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i propose a higher cost item where we get mana/ap/CDR from an item and say 90AP/mana/10% CDR + passives (maybe less ap, idk) AA staff is the only flat mana item built if at all by mid lane mages and thats only for champions with huge mana issues. if this were added we would see mages able to stay in lane longer and the CDR would help it as an item all around.
Lord Dusteon5 votesSo you want an item to both provide truly massive AP (Just with it's own mana at full stacks it gives 90 AP; with a base 1000 mana it gives 120 AP which is as much as a NLR item), EXTREMELY high mana amounts, and also cooldown reduction? Why don't you just suggest it has magic penetration to while you are at it?
Very Hard Engage2 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsxEAwKJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-13T01:11:44.205+0000)
So you want an item to both provide truly massive AP (Just with it's own mana at full stacks it gives 90 AP; with a base 1000 mana it gives 120 AP which is as much as a NLR item), EXTREMELY high mana amounts, and also cooldown reduction? Why don't you just suggest it has magic penetration to while you are at it?
oh im sorry, i was so stupid as to ask for more ap mid laner item diversity, sorry, must build morello > rab cap > void staff > zhonyas > ludens echo > sorc boots in 100% of the games im in.
do you have any idea how narrow build paths are for mid laners? or do just not play mid lane at all.
im not saying the item should be as godly like triforce or infinity edge, nerf stats, im not a balance expert, but its high time for another CDR item.
we focus on abilities, yet were gated by mana. yet adcs have cleaver youmuu zephyr essence reaver, they focus on multiple attacks yet they can get all the cdr they need or want without the item revolving around cdr. yet its so incredibly hard for us ap mid laners to reach 40% cdr without cripplingly low damage output.
Sona Ping2 votesoh im sorry, i was so stupid as to ask for more ap mid laner item diversity,
It's okay that you were stupid in your methods about it but thing is you didn't even ask for more ap mid lane item diversity. You even said:
its high time for another CDR item.
All you suggested were changes that reduce the diversity of item choice by making one item so much better than the others.
Very Hard Engage1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsxEAwKJ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-13T05:31:35.980+0000)
It's okay that you were stupid in you methods about it but thing is you didn't even ask for more ap mid lane item diversity. You even said:
All you suggested were changes that reduce the diversity of item choice by making one item so much better than the others.
dont object becuase the numbers i suggested arent to your standards, do you know how ludicrous it is to make your critical hits even stronger? or how about "lets deal an extra 200 damage! for using an ability in any capacity!"
Sona Ping4 votesWhat?! This response of yours doesn't even make sense. It's not that I am disagreeing, it's that your response has absolutely no relevance to anything I wrote.
Very Hard Engage1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsxEAwKJ,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-14T03:13:19.353+0000)
What?! This response of yours doesn't even make sense. It's not that I am disagreeing, it's that your response has absolutely no relevance to anything I wrote.
then you didnt read the OP at all, im suggesting an item with mana/ap/cdr, thats it, dont care about stats, abilities, uses, any of that. comment on THAT.
Sona Ping2 votesI am going to be as _clear _as I possibly can
dont object becuase the numbers i suggested arent to your standards,
There is not a single thing in my entire post even slightly related to the numbers you wrote; Hence, your response is senseless.
And again, being as clear as possible as reading doesn't seem to be your strong suit:
then you didnt read the OP at all,... comment on THAT.
I ALREADY DID THAT. You are only suggesting making one item stronger by giving it more stats for no good reason. You aren't even addressing what you said was your concern, lack of a new CDR item. Giving more stats to Archangel's Staff, doing that in the best case would reduce item diversity because the item would fulfill more Mage needs in just one item. That is what I wrote and that is what you are failing to understand.
Very Hard Engage1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsxEAwKJ,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-15T06:21:22.552+0000)
I am going to be as _clear _as I possibly can
There is not a single thing in my entire post even slightly related to the numbers you wrote; Hence, your response is senseless.
And again, being as clear as possible as reading doesn't seem to be your strong suit:
I ALREADY DID THAT. You are only suggesting making one item stronger by giving it more stats for no good reason. You aren't even addressing what you said was your concern, lack of a new CDR item. Giving more stats to Archangel's Staff, doing that in the best case would reduce item diversity because the item would fulfill more Mage needs in just one item. That is what I wrote and that is what you are failing to understand.
because AA staff is rarely built for anything besides mana. everyone goes morello/sorc boots > rab cap > zhonyas/void/ludens echo. there is no deviation, it is the clear cut best damaging build, anything else gives less damage and is compensating for poor stats and they flat out need mana because of their ridiculous mana costs.
"why does karthus build it" so he can keep his W on, without AA he ooms in 10seconds. "why does orianna sometimes build it" because she spams with her low CD's. otherwise shes very conservative with her casts. "why does no one else build it" because they need straight damage to 100-0 someone which even now is now more difficult in the tank meta, forcing us to stay in fights longer, with the crippled mana regeneration items that leaves max mana as a possible substitute.
if you think you can do better at adding a mana/ap/cdr item into the game then go right ahead. suggest something. 100% of adcs build IE, not an OP item at all. "balanced"
Sona Ping1 votesbecause AA staff is rarely built for anything besides mana.
You mean an item has a clear use and is built for specific purposes? While other items are chosen for their properties in different situations? That's item diversity!
Again, because you didn't read it the first two times. What you are proposing is giving a single item more stats, making it be built more often only by making it more powerful. To be clear:
Your only idea is to make Archangel's Staff more powerful, meaning there would be no reason not to build it every time, reducing item diversity
And that's the best case scenario! It could possibly additionally hurt champion diversity through how it would buff or hurt champions based on how it would perform or it's increased cost.
And these: "everyone goes morello/sorc boots > rab cap > zhonyas/void/ludens echo." "100% of adcs build IE, not an OP item at all." are not even factual in the first place and it makes me wonder about where you getting your ideas from. Since when does someone playing Vayne ever rush IE or even build it? Or Ezreal or Corki for that matter.
Very Hard Engage1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsxEAwKJ,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-16T00:49:32.241+0000)
You mean an item has a clear use and is built for specific purposes? While other items are chosen for their properties in different situations? That's item diversity!
Again, because you didn't read it the first two times. What you are proposing is giving a single item more stats, making it be built more often only by making it more powerful. To be clear:
Your only idea is to make Archangel's Staff more powerful, meaning there would be no reason not to build it every time, reducing item diversity
And that's the best case scenario! It could possibly additionally hurt champion diversity through how it would buff or hurt champions based on how it would perform or it's increased cost.
And these: "everyone goes morello/sorc boots > rab cap > zhonyas/void/ludens echo." "100% of adcs build IE, not an OP item at all." are not even factual in the first place and it makes me wonder about where you getting your ideas from. Since when does someone playing Vayne ever rush IE or even build it? Or Ezreal or Corki for that matter.
its a 2700 cost item. the stats it gives is (when its seraphs embrace and not still stacking up) 60ap (becomes +30 from SE alone, bonus ap from mana) well say 100ap , +1000mana, + 50% base mana regen. the mana regen is worthless because of its monumental mana addition, and 100ap. the active of 20%mana shield is worthless because it shields for about 400damage, that isn't going to save your life if you're caught out, maybe from an ignite but if were at the stage of the game where i have a fully stacked SE they also have some items behind me and any ap mid laner is just going to pop. let alone give me time to shield myself vs zhonyas. if you're caught you're dead.
so all it really gives is AP and mana.
adding codex in would bump it up to 3520 + combine cost. would still be less than IE/triforce. adding in 10% CDR wouldn't be monumentally different.
Sona Ping1 votesDude, what the hell? Make up your mind, as well as your own opinion. First you come yelling at me for talking about numbers, when I didn't even mention them, now you're writing a post, when the issue wasn't numbers, talking about numbers. But fine, I'll talk about numbers later.
The point is Archangel/Seraph is chosen for a large mana pool which is wanted on certain casters and will stack over the course of the game and give them mid to late game power. The champions who want this like Ryze, Cassiopeia and Karthus don't particulary want CDR and the champions who want CDR don't want an Archangel's Staff. They wouldn't even want it with 10% CDR because a lot of them can't stack the blasted thing!
So what you are actually doing is just suggesting to dump more stats on an item to try to make it be picked all the time, even if those stats have no place on the item. Like Dusteon said: "Why don't you just suggest it has magic penetration to while you are at it?" The kicker is that you are saying this in the name of "improving item diversity" when what you are doing is trying to make one item have all the stats a mage would want and building Archangel's Staff every game because it has all the stats, that's the opposite of item diversity! I don't like repeating myself.
Further, I don't know what Infinity Edge did to your family to make you have such a chip on your shoulder about it, but it makes no sense that you would then use IE, with all the problems you have with it, as justification for the change. Like I said, make up your opinion.
And no, that is not an insignificant gold increase. The gold cost increase to machete hit a lot of junglers quite hard and reduced both their viability and ability to clear and that first increase was only 75 gold. It makes no sense with how this game functions to blow off that much gold but you additionally did that with half the stats of Archangel's Staff calling them worthless, which is just goddamn plain false, so I don't even know what to say to you anymore.
Very Hard Engage1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsxEAwKJ,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-17T03:21:36.973+0000)
Dude, what the hell? Make up your mind, as well as your own opinion. First you come yelling at me for talking about numbers, when I didn't even mention them, now you're writing a post, when the issue wasn't numbers, talking about numbers. But fine, I'll talk about numbers later.
The point is Archangel/Seraph is chosen for a large mana pool which is wanted on certain casters and will stack over the course of the game and give them mid to late game power. The champions who want this like Ryze, Cassiopeia and Karthus don't particulary want CDR and the champions who want CDR don't want an Archangel's Staff. They wouldn't even want it with 10% CDR because a lot of them can't stack the blasted thing!
So what you are actually doing is just suggesting to dump more stats on an item to try to make it be picked all the time, even if those stats have no place on the item. Like Dusteon said: "Why don't you just suggest it has magic penetration to while you are at it?" The kicker is that you are saying this in the name of "improving item diversity" when what you are doing is trying to make one item have all the stats a mage would want and building Archangel's Staff every game because it has all the stats, that's the opposite of item diversity! I don't like repeating myself.
Further, I don't know what Infinity Edge did to your family to make you have such a chip on your shoulder about it, but it makes no sense that you would then use IE, with all the problems you have with it, as justification for the change. Like I said, make up your opinion.
And no, that is not an insignificant gold increase. The gold cost increase to machete hit a lot of junglers quite hard and reduced both their viability and ability to clear and that first increase was only 75 gold. It makes no sense with how this game functions to blow off that much gold but you additionally did that with half the stats of Archangel's Staff calling them worthless, which is just goddamn plain false, so I don't even know what to say to you anymore.
go right ahead, play ad all your life. AA for life, no restrictions. you just dont know the struggle of ap mid laners right now. were severely taxed for missing, and when we do just as much as a crit from any adc.
im focusing on the concept of ap mid laners being able to combo their kit, drop 1 person, and now suddenly they're irrelevant because all their things are on CD. adcs dont have that problem.
ap mid laners need cdr, somewhere, and its quite difficult for us to build it without putting us so far behind in damage compared to building other items first. but if we build other items first we have mana/follow up issues.
Sona Ping1 votesAnd now you are disregarding everything, blowing off all the explanations because I "must only have ever played ADC, I must have because no one could play mages and disagree with you", huh?
That's just bullshit; You're just ignoring everything you don't want in your view and making blanket statements about mages while acting like the only ones in the game are Annie, Lux, and Syndra.
No one is going to discuss things if you are being bullheaded and deaf.
Very Hard Engage1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gsxEAwKJ,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-17T23:27:45.062+0000)
And now you are disregarding everything, blowing off all the explanations because I "must only have ever played ADC, I must have because no one could play mages and disagree with you", huh?
That's just bullshit; You're just ignoring everything you don't want in your view and making blanket statements about mages while acting like the only ones in the game are Annie, Lux, and Syndra.
No one is going to discuss things if you are being bullheaded and deaf.
ive explained several times a mana/ap/cdr item would be a good addition, and adding onto archangel staff for a higher combine cost would make it a stronger more picked item, thats it, now please, go somewhere else, im tired of talking to a brick.
Sona Ping1 votesmake it a stronger more picked item
**And making something able to always be picked opposite of the "item diversity" which you hold so dear. ** It's not a hard concept.
Linna Excel1 votesWe need an item that builds out of 
+
!
Goujian1 votesBecause Morellonomicon and Grail doesn't have mana regen coupled with 20% CDR already?
Very Hard Engage1 votesBecause Morellonomicon and Grail doesn't have mana regen coupled with 20% CDR already?
which gives less damage, and mana regen is useless to a champion with a low base mana pool. using 4 spells in lane means you're oom for a champion like veigar. making him completely unable to use his combo. and unable to perform his job as damage dealer.