why hasn't riot toned down vaynes hp percent true damage?

SantanaTheSlick ·Aug 9, 2015·31 votes·10,886 views

its really annoying early game

82 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 9, 201544 votes

Seems like something we'd prefer not to touch since it's such a core part of the character's identity. If I had to nerf Vayne, it certainly wouldn't be the first place I'd look to hit. I'd prefer to just nerf her early game or reduce the flat damage component of Silver Bolts, but the percent part of it seems pretty core to the identity of the character.

windwolf777Aug 10, 20156 votes

Yeah, honestly, even as one who really likes Vayne (almost a secondary main) I wouldn't mind seeing the flat being removed. Either that or make her squishy since she does have some defenseive maneuvers in tumble and condemn.

BaunjoAug 10, 20152 votes

Squishy is a term constituted in all ADC's, and vayne is no exception. Tumble and condemn do not add to her defensive stats, they are utility. I suggest you revise that statement

Troy242621Aug 10, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Seems like something we'd prefer not to touch since it's such a core part of the character's identity. If I had to nerf Vayne, it certainly wouldn't be the first place I'd look to hit. I'd prefer to just nerf her early game or reduce the flat damage component of Silver Bolts, but the percent part of it seems pretty core to the identity of the character.

Out of curiosity, how would you nerf her early game? Seems like EVERYTHING in her kit works to the effect of preventing enemies from punishing her early game. She's already pretty weak early game. The problem is she's just not vulnerable early game, especially not with supports like Kench/Thresh around.

At best you can hard deny CS, but she still remains a ticking time bomb, and one kill will close the gap nearly instantly. Considering she's a duelist, even when behind she can out-duel a huge portion of the ADCs out there. How would this be affected by your change?

Making her more punishable is an interesting endeavor, I'd really love to hear your thoughts on this. Of course, all hypothetical.

CreationFlawAug 10, 201512 votes

{quoted}

Out of curiosity, how would you nerf her early game? Seems like EVERYTHING in her kit works to the effect of preventing enemies from punishing her early game. She's already pretty weak early game. The problem is she's just not vulnerable early game, especially not with supports like Kench/Thresh around.

At best you can hard deny CS, but she still remains a ticking time bomb, and one kill will close the gap nearly instantly. Considering she's a duelist, even when behind she can out-duel a huge portion of the ADCs out there. How would this be affected by your change?

Making her more punishable is an interesting endeavor, I'd really love to hear your thoughts on this. Of course, all hypothetical.

Easy. Reduce the knock-back range of Condemn, and make it scale with rank. Therefore = Less safety, less peel early game to escape easily.

Trash ADC BtwAug 10, 20153 votes

Simple, elegant, maybe not quite good enough, but worth a try. :)

Take my upvote, sir.

TotalJerkAug 10, 20153 votes

That creates scenarios where Vayne (and her team) is punished for leveling it. The more points she puts into it, the harder it will be to chase someone she hits.

BârdAug 10, 20151 votes

Only if you fail it. Bad vayne E's have always been irritating for her allies.

TotalJerkAug 10, 20151 votes

My point is that she'd have an incentive NOT to level her E because it allows her to have an easier time tumbling after a target when she hits it. It might also do little to prevent her from self-peeling because the part of it that keeps Vayne safe is the fact that the target is in a state of being "knocked up" while flying away from her. It's brief hard CC whether it's the current 470 range or 300

VerxintAug 10, 20151 votes

If a vayne condemns and then tumbles towards the person she just condemned, in a bot lane 2v2.. That's just an incredibly stupid idea.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 201520 votes

how would you nerf her early game?

If I had to nerf Vayne's, I'd probably try to first think about why she's too strong in the first place. How did she go from someone seen as having a bad early game to someone seen as pretty average in the early game?

Though these first few suggestions aren't directly nerfs to Vayne and have other implications, I'd probably ask why Caitlyn, Lucian, and other historical lane bullies aren't doing their job to keep her in check. So first, I'd ask why other lane bullies that used to give her trouble aren't being played anymore, and maybe look into that (though that's a multi-champion change).

Also, I'd probably try to determine what exactly is the issue with her early game. Is her early game actually too strong? Or does the state of the game just more or less guarantee that she gets her late game? This second part can be especially relevant, because it makes less sense to have champions that are so disproportionately strong in the late game if games are tending to go five minutes longer than they used to (not sure on the exact numbers on game length at the moment, to be honest).

I'll admit I'm absolutely not an expert on marksman balance, so don't take my suggestions here as gospel. However, there are lots of ways to nerf a champion's early game. Off the top of my head:

Base AD nerf and increase AD/lvl. Just a couple Base AD makes a huge difference in early game power. I reduced Nidalee's base AD when she was a terror in top lane late last season, and she basically disappeared from the lane.
Scale her spell damages or cooldowns non-linearly, with the later ranks giving more value than the first. This is unconventional, but there's no reason we really can't do it. For instance, if Tumble's cooldown was only reduced by .5 seconds at early ranks, and 1.5 in the last few (or something like that.
Probably a bad idea, but maybe Vayne could have 325 or lower MS and have her passive MS increased. I think one of the things about Vayne is that she's supposed to be a statement pick, like "I know this champion isn't good early game, but I'm better than you and can win regardless." Something like this may play that up, though at the expense of snowballiness.

Anyway, just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Ch0c0lateJesusAug 10, 20154 votes

I'm kind of sick of the idea of champs specifically designed to have a strong late game. Shouldnt power and carry potential be earned through good play and not champion pick?

Vayne's "late game" starts when she gets item 3153 At this point she can kill anything 1v1 simply because of her silver bolts. Considering most carries cant 1v1 anything without 2 or even 3 full items, I would say Vayne has a very small window of weakness compared to her power spike.

AnidanAug 10, 20151 votes

Power and carry potential are partially based on the champion pick because, at its core, this is still a MOBA game. You can't just remove a whole element of the game and then try to keep calling it the same thing. If you remove the ability of a champion pick making a notable impact then you remove one of the core elements of the MOBA genre, one that many people very plainly play for (in addition to the other draws of the game genre). "Should I play Graves for his early dominance or Vayne for her being a late-game powerhouse?" "Should I play Weaver for his early strength, or Spectre for being a late-game God?" etc., is a pretty important type of question in a MOBA game, and if you remove even that then... well, that's pretty bad.

As for WHEN her late-game starts, that may have more to do with balance than the fact that a champion is based around the late-game.

AtekaAug 10, 20151 votes

The problem with Your statement is that there is no such thing as "early game" if You prefer to play as an adc. "Early" and "late" game has no literal connection with actual game time and completely different on each champion. Since it's determined by the number of core items they need to fulfill their role properly (except permanent stat stackers) they only have to farm - both levels and golds. Their usefulness in "early game" doesn't matter because it's literally non-existent. And here comes the problem: a competent Vayne can outduel almost everyone even with item disadventage because of her

targeted abilites
short-term stealth (R)
annoying gap closers (passive + Q)
%HP DMG (W+BOTRK)
effectiveness with only 1 specific item (BOTRK)
disengaging mechanism (E)

TL;DR Vayne's teamfight potential after 6 with BOTRK is huge compared to someone like Caitlyn, or Corki. They need more items, better positioning... etc. Vayne's weaknesses are again, non-existent.

The Yetii RiderAug 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If I had to nerf Vayne's, I'd probably try to first think about why she's too strong in the first place. How did she go from someone seen as having a bad early game to someone seen as pretty average in the early game?

Though these first few suggestions aren't directly nerfs to Vayne and have other implications, I'd probably ask why Caitlyn, Lucian, and other historical lane bullies aren't doing their job to keep her in check. So first, I'd ask why other lane bullies that used to give her trouble aren't being played anymore, and maybe look into that (though that's a multi-champion change).

Also, I'd probably try to determine what exactly is the issue with her early game. Is her early game actually too strong? Or does the state of the game just more or less guarantee that she gets her late game? This second part can be especially relevant, because it makes less sense to have champions that are so disproportionately strong in the late game if games are tending to go five minutes longer than they used to (not sure on the exact numbers on game length at the moment, to be honest).

I'll admit I'm absolutely not an expert on marksman balance, so don't take my suggestions here as gospel. However, there are lots of ways to nerf a champion's early game. Off the top of my head:

Base AD nerf and increase AD/lvl. Just a couple Base AD makes a huge difference in early game power. I reduced Nidalee's base AD when she was a terror in top lane late last season, and she basically disappeared from the lane.

Scale her spell damages or cooldowns non-linearly, with the later ranks giving more value than the first. This is unconventional, but there's no reason we really can't do it. For instance, if Tumble's cooldown was only reduced by .5 seconds at early ranks, and 1.5 in the last few (or something like that.

Probably a bad idea, but maybe Vayne could have 325 or lower MS and have her passive MS increased. I think one of the things about Vayne is that she's supposed to be a statement pick, like "I know this champion isn't good early game, but I'm better than you and can win regardless." Something like this may play that up, though at the expense of snowballiness.

Anyway, just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Lane bullies are struggling because Riot reduced the AD that they can reasonably build in lane.

BT gave 100 AD and was a rush, which made it so that champions with high AD ratios like Graves, Caitlyn and Lucian could hit their mid game power spikes pretty easily and crush their lane opponents.

Now, though, with champions building 20 less AD early and not getting a significant amount of lifesteal, while Vayne is rushing Cutlass to give her more self-peel and sustain, she's simply tanking through the enemy abilities without much care.

Additionally, Riot has nerfed poke supports practically out of existence. Low range marksmen who want to focus on CSing need to be poked out of lane, but Sona is too terrified of Thresh and Leona to be picked, Lulu has been nerfed and basically vanished from bot lane, Soraka lost her manaless poke, and Zyra...I don't know what happened to Zyra but she's basically been non-existent since mid S4.

There's no one to challenge Vayne. If Leona hops on Vayne, Vayne will just knock her back. Poke supports and ratio carries need to be strong to keep Vayne in check, and ratio carries need access to a good mid-game item that provides sustain. Essence Reaver and BT just aren't good enough to be rushed.

ErockandrollAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If I had to nerf Vayne's, I'd probably try to first think about why she's too strong in the first place. How did she go from someone seen as having a bad early game to someone seen as pretty average in the early game?

Though these first few suggestions aren't directly nerfs to Vayne and have other implications, I'd probably ask why Caitlyn, Lucian, and other historical lane bullies aren't doing their job to keep her in check. So first, I'd ask why other lane bullies that used to give her trouble aren't being played anymore, and maybe look into that (though that's a multi-champion change).

Also, I'd probably try to determine what exactly is the issue with her early game. Is her early game actually too strong? Or does the state of the game just more or less guarantee that she gets her late game? This second part can be especially relevant, because it makes less sense to have champions that are so disproportionately strong in the late game if games are tending to go five minutes longer than they used to (not sure on the exact numbers on game length at the moment, to be honest).

I'll admit I'm absolutely not an expert on marksman balance, so don't take my suggestions here as gospel. However, there are lots of ways to nerf a champion's early game. Off the top of my head:

Base AD nerf and increase AD/lvl. Just a couple Base AD makes a huge difference in early game power. I reduced Nidalee's base AD when she was a terror in top lane late last season, and she basically disappeared from the lane.

Scale her spell damages or cooldowns non-linearly, with the later ranks giving more value than the first. This is unconventional, but there's no reason we really can't do it. For instance, if Tumble's cooldown was only reduced by .5 seconds at early ranks, and 1.5 in the last few (or something like that.

Probably a bad idea, but maybe Vayne could have 325 or lower MS and have her passive MS increased. I think one of the things about Vayne is that she's supposed to be a statement pick, like "I know this champion isn't good early game, but I'm better than you and can win regardless." Something like this may play that up, though at the expense of snowballiness.

Anyway, just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Some decent Ideas, Though personally, I would look more at her Attack speed. Particularly because BotRK, which is her core item, is practically a rush item. And that item rushed, practically guarantees that she won't ever get chunked out in an extended trade, while it's active complements her already good chase potential. And this item, has been buffed Twice rather recently. (First time was making it's passive apply LS, Second time was the cast range on the active.)

Assuming that the problem is Vayne's synergy with this item, even at early levels. (and not BotRK being OP) I would probably nerf her Early AS.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 201511 votes

Imo, BotRK rush is generally probably just too strong, especially on champions it synergizes with.

HellioningAug 10, 20156 votes

Yes. I'm glad someone at riot figured out that the anti-tank anti-kiting kite-assist sustained damage burst damage lifesteal item is kinda stupid.

Slamurai JackAug 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Imo, BotRK rush is generally probably just too strong, especially on champions it synergizes with.

item 3153 is honestly just too strong in general regardless of when you built it. I'm a proud abuser of numerous champions that love the item and even I think it's blatantly overtuned. I feel like it should cost as much as item 3072 because it's definitely at least as good as BT.

ReikkenAug 10, 20153 votes

Yes. This item is brokenly strong. Every time I run the numbers it always comes out on top.

First item: Infinity edge or botrk? I run the numbers and find that botrk gives me more dps, and lifesteal and the active on top of that (at least for autoattack based champs. maybe not for casters) Next scenario: I've got Infinity edge and last whisper. What should my next item be? Surely it's phantom dancer since with a crit multiplier and lots of AD, it should be the best. Nope, turns out botrk wins again. Even just in raw damage it's stronger, and then the lifesteal and active come along for free.

Ale non è maleAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Imo, BotRK rush is generally probably just too strong, especially on champions it synergizes with.

The problem is not BoTRK rush - Botrk Rush remains weak since her components are weaker than the other main marksmen item and so when you have finished it you are probably going to be half an item bhind your enemy - , it was BoTRK rework that made it far too strong back then when a lot of people were callin it, and it is still opppressive when the situations are fine for a champ that synergize well with it, as this thing has been hidden only by the changes in the overall meta that disadvantages some of these champs

I make a proposal some time ago on Botrk rework, you can not like it or not or the numbers or not, but I think the important thing is how to differentiate it in the way to make it only an anti tank build item and not a item that just hit every champ in the same way

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/UtrOBnXI-botrk-rework

FlemmanAug 10, 20151 votes

the item is just too strong, too the extend of seeing the item on 4/5 build in the same game. This thing need nerf to not work on every ad champ :s

JefftiffyAug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Imo, BotRK rush is generally probably just too strong, especially on champions it synergizes with.

Yea it was very debatable for me when I saw that change. I was like "WOO better BotRK path!!!!!!!! Oh wait... Champs like Vayne... Um Riot, I think you forgot something..."

And now we are seeing side effects of the better path meaning Vayne has less of a early game power slump in a meta where she already excels.

AL000Aug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Imo, BotRK rush is generally probably just too strong, especially on champions it synergizes with.

yes yes

botrk is overbuff... very strong item on most champions...

it double stats of adc and assassin... there is NO item that can counter botrk after you guys buff it... on next patch you nerf many armor items item include fh and ro... now there is only one way to stop botrk is hard CC (stun, knocked, blinded or suppression) and pink ward/ oracle's len too...

this botkr must be tone down too

BUT

vayne is also too strong champion because most melee CANT trade with her during lane or her ult... same for ahri... vayne has no weakness against tanks or fighter... she required more than 2 champion to gank...

i remember to play against vayne top as garen.. one full silver bolt (3 AA) reduce my hp to 50%... not funny... force me to stay under the turret for 10 min until i have good items or ganks....

AMYS GRAVEAug 10, 20151 votes

Some good thoughts here, I'm glad to see you on the boards chillin with us!

Felyne2Aug 11, 20151 votes

I dont play vayne but ill give you my mind. I think increasing the mana cost is a good idea. enough so that she can't spam it early and need to make management early (cost decreasing in levels like lucians). I think this will keep her late game yet make her early game weak. people will pay a price for spamming her tumble. Also increase the CD of the tumble by a second or few. However, give a mechanic where if you proc silver bolts, it will decrease CD. I think this is a bit too much but I think it won't hurt her too much of her late game by increasing the tumble mana

AL000Aug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I dont play vayne but ill give you my mind. I think increasing the mana cost is a good idea. enough so that she can't spam it early and need to make management early (cost decreasing in levels like lucians). I think this will keep her late game yet make her early game weak. people will pay a price for spamming her tumble. Also increase the CD of the tumble by a second or few. However, give a mechanic where if you proc silver bolts, it will decrease CD. I think this is a bit too much but I think it won't hurt her too much of her late game by increasing the tumble mana

yes

remove it as passive to make it a toggle as make silver bolt cost mana... so she cant spam it anymore... similar to jinx's rocket....

AND make it cap to 200-400 dmg per AA (depend on level)

Earl EulrichAug 10, 20152 votes

nerfing her wonßt do much though - she´s just an insanly binary Champ. Either she has her spikes and the fights gets split up so she can easily clean it up without any counterplay available or she get caught by a 3-5man train and die). It´s just really really unfun to play against, as you constantly have to fear her cleaning up and always have to hold back enough to shut her down when the slightest missstep occurs - otherwise she can 1v5 as one of the few Champs in lol. Also, she really lacks counterplay 1v1 in 90% of all possible matchups from lvl 6 onwards. That might be intended, but it´s just not good design. So do all of us a favour and pin her to the rework list...

Ch0c0lateJesusAug 10, 20154 votes

Have the knockback range of condemn scale with levels so she doesnt have a mini tristana ult with a potential stun every 20 or less seconds.

SH AzykanAug 10, 20151 votes

Would increasing condemn's mana cost and cd at lower ranks be a good idea? Since a lot of times I see vayne's using it to disengage better than a lot of supports can, or even as AA > Tumble > AA> Condemn to just flat out win a very short trade.

Making it more costly to use and limiting its usage offensively could be a decent way to make her early game a little weaker (thinking along the terms of Corki's Valkyrie nerf), and still keep her identity as is.

Also a BotRK nerf could be enough, and it is being abused on enough champs at the moment that it wouldn't be entirely unjustified.

Ace Access Aug 10, 20151 votes

I'd recommend nerfing her base attack speed and the attack speed gain rate per lvl

that one stat is what makes her so deadly since it lets her stack more quickly, maybe you could add a max true dmg vs champs that aren't tanks

armor items getting nerfed is gonna end up giving her a big buff, I'm point fingers mainly at item 3075 nerf

edit: add a max attack speed limit based on vaynes lvl, this way her attack speed can't go over a certain amount based on her current lvl, this way her attack speed will be low

till she reaches lvl6 her attack speed can't be higher than X this goes on for each lvl till the limit is removed at lvl18

AMYS GRAVEAug 13, 20151 votes

Her % max HP true damage will always give her power early game. You can nerf everything about her early game but the sheer power that this item independent damage grants will always be enough to overcome her early game as well as carry into the late game.

colesyAug 9, 201511 votes

it doesn't even matter what type of damage it is early game, you'll have zero resistances anyway

TehNACHOAug 9, 20155 votes

Not to mention it's the flat damage that hurts more early, not the percentage.

JefftiffyAug 9, 20156 votes

{quoted}

it doesn't even matter what type of damage it is early game, you'll have zero resistances anyway

I think they just need to reduce the flat damage. Shrugs.

Nameless VoiceAug 9, 20154 votes

Early game?

Let's say you are Draven, and you are both level 3. Draven has 679 health. 4% of that is ~27 hp. Add the flat damage and Vayne deals 47 true damage on every third attack.

That's less than one autoattack for most ADCs. It's less than nearly every other level 1 skill.

Why is her tiny amount of true damage so annoying early-game?

CasterGilgameshAug 9, 20153 votes

i think it's more that she has a tumble that increased the damage her auto did plus it and her condemn make it really hard to catch her and that her tumble is such a short cd that she can use it to last hit much easier.her tools let her escape assassination much easier than other adcs . and since she gets a stealth and a knock back plus her tumble then on top of that she gets free peel with her true damage and a lot of bonus ad from her ult also her item item 3153 gives her good sustain and she can get it faster than the other adc can get item 3031 . but the thing is unless you are ahead of her she will just out sustain you since you don't have enough crit chance to match her sustain.

Nameless VoiceAug 9, 20153 votes

Yup, I can agree with this. Vayne is annoying to deal with because of her slipperyness, her single-target pushback with little counterplay, and most of all because her core item gives her a lot of sustain. But people don't complain about those. They just complain about the % hp true damage all the time.

CasterGilgameshAug 9, 20151 votes

yah everyone is scared of true damage lol when people saw fiora up date for the first time they all thought it was OP but then people played it and they now think she's bad

Drago ZankaruAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

yah everyone is scared of true damage lol when people saw fiora up date for the first time they all thought it was OP but then people played it and they now think she's bad

she has no ability to initiate or stick to enemies apart from a weak slow, her q doesn't proc her passive even when she dashes through her enemy and her ult is a joke for a person that is suppossed to be a duelist, yeah she is a bad joke now

CasterGilgameshAug 10, 20151 votes

wait what lol thats a lie you can proc her passive with q

TrylobyteAug 10, 20153 votes

I think the main reason Vayne isn't weak early-game is based in her kit. Once you get a modicum of skill with her she goes from being a risky pick with a bad early game to one of the safest ADC picks that's hard to shut down. Think about it:

She has 550 range, which is about average. This means most other ADCs can't really bully her without getting shot in return. She actually outranges most ADC lane bullies, except obviously Caitlyn.
Tumble makes her very safe. Its low cooldown and cheap mana cost make it a great tool for not being hit by anything.
If an enemy gets close she can Condemn them away, keeping her safe from ganks.
Once she gets her ultimate she gains short-term Stealth, making her even harder to pin down or gank.

All this on a hypercarry duelist's kit ensures that she can stay safe early game then explode into the late game unless a disproportionate amount of attention is dumped into shutting her down.

JbelsAug 9, 20152 votes

Because her early game is trash against hard engage supports like Leona, Thresh, and Nautilus?

Sakura MirageAug 9, 20153 votes

Her early game is trash on general I mean if you can't win lane with a bf sword vs a cutlass you're doing something wrong.

JefftiffyAug 9, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Her early game is trash on general I mean if you can't win lane with a bf sword vs a cutlass you're doing something wrong.

That's pretty debatable. Sure you have 20 more AD but cutlass brings 100 magic damage and a slow to the table as well as life steal.

AtheosisXAug 9, 201515 votes

Her early game is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. That's the real issue with her right now. She's just not bad enough early to justify how stupidly strong she is late. And really with her escape tools if she just wants to farm in lane until she gets her BotRK it's not easy to stop her. The Vaynes that get shut down are the ones who try to fight early rather than simply farming up.

YumaS2AstralAug 9, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Her early game is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. That's the real issue with her right now. She's just not bad enough early to justify how stupidly strong she is late. And really with her escape tools if she just wants to farm in lane until she gets her BotRK it's not easy to stop her. The Vaynes that get shut down are the ones who try to fight early rather than simply farming up.

Vayne used to be weak early, but then thanks to people crying, early game ADCs such as Corki, Graves and Miss Fortune got nerfed, also early game supports got nerfed, most people don't have a good enough early game to compete with Vayne now. Not that her early game is strong, is that her early game is no longer weak.

AtheosisXAug 9, 20156 votes

Yeah, I think that sums it up nicely. Vayne has benefited from a kind of nerf holocaust in bot lane. Her crazy late game is still crazy, but now she isn't punished early like she used to be.

Gunslinger744Aug 9, 20153 votes

If I didn't hate Jinx I think I'd pick her over Vayne in most situations, Vayne's early game may have improved but it's still a rather scary time. Jinx can just harrass from extreme range (725?) and take your tower while you're backed. But the problem I have is I enjoy a peaceful lane in which I can trade with my opponent and then go back to farming, not worrying about taking the tower unless the opportunity arises. Draven, Vayne and Ezreal embody that playstyle quite well. Jinx... not so much.