votes

Yeah, pretty much. he has some strategic decision power with his ult, but generally speaking in a fight with him you can either survive his damage and beat him or you cant, and the same for laning: you can either handle his spear harass and survive the lane or you can't and fall very behind. It really has more to do with which champion you're fighting pantheon with rather than your own abilities (assuming panth doesn't make too many mistakes).

Ralanr1 votes

I do hope that if riot ever does rework him they add more interaction into his kit.

The Sword Saint3 votes

Me too, even as a pantheon player you deal with the same problems: either you are able to dominate lane with spears and win fights with your short-mid range unavoidable burst or you can't and are basically useless. No matter how much you want to keep that enemy toplaner down because they outscale you, if their kit allows them survive your harass it just feels like you're wasting mana and slowly losing the game with every cs due to the way you fall off.

Ralanr1 votes

My basic experience with Zed or Darius top. It already feels like Darius can beat Pantheon in his early game laning due to the damage and heal from his Q and Pantheon's lack of escape. Can't even cancel the spin.

Then there was that time I fought a Zed top lane. Holy hell he was a monster. I couldn't bring him down fast enough, and I had AD Marks and Quints! He bullied me out of my lane. I usually play better, but when your only abilities are so linear that you can't maneuver with them to overcome problems, well it's tough. Only Pantheon's ult can be used for something beyond dealing damage.

For an Artisan of war, he certainly doesn't know emphasize strategy in his abilities. Giving him some flexibility in his abilities sounds like fun. I know the new Fiora was fun when I tried her. I don't even main Fiora and I loved her ability to avoid attacks, and how you're encouraged to maneuver around your opponent.

X Anivia X1 votes

Who cares? Anivia will kill you all. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

The Sword Saint1 votes

With anivia you can avoid her ult zone, dodge her stun, and play around her wall with positioning and mobility spells so she's not a ball of stats.

Tbh, the nature of mages makes them unlikely to fit into this category (aside from prerework ryze).

Calebindestrctbl1 votes

by your logic, vayne isn't a ball of stats because she has interactions, such as having a potential stun, but it only works conditionally, ok, I agree with that, she has interactions, but why then is irelia considered a ball of stats? Her stun isn't guaranteed, it has interactions, she only gets her stun if you are equal or higher health then she is, you can control your health usually, albeit you have to be smart to do it, you can take a losing trade, you can tank krugs, tank minions, so that you are slightly lower then she is, making it impossible for her to engage on you, you can shield it, or parry it if you are in a matchup such as riven or fiora or anyone with a shield or similar ability, often her e being conditional also means she can't just in a teamfight dive on to a squishy carry and stun them, if she wants the stun she'll probably have to be in flash range which the adc can try and avoid by positioning correctly, that is an interaction, no? And her q has some interaction, she can q to a low health minion, and have her q reset, it won't just reset if it doesn't kill, she can q to a low health minion to get to you, and stun you, but you can position yourself in front of the minion, as long as you are at a point where she can't kill you, you will be in your minion wave, so you should win that trade, that seems like interaction, no? And her ultimate heals for about 20% or so of the damage it does, so that makes fighting in the enemies's large minion wave beneficial, and 1 on 1 her passive is hardly noteworthy, you seem to think it makes a big deal in a 1v1, when, nope, it hardly does unless your jg ganks you mid-fight, in which case irelia is probably has to get the heck outta there unless she's super fed, which is YOUR fault, because she shouldn't be that fed, especially considering, she hard counters almost no top laner, most all of irelia's matchup's are purely skill matchup's with one champion having a slight edge but being beatable, and her w gives her sustain, which means that her enemy, has to think through before trading, do I want to all in her so that she can't sustain, or will I win the trade hard enough so that she can't sustain ennough to make it bad of me to do that trade, or am I pushing a big wave into her tower she will sustain a lot from, a bit like a tryndamere q, which has that type of interaction. I also want to touch on the fact that you were calling her a no skill champion, a large amount of her skill comes from matchups, just look at the irelia vs fiora matchup, I'm going to use gbay99's analysis on this: Fiora vs Irelia is a lot about attack click moving, preventing her from hitting your vitals, if your vital is behind you It's a lot easier to trade with her, you can predict her q and dodge out of the way, then fight her, when you're fighting fiora, there are 4 different possibilites if irelia engages vs fiora, irelia stuns fiora, fiora saves her w, irelia stuns, fiora w's, fiora w's, irelia saves stun, and both champions stun, it has a LOT of depth to it, this is very skill based, you also have to keep in mind the interaction I mentioned, ALL OF IT, it ALL matters in this matchup, you are using all your knowledge and strategy and mechanics to out do fiora's knowledge and strategy and mechanics, you also have to keep in mind when she ulti's you you can predict where she's about to move once she procs her first vital, to the left or to the right you can go next to a wall, to try and make fiora whiff her attack on your vital, sure you can argue that a lot of this matchup depth comes from fiora, but guess what, YOU ALWAYS FIGHT ANOTHER ENEMY CHAMPION WHO HAS THEIR OWN STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES AND POWERSPIKES AND INTERACTIONS VS YOURS, INTERACTIONS THAT COME FROM THE ENEMIES'S KITS VS YOURS CREATE MORE INTERACTIONS

TLDR: no, irelia isn't a ball of stats, she has a lot of interaction in her kit which qualifies her as not being a ball of stats, some of her interaction has hidden depth, that her kit may not show on paper, but is certainly there, I'm guessing that you don't play much irelia, and therefore don't understand how much interaction her kit has, that is part of the beauty of irelia.

P.S. sorry that this was so long, I just like going in depth to educate people on how deep of a champion irelia is to those who don't know how deep she is when played properly or at a decently high level of play.

The Sword Saint1 votes

I've played and played against Irelia plenty, which is why I used her as an example. I also read through your terribly formatted wall of text.

It's a pretty weak stance to insist that someone who disagrees with you must not know what they are talking about.

In any event, whether Irelia is the best example or not is not the point of this thread, which is merely to help get the idea across of what 'ball of stats' means.

Calebindestrctbl1 votes

I never said that you disagreeing with me means you must not know what you are talking about, I was saying I guessed that you didn't play very much irelia, considering you didn't seem to show much understanding of her hidden depth, (which I mentioned a lot) which seems to be the case considering you say you mentioned her off of playing against her, not playing her yourself, which tends to be how you learn the counterplay hidden depth etc. You hardly gave irelia a complete case in judging whether or not she is a ball of stats champion, and the post seems to be largely about judging whether or not a champion is a ball of stats or not, so I feel that whether or not irelia is the best example or not is a part of the thread that relates to the purpose of he thread as a whole.

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