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Are silences a good idea on high-damage champions?

Luxxum··8 votes·1,377 views

Is a silence a good gameplay mechanic for champions with high damage? After Talon got his silence removed, people ran around the comments section declaring "Rip Talon", and to a degree from what I have heard (I don't play talon and rarely see him) they were right. Same with LeBlanc. However, Is it really a good idea to have a character's kit balanced around the enemy being literally unable to fight back? A silence takes out all forms of counterplay, as if it hits, your opponent has only their base movement speed and autoattacks to help them. When you couple this with a burst assassin like talon or leblanc, who really only need that small silence to stop a flash or zonyas to get a free kill, it seems to me that it would end up fairly toxic. If counterplay is one of the most important parts of player-interaction, why would you have something like this which more or less removes any form of counterplay? It seems Riot believes this as well, based on the removals, but I am interested to see what ya'll think.

32 Comments

Kuroi8615 votes

Silence plus high burst damage is a bit toxic. This can't really be argued. That LB and Talon could use some tweaking around to find ways for them to be relevant again without their silences, also true.

7ha7guy7776 votes

they seem to have no problem keeping silences as long as they aren't point and click (because the silence itself has no counterplay if you can't avoid it). garen, fiddlesticks, soraka, and malzahar still have theirs. garen's is technically point and click but requires him to get with auto attack range. fiddles' is point and click and technically AoE but i'm sure they have their reasons (can't burst as fast as an assassin?) for not getting rid of it (yet?) EDIT: forgot about blitzcrank and cho'gath's silences.

Saianna1 votes

Fiddles silence just has been nerfed :P

Direwolfiez1 votes

You forgot about Cho'Gath and Blitz :P They aren't point-and-click, though, so you're still right.

Xtremey1 votes

they seem to have no problem keeping silences as long as they aren't point and click (because the silence itself has no counterplay if you can't avoid it). garen, fiddlesticks, soraka, and malzahar still have theirs. garen's is technically point and click but requires him to get with auto attack range. fiddles' is point and click and technically AoE but i'm sure they have their reasons (can't burst as fast as an assassin?) for not getting rid of it (yet?)

by their logic with leblanc and talon, malz's silence should be removed, too. Maybe they think that since you just get killed by 5 dots that spans over 2 seconds it isnt as toxic as the "i look at you and you die" burst of leblanc and talon.

Wheatloaf3 votes

Malzahar's silence is a good design because it's a relatively difficult-to-land skillshot, and it outranges the rest of his kit, making it difficult/risky for him to capitalize on a max-range hit (he'll usually have to flash, as his Q range is 900, and his E range is 650). Just remember that Malzahar's biggest weakness is a coordinated team.

InvalidGuest5 votes

Malz doesn't have any point and click silences...

If you are referring to his ult there are plenty of drawbacks and risks to using it (Being rooted and vulnerable to anyone jumping on you and killing you).

If you screw up your positioning and ult someone in a bad spot and three tanks jump on you it is very hard to get them off of you and therefore extremely punishing.

SouL1ess2 votes

No, silence wasn't even an integral part of Talon's kit, it's just that his numbers are weaker than other assassins due to the silence.

However, Riot decided to give Talon something completely irrelevant to Talon's gameplay as compensation for removing a strong mechanic, which is why people say RIP Talon.

I played Talon since S2 and I would be fine with silence removal. I just don't think what Riot decided to give back was worth spending my time reading over. Riot could have given no compensation and it wouldn't even matter.

JustMyBassCannon5 votes

No, silence wasn't even an integral part of Talon's kit, it's just that his numbers are weaker than other assassins due to the silence.

I've done the math, and Talon's damage pretty closely matches Zed's damage in an ideal rotation--that is, one where Zed hits his R target with a triple-shuriken that doesn't have any targets before them, as well as E and two or three basic attacks thrown in for good measure. This math done when Talon has 250 bonus AD and Zed has around 310 due to his W passive.

And the silence may not have necessarily been the most important part of his kit, but it was his main defensive mechanic other than his ultimate's stealth. Being able to go in and avoid retaliation, complete your rotation and go invisible before the silence ended was pretty important.

As it stands, Talon lacks any sort of defensive or sustain mechanics other than his ulti stealth. Which costs a lot of mana (on a champ notorious for mana constraint) and has a pretty long cooldown for the one and only defense tool.

Talon's kit was designed around that Silence being his regular defense tool, and now it needs some reconsideration.

SouL1ess3 votes

My point was that Talon's Silence didn't make or break him. He functions well without the silence, but he should be given something more useful when the silence is removed.

Also, I don't think you did the math correctly.

Talon with E+AA+Q+RR+W deals 1275.9 base damage + 6.75*Bonus AD, underestimated since I did not include bleed damage in Cutthroat damage amp, since the bleed damage will never benefit fully from Cutthroat.

Zed with R+Single-Q+E+AA+AA deals 1074.5 base damage + 6.7*Bonus AD. If Zed hit with a double shuriken instead of single, he would have more damage than Talon. Each AA he lands during his ult furthers the gap between his and Talon's damage.

Admittedly, Talon's damage is not significantly worse than Zed. It's just about how many AAs can Zed pull off during ult. Zed has a higher damage potential, but both achieves around the same damage with minimal burst output.

So Talon's damage with a minimal combo is on par with Zed's minimal combo - landing 2 AAs as Zed shouldn't be hard with shadows. However, it's more difficult to reach the same killing potential as Talon than Zed, when comparing how hard each works towards game progression - Zed has an easier laning phase than Talon.

crippler382 votes

My point was that Talon's Silence didn't make or break him. He functions well without the silence, but he should be given something more useful when the silence is removed.

make it interrupt channels dangit so that that upstart Katarina can't win all the dang time (misses when talon could kill kat) besides it fits his theme doesn't it? cutthroat shocks them into not finishing their channel because suddenly he is there.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Eh, I could have done my math wrong. Has happened before.

We're still on the same page; Talon simply needs something in its place. Or a kit less designed around the "jump-rotate-walk away from the explosion wearing inexplicable sunglasses" playstyle.

Feathermane2 votes

Removing silence is an excuse. As if other forms of cc are easier to counterplay. I would have no problem with Kassadin (old Kassadin) having silence if he wasn't a damned tank with tons of damage. THAT's the problem, the silence is fine. What, I was going to use Flash to get away from Riftwalk? Typical Riot spin getting ingrained in everyone's minds.

RoyaiChaos1 votes

Even if he was super squishy it wouldn't matter if you couldn't damage him. (Mages rely on spells last time I checked, not aas)

Feathermane1 votes

Yeah, the problem was, he could tank your whole team. Meanwhile, he could only silence one person. And if laning was the problem, why did he get the magic shield that acts in the same way as the silence? So you could feel good about casting spells while not doing any actual damage?

And what about Talon? How has losing silence affected him? He's the exact same. It's an excuse, silence was never the issue. It might 'feel' worse getting silenced, but 95 times out of a hundred, you were dead anyway.

Dar Raksada1 votes

Yeah, the problem was, he could tank your whole team. Meanwhile, he could only silence one person. And if laning was the problem, why did he get the magic shield that acts in the same way as the silence? So you could feel good about casting spells while not doing any actual damage?

And what about Talon? How has losing silence affected him? He's the exact same. It's an excuse, silence was never the issue. It might 'feel' worse getting silenced, but 95 times out of a hundred, you were dead anyway.

Now you can cc him to stop him from riftwalking for a few seconds/denying him buffed attacks (depending on your range he can't riftwalk into aa range if you play it right) and then retaliate if/when the shield fades/have your jungler kick his ass.

Junkο1 votes

The problem with Kass is that his ultimate giving him a ton of mobility was an issue. Riot reduced it by 1-3 sec cd based on rank...

They also gave him a magic damage shield, and a stronger Poppy passive for magic damage that made him even more annoying to play against as an AP mid than before.

Chessburger1 votes

Even if he was super squishy it wouldn't matter if you couldn't damage him. (Mages rely on spells last time I checked, not aas)

Silence was made to counter casters specifically (compared to stun which is a huge cc in comparison). The counter play is that you can freely move and auto-attack so it's a heck of a lot less efficient vs AA based champions. People forget that.

Leti the Yeti1 votes

silence just wrecks mid laner where its all bout all-in the other guy faster than he can to you and cuz most mid laners have weak AA

MattAkhavan1 votes

Silences is probably the single best spell you can have. It provides a ton of utility and not only provides counter-play to everything it has little to no counter-play across staying out of it's range. This is mainly why riot is very wary with which champions have silences. Additional to taking silences away from high dps champions they are taking it away from champions that can spam it, Kassadin. Because silence has such amazing utility, they need to apply some huge costs for using such as high mana cost, high cooldowns, or very slow activation rate. Silence is best ability to have in almost all situations.

Direwolfiez1 votes

Hell to the no. High-damage champs are fine without silences. LBs didn't even have to play safe in lane, they just had to land the silence before they could 100-0 you, and there was nothing you could do about it besides stay away from them. The only champs that should have silences are the ones that can't burst you down in the period that you're silenced. There needs to be a tradeoff, or there isn't really a reason to play any other champ in the game.

Admittedly, Talon could use some love, but I don't ever want to see as many LBs as I saw in Season 4 again, that was a nightmare to play against. If you didn't have smartcasting on and the reflexes of Spiderman on crack, she would get away almost every time.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Thank you! Somebody gets it! [raucous applause]

Seriously, I'm glad another person understands why Talon, Leblanc and Kassadin have lost their silences. High burst+unpreventable CC makes assassins too good at their job.

eyes wide shut1 votes

fiddlesticks.

Orangesilk1 votes

I agree, nerf Cho

not a starburst1 votes

Cho needs nerfs like a drowning man needs water. He has no mobility, ranged tops hurt him, and he has only skillshots for abilities and a point-blank nuke. He's pretty balanced, and the new ult changes, while a slight buff, make his gameplay smoother and more interactive: less oppressive if he's just killed you, but ulting a minion just for stacks isn't quite as painful anymore. What kills him in games is the low mobility: he pushes insanely well, but dooms himself in the process, as he just can't get away very easily. Gank him and you can force his flash easily if you catch him out.

junglerboy161 votes

The key distinction here is "High damage" vs "high burst". A silence on a burst champion *isn't *toxic, unless it is a targeted skill that allows for a full combo with zero retaliation (sorry Kass, Leblanc, and Talon). Malzahar is the champ I refer to when looking at a HEALTHY silence. Key factors in its healthiness are that it is a skill shot—you aren't guaranteed to hit once you click the target location, unlike said toxic silences. It is also used to setup an otherwise impossible combo (It is necessary to set up his full burst rotation, the others are just little add-ons that make them immune to retaliation). Lastly, all the rest of malzahar's damage is slow burst. by this, I mean that it is a combination of DoT and voidling damage, but importantly, unless the enemy was caught out COMPLETELY alone (they should be an easy kill at that point), then most of their allies should be able to quickly counter Malzahar through CC before the full damage is dealt. The other three mage/assassins who had silences taken would finish a combo in the blink of an eye, thusly eliminating any chance for allies to aid each other, compounded by the silence they had. If he is interrupted quickly, most of Malzahar's targets will be able to escape at roughly half hp. Bruisers, supports, and tanks having Silences as a CC on the other hand is totally healthy, because none of these types are able to burst an enemy champion 100-0 before their target's allies at least have the occasion to intervene, just like with malzahar.

Chessburger1 votes

They could've made it so leblanc has to combo Q or mimicked Q into E to get the silence so it wouldn't be unavoidable. But they used a direct cop out and trashed the champion. She didn't even get a channel interrupt like kass.

junglerboy161 votes

Oh, I agree that the way that Riot dealt with the silences wasn't optimal. I was simply explaining my opinion why the silences were actually toxic. Making it conditional or giving her some other compensation would probably have been better than how they did it, but it had to change somehow.

Junkο1 votes

The problem is Talon, LB and Kassadin on top of high damage and mobility(excluding Talon) had point and click silences. Kass and LB could also easily get out after killing somebody and usually didn't need the silence anyway so nerf justified. Problem with Talon is that once he goes all in, if he doesn't kill he dies...

lojician1 votes

Gapclose, silence and burst is toxic but not any more toxic than ranged dps with numerous escapes. Everything in this game is broken because riot refuses to give their favorite champions meaningful weaknesses.

Zioken1 votes

So should stuns and knock-ups also be removed from high damage champions, considering they offer even less counter-play than a silence? It all depends on how it operates with their kit. Leblanc's silence came with burst and blinks, she could deal out damage without any repercussion at all. Talon was not that way, his silence beside being much shorter duration wise couldn't be used this way unless he was already snowballing, then it became oppressive but only then.

I'd like to add Talon's E should be able to cut channels. It sucks to fight a Katarina or Fiddlesticks and lack any CC to fight against enemies with, and his only defensive option is busting his tiny move-speed stealth ultimate.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

Silence is bad on bursty, mobile assassins. For the sole reason that if they see you away from the rest of their team, they WILL catch you and then they WILL kill you and you cannot get away from it due to the silence.

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