Is tankiness toxic?

Luxxum··3 votes·1,201 views

I should start by defining some terms.

By tanks I mean the traditional tank, a character who's job is to wade through damage by nature of their tankiness.

By toxic, I mean something which lacks most (or all) forms of counterplay. This does not necessarily mean they are overpowered.

By counterplay, I mean an action by a player to avoid or reduce the effects of an action taken by their opponent, usually by outsmarting them.

By counterbuying, I mean buying items which will help you against a particular enemy. This can be considered a from of outplay, but will not be considered so for the purposes of this discussion.

We talk a lot about how certain champions lack counterplay. Trist was changed to help with this and Zilean is in the woks with similar changes. Characters like those, when strong, were oppressive, mostly due to the lack of counterplay involved within their main poke abilities being targeted. The only real counterplay opportunity was the time these abilities took to activate, with trist's e having travel time and Zilean's bombs having a set time before going off. This gave opportunities for allies to assist you with a shield or heal, but not much else. You could try to stay out of range of these abilities, but most champion are unable to do so realistically.

In order for something to not be toxic, it requires the player to be able to make reasonable decisions to avoid what their opponent is trying to do.

Now, what counterplay is there to a fed tank? you cannot outplay their health. Take a tank with no mana and no summoners. there is nothing a skilled player can do to kill the tank faster than a completely new player. You simply must whittle away at them. While this is true for any champion, tank or no, it is far more obvious with tanks. Health is a buffer, which allows a player to make mistakes up until a point at which they die. The more health you have, presumably the more mistakes of equal severity you can make.

Because of this, tanks themselves aren't the problem. Tankiness as a concept is.

All other roles have some form of counterplay most of the time. Many mages have skill-shots o AOE abilities, which can be dodged, while assassins are extremely vulnerable to cc and must be close to an opponent to deal damage. ADCs are generally immoble and either have dps or burst with a smaller amount of dps, which can be played around. Etc. Etc. However, there is no skill involved in building tanky. It is possibly the only role which only requires counterbuying rather than counterplay.

How would you fix this? I personally believe that making tankiness reliant on active abilities would fix a majority of the problems. Something like Vi's innate or Kassadin's q, but to a greater degree. Make tanking an enemy require you to outplay them. Make tanks just as squishy as the rest of the champions, but have certain abilities give them short periods of extreme tankiness which can be played around.

What do ya'll think?

13 Comments

Gunpoint3 votes

Lol. You're kidding right?

M0b1us2 votes

The thing is, pure tanks are actually in a bad place. With the way penetration works, resistances are easily countered by LW or VS. That is why so many "tanks" opt for a fighter build instead and get early damage. Even then, these fighters get shredded late game once the mid or ADC reach critical mass.

Luxxum1 votes

{quoted}

The thing is, pure tanks are actually in a bad place. With the way penetration works, resistances are easily countered by LW or VS. That is why so many "tanks" opt for a fighter build instead and get early damage. Even then, these fighters get shredded late game once the mid or ADC reach critical mass.

As stated, "toxic" does not mean powerful. It means something with a lack of counterplay.

M0b1us2 votes

{quoted}

As stated, "toxic" does not mean powerful. It means something with a lack of counterplay.

There really isn't lack of counter play against tanks. If there wasn't counter play against tanks, then everyone would be building tank as opposed to fighter/bruiser and it would be a pretty dominate issue. Look back in S1 when everyone built warmogs, randuins and atmas. Back then tanks were actually an issue and really didn't have much counter play. Times have changed and now pure tanks actually need some help.

Luxxum1 votes

{quoted}

There really isn't lack of counter play against tanks. If there wasn't counter play against tanks, then everyone would be building tank as opposed to fighter/bruiser and it would be a pretty dominate issue. Look back in S1 when everyone built warmogs, randuins and atmas. Back then tanks were actually an issue and really didn't have much counter play. Times have changed and now pure tanks actually need some help.

Just because a champion is UP doesn't mean it doesn't have counterplay. Malph's poke isn't exactly counterable unless you have a spellshield, but people aren't complaining about tha.

Sooko2 votes

ADCs stopped being generally immobile a long time ago.

Volibear :C

Jubbinaut2 votes

I dunno, I think it's a little weird to ignore counter-building when considering how to counter someone's build.

Minrog2 votes

There are actual logic errors in your post that make it hard for me to understand what you want. I've thought about it for a while, but honestly I came up with completely different interpretations and I can't decide which is the most likely.

  1. You are a level 8 summoner or something. You don't have any runes/masteries/Flash and you believe that Marksmen and Mages are not scaled correctly when matched up against Fighters and Tanks with an equivalent summoner level.

  2. You want to be able to scale in power off of damage gear, but you don't want your opponents to be able to scale off of defensive gear. Ultimately you want to see a game where everyone can one shot each other and instant burst abilities rule over everything.

  3. You believe that champions that build defensive itemization are a champion class. Even though you mention Mages and ADC's who can also build tanky and suddenly become two different classes of champion at once.

  4. You don't realize that champions with the Tank classification already possess limited duration abilities that increase their survivability as you suggested. So I guess you are posting from 2009? Just in case, I thought I should mention that ISIS isn't Junior Varsity and also that we are fighting in Iraq again in case you had a bet going.


You counter itemization with itemization. If they build Armor items, you build Armor penetration. If they build Damage Reflect, you build Lifesteal. If they build Health (which isn't the best way to build defensively most times), you build % Health damage. It's an arms race. Pretending that only Defensive itemization requires "outplay" and Offensive itemization doesn't is disingenuous.

Really, though, you should be more specific. You're not going to get anywhere by obfuscating what you actually want and trying to coax people into a conclusion you are secretly hoping for. Even the people who might agree aren't going to jump on board with this, especially since champions like Alistar are already squishy in base stats and have the exact thing you already suggest as the fix.

Which champions are too strong? Which items are too strong? Be specific.

Luxxum1 votes

{quoted}

There are actual logic errors in your post that make it hard for me to understand what you want. I've thought about it for a while, but honestly I came up with completely different interpretations and I can't decide which is the most likely.

  1. You are a level 8 summoner or something. You don't have any runes/masteries/Flash and you believe that Marksmen and Mages are not scaled correctly when matched up against Fighters and Tanks with an equivalent summoner level.

  2. You want to be able to scale in power off of damage gear, but you don't want your opponents to be able to scale off of defensive gear. Ultimately you want to see a game where everyone can one shot each other and instant burst abilities rule over everything.

  3. You believe that champions that build defensive itemization are a champion class. Even though you mention Mages and ADC's who can also build tanky and suddenly become two different classes of champion at once.

  4. You don't realize that champions with the Tank classification already possess limited duration abilities that increase their survivability as you suggested. So I guess you are posting from 2009? Just in case, I thought I should mention that ISIS isn't Junior Varsity and also that we are fighting in Iraq again in case you had a bet going.


You counter itemization with itemization. If they build Armor items, you build Armor penetration. If they build Damage Reflect, you build Lifesteal. If they build Health (which isn't the best way to build defensively most times), you build % Health damage. It's an arms race. Pretending that only Defensive itemization requires "outplay" and Offensive itemization doesn't is disingenuous.

Really, though, you should be more specific. You're not going to get anywhere by obfuscating what you actually want and trying to coax people into a conclusion you are secretly hoping for. Even the people who might agree aren't going to jump on board with this, especially since champions like Alistar are already squishy in base stats and have the exact thing you already suggest as the fix.

Which champions are too strong? Which items are too strong? Be specific.

I will not give such a haughty person the dignity of a proper answer. I do not have all the answers, or else I wouldn't be making this discussion.

FHMarshy1 votes

There is Vayne with %health TRUE damage.

XaviorZeroBlazer1 votes

considering how damage works in this game classical tanks that could tank, would be toxic. As it stands they tend to be short lived meat shields that serve as distractions until the carries on one side or the other die. Then if they are alive, or alive enough not to be one shot by anything that moves they either push the minion wave or they tank the nearest turret.

Erockandroll1 votes

It's uniteractive to have completely Unkillable tanks. If tanks exist, their needs to be a tank buster. And having a tank that goes down with 3 seconds of ADC fire is probably OK. (fyi, if the tank only lasts 3 seconds in combat, stop complaining about the glass cannon getting 2 shotted.)

The problem with Tanks is that they get bullied in lane. They soak up damage, and then their low on health. If we want Tanks be good in lane (with out turning them into damage bruisers) you need to give them sustain. A good example would be Maokai, and Mundo. They basically can't be bullied out of lane. More so once they reach 6.

The other problem with Tanks (which is more of a popularity issue) The tanks 3 primary jobs are, soak up damage, peel for your squishies, and initiate, Many other roles can do at least one of these jobs well, all while being in a better position to carry. So you can form a team with 4 carries + support, and still be able to do well w/o a dedicated tank.

Luxxum1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with Tanks is that they get bullied in lane. They soak up damage, and then their low on health.

That is another reason why I think that putting tankiness into an active champion's kit would be a good idea. It gives them periods where they can farm and soak up poke, but still allows for more counterplay than "just keep attacking them".

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