Yasuo's huge ban wave worries me about the future of balancing...

RainbowIcee·Jun 16, 2017·19 votes·1,532 views

Unfortunately all over the place people have been complaining about yasuo for a very long time and it has been ignored because pro's don't play him. At last this huge ban wave against him has caused riot to pay attention to him but also sends a message. Is this what we have to do now to get a champion to be balanced? Perma ban them? Make it so people just can't play the champion? This is wrong... yet it works. I hope there's better ways in the future.

51 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarJun 16, 201717 votes

Hmm. That's an interesting perspective, because I had the opposite reaction.

I realized that 10 bans gives the balance team good incentive to look at champs that are frustrating to play against. I share the opinion with many that Yasuo is NOT overpowered. I do, though, admit that he isn't fun for the opponent at all.

If that's what has to happen to make it a priority... oh well. Now we have 10 bans, so any champion in that boat will move up the priority list. To me, that sounds like "problem solved."

There's two sides to every coin, I suppose.

JustJaysonJun 16, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Hmm. That's an interesting perspective, because I had the opposite reaction.

I realized that 10 bans gives the balance team good incentive to look at champs that are frustrating to play against. I share the opinion with many that Yasuo is NOT overpowered. I do, though, admit that he isn't fun for the opponent at all.

If that's what has to happen to make it a priority... oh well. Now we have 10 bans, so any champion in that boat will move up the priority list. To me, that sounds like "problem solved."

There's two sides to every coin, I suppose.

I share your opinion, he is not overpowered. He is just an odd champ to play against. Riven is similarly and there are way too many Yasuo mains out there and I get tired of the one-tricks. Especially since he can snowball very easily off a first blood and has a ton of kill potential the first few levels.

King of MongooseJun 16, 20176 votes

riven is actually busted though

LankPantsJun 17, 20172 votes

I realized that 10 bans gives the balance team good incentive to look at champs that are frustrating to play against. I share the opinion with many that Yasuo is NOT overpowered. I do, though, admit that he isn't fun for the opponent at all.

So he's Yorick? You realise that this statement 100% describes old Yorick? Maybe that's an indication of how Yasuo should be treated, he's an example of the worst design in League and like Yorick before him he should be gutted and left purposefully weak until he can be reworked.

WingsofGulgazorJun 17, 20171 votes

yasuo is no where near old Yorick to play against. Even when Yorick was gutted and weak he still lane bullied people and made the lane no interaction the entire game. They just made it were he couldn't teamfight because if he's strong enough to teamfight despite doing nothing in lane for 30 minutes then there's something wrong.

If anything Yasuo is like Old Draven where he is somewhat high risk high reward. But even yasuo isn't as close to feast or famine as Draven was and probably still is.

DreadlocksJun 17, 20173 votes

i have fun vs yas =] Rengar Malphite Kayle Irelia Pantheon Camille Riven Teemo Darius Jax Renekton Malzahar Anivia Veigar Cassiopeia Xerath Fizz Akali Viktor TwistedFate Annie Vladimir Lux Galio Talon Katarina Syndra Kassadin Ahri

Spicy RiceJun 17, 20171 votes

Where is viktor in that list?

FrightningJun 18, 20174 votes

Right between Akali and Twisted Fate.

ReZisT LustJun 19, 20171 votes

Udyr

TrashballJun 16, 20177 votes

I disagree. Everyone should be able to ban what they hate. When enough people hate something, it becomes an issue, and the developers are forced to fix the champion lest the copious money poured into the champion's design go to waste.

10 bans provides a reasonable bandaid when the community is waiting for Riot to fix something, and simultaneously gives a good metric to measure hatred of given champions. Additionally, if they fix the champion, they'll achieve lower ban rates, and the game will be more enjoyable for the previously cancerous champion's mains, and for the players who have to play against (or with) them.

Big LincolnJun 16, 20176 votes

if you stamp your feet hard enough riot will appease you

Trash MammaIJun 16, 20175 votes

It's because there's nothing wrong with Yasuo, people just cry for the sake of crying.

Marksman cried tanks were too tanky when they never built a single anti-tank item Mages cried MR was too stronk because they couldn't 1 shot Assassins complained about not being able to 1 shot tanks despite 1 shoting everything else People cried about stealth when they never bought a single ward or sweeper

Yasuo's issue is that he's not fun to play against. That being said it's not only limited to him. Being resource less in general is a stupid mechanic that goes abused far too often. Garen, Katarina, Tryndamere, Yasuo, Riven, etc. etc. none of them are fun to play against because they all have no resource and for some reason Riot thought sticking on both mobility and shields/bonus stats/damage reduction etc. etc. onto those type of champs was a good idea.

There's absolutely nothing they can do to Yasuo without making him either completely useless or completely overbearing other than a full scale rework. People just need to stop crying and learn to play

RainfallJun 16, 20177 votes

if you add a shotgun in a game of pistol's making it a 6mm shotgun does not make it a pistol. Yasuo's kit is blatantly overloaded, his low value numbers keep his winrate low but that does not make him the same as the rest of the champions in league of legends.

Trash MammaIJun 16, 20173 votes

Which brings us back to the fact he's unfun to play against. His damage is pretty much terrible until late game where he's suppose to be a hypercarry. He's not tanky, at all, even with his shield. All he has going for him is low cd and massive mobility. Both of which are irritating things to play against.

Not being fun to play against =/= Broken/Overpowered etc. By that logic Ziggs, Heimer,Blitz etc. would all be considered broken. His kit may be overloaded but it's the only thing keeping him in the game. Like I said there's nothing they can do other than giving him a full scale rework.

The only champ to date that's ever been horrendously overpowered was pre-rework Poppy. Where you did shitty early game then 1v5'd in a seconds easily

reaperteaserJun 17, 20171 votes

dont forget 100% dodge jax, literally danced in enemy fountain and spawn killed

Spicy RiceJun 17, 20171 votes

The good ol days

GayFluffyUnicornJun 17, 20171 votes

Ehhh release xin, leblanc ring a bell? Release diana ? Kassa? A bit more than "only one champ"

MohawkBirdJun 18, 20171 votes

[deleted]

Trash MammaIJun 18, 20171 votes

Ziggs is nowhere near fun to play against, last I checked when he was looked at it was a buff

Blitzcrank is pure aids to play against and makes the player on the receiving end feel cheated when they lose to a single hook after multiple fails

Tryndamere feels unfair where no matter how badly you beat him his ult keeps him from ever truly falling off allowing him to consistently split push all game

Heimerdinger is one of the most irritating champions in the game for melee champs, yet he was buffed recently

That's just to name a few. Unfun =/= Overpowered. Also for the record forums/reddit are the last place i'd look for any type of statistics. It's nothing but bronze 5 players that complain about the most ridiculous things.

Darkdemon653Jun 16, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Unfortunately all over the place people have been complaining about yasuo for a very long time and it has been ignored because pro's don't play him. At last this huge ban wave against him has caused riot to pay attention to him but also sends a message. Is this what we have to do now to get a champion to be balanced? Perma ban them? Make it so people just can't play the champion? This is wrong... yet it works. I hope there's better ways in the future.

Except Yasuo isn't OP

DunkinNoobsJun 16, 20174 votes

This nonsense is exactly why I was against 10 bans from the start because it basically allows the playerbase to hold a champion hostage and demand that Riot either gut or rework them by permabanning that champ until they do. I play in high enough elo that most people aren't scared shitless of Yasuo but anyone gold and below is pretty much out of luck.

I'm just curious who the community will target next once they succeed in ruining Yasuo. Leblanc? Fizz? Zed? Zac?

LauchmelderJun 17, 20171 votes

10 bans was the best thing we could get.

If a champion isn't OP and still banned that often then something's inherently wrong with it. Where Riot refused to (or simply didn't think it was important enough to) listen before the new bans the players can now force them to take a look at it.

DunkinNoobsJun 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gk4G2izc,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-06-17T17:52:29.101+0000)

If a champion isn't OP and still banned that often then something's inherently wrong with it. Where Riot refused to (or simply didn't think it was important enough to) listen before the new bans the players can now force them to take a look at it.

Your logic only works if you think the community as a whole (basically low elo since most players are low elo) will treat champions reliably and fairly.

Lol.

LauchmelderJun 17, 20171 votes

Well champions will be treated fairly if they have a kit that feels fair to play against and aren't OP. In that case there's no difference between high elo and low elo.

DunkinNoobsJun 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gk4G2izc,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-17T21:20:39.231+0000)

Well champions will be treated fairly if they have a kit that feels fair to play against and aren't OP. In that case there's no difference between high elo and low elo.

If that were the case, Pantheon would be permabanned since he's both extremely unfair to play against and OP. The fact that he isn't proves that the community is very selective and misguided about what they actually complain about.

CavemanteroJun 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Your logic only works if you think the community as a whole (basically low elo since most players are low elo) will treat champions reliably and fairly.

Lol.

Low elo are typically paying players and they will ban who they will ban. No one is crying for garen bans here who is a typical low elo stomper used by smurfs. So your argument has no bearing on the reality of the situation...it only intends to deflect it.

DunkinNoobsJun 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Low elo are typically paying players and they will ban who they will ban. No one is crying for garen bans here who is a typical low elo stomper used by smurfs. So your argument has no bearing on the reality of the situation...it only intends to deflect it.

The average Plat+ player spends multiple times what the average silver player spends on the game since they're the most invested in it. Money spent actually does correlate pretty consistently with elo, interestingly enough.

CavemanteroJun 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The average Plat+ player spends multiple times what the average silver player spends on the game since they're the most invested in it. Money spent actually does correlate pretty consistently with elo, interestingly enough.

So? That has nothing to do with it. You mentioned low elo players as a means to trash the very obvious idea that it is they who are banning and implying that they have no logical reason to ban Yasuo. So what if they don't spend thousands on the game?...there are thousands more of them then your 'platinum+ gods'. They get to ban in bronze and silver and gold.

If you want to change that make your own whine thread about limiting draft to platinum and up.

DunkinNoobsJun 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So? That has nothing to do with it. You mentioned low elo players as a means to trash the very obvious idea that it is they who are banning and implying that they have no logical reason to ban Yasuo. So what if they don't spend thousands on the game?...there are thousands more of them then your 'platinum+ gods'. They get to ban in bronze and silver and gold.

They can ban whatever they want. But the idea that they can hold Yasuo hostage and force Riot to rework him for everyone is disgusting. Yasuo is purely a low elo problem and the idea that we should rework him for everyone because a bunch of circlejerking babies can't handle him is disgusting. No one who actually plays Yasuo even a little bit is afraid to face him, which really points the needle away from the champ and towards the players, don't you think.

Spicy RiceJun 17, 20171 votes

I love how this implies people look at champions objectively rather than using confirmation bias and a healthy dose of salt when banning

ShahamutJun 17, 20171 votes

I wouldn't worry too much man. In there "ask riot" post, they basically said that they don't want to change his play style, and interacrion/clarity for his opponents and buff him. Yep. Buff him. Because he doesn't perform well at all in the upper echelon of play. I'm going to do a full post on this later breaking down the article.

Sir FuzziJun 16, 20173 votes

Yasuo is balanced. He's tough to play, tough to play against. He's got lots of resources. He's a prettyboy samurai, high profile VA, good lines, some weeaboo Nippon thrown in there. He's got a huge katana, he has poke, he gets great damage early off far less gold than others. He can contribute to teamfights while behind and end them abruptly while ahead. He enjoys a solid solo experience but absolutely gobbles up synergy.

Now assume three people played a champion, do you think you'd get a lot? Probably not. But if hundreds of thousands play him and want to play him and play against him? All of a sudden you have this funny number bias. Just because he's popular, things seem so skewed. But realistically, he's not really that different than others. And if it wasn't him? Caitlyn Ahri Vayne LeeSin Just a smattering of champions who have historically been as popular as Yasuo for hate-on. If he weren't popular enough to garner this kind of attention ( Urgot ) for any reason, he wouldn't get picks; he wouldn't get bans; then, nobody would talk about his balance, whether it existed or not.

Ahri's been the exact same champion design for a long time. As the meta evolves, she seems to get a change one season, which reverts, then another, and a revert. They lastly added her Q MS. Anyway, people have always hated Ahri. Too strong, too fast, too bursty, too much CC for an assassin, you know the drill. Fact is, her design's been the exact same except maybe level order and rotation, since she stepped off the plate to my knowledge. And people have always hated her. That's because they see her a ton; Galio got reworked and now people see him, and now people hate him. Nobody barely talked about Galio before; not as destroyed as Morde was, and not as clunky as old Sion was, he was pretty much a 'yeah, he could use a touch' almost any time he came up. They modernized his kit to have mobility and hey-- look. People hate him now.

People don't like a lot of things. But if Riot starts balancing, deciding things, based on what does and doesn't hurt some peoples' feelings in lane, their champ design is going to go to absolute garbage. Nobody has to like Yasuo. They don't even have to admit that he's balanced. He just has to be; and as long as he's balanced, he can get perma-banned from 99 games of a 100 and it's still just fine. The essence of balance is, 'can it be beaten in a standard scenario?' Not, 'do people like this?'

If it were something like 15 or 20% of the cast that suffered like Yasuo? Sure. But it's a handful of champions, and most actual balance discussions end in people screaming and swearing about how much they don't like facing opponents who defeat them, because they won't DODGE THE GOD DAMN LUX Q IT'S LITERALLY A STRAIGHT LINE!

Kuronii LumiiraJun 16, 20173 votes

You remember when Kassadin was 100% pick/ban in Season 3 and 4? Mmh, delicious times. He was nerfed into the ground in Season 5, so we can at least hope for the same with Yas.

But yeah, this has been a trend since the beginning. No worries, man.

ShahamutJun 17, 20171 votes

The difference here though is that Yasuo, unlike Kassadin at that time, is not overpowered or dominating the meta. His ban rate is almost exclusively motivated by a memory/confirmation bias of his "annoying kit" and "feeding on my team" "carries on enemy team".

Not to say that I don't think Yasuo lacks a bit of agency, mainly with Windwall size/duration in my opinion, but he honestly, from a game play standpoint, isn't worth the ban, strictly based on the number of champions you can pick to easily shut him down.

I am glad they are going to look at Yasuo. I hope they will achieve making him feel better to play against, and also succeed in making him an ACTUALLY strong champion, because I love his champion concept.

DunkinNoobsJun 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The difference here though is that Yasuo, unlike Kassadin at that time, is not overpowered or dominating the meta. His ban rate is almost exclusively motivated by a memory/confirmation bias of his "annoying kit" and "feeding on my team" "carries on enemy team".

These Kassadin/Yasuo equivocation posts irritate me to no end. Kass had a 99% banrate at all elos and was 100% pick or ban in pro play during that entire time. Yasuo has been picked or banned 1 single time in pro play so far this season, and his banrate also drops off a cliff as elo rises. Yasuo isn't Kassadin. Yasuo is Feral Flare Master Yi circa Season 4.

CavemanteroJun 17, 20172 votes

This isn't about Yasuo being op, its about his kit being overloaded. The reason why people hate him isn't simply because people hate playing against him, its because people hate playing with him...considering all the bads who pick him because his kit is publicly known to be overloaded.

He feeds the other team if you're a bad, gets fed and snowballs and makes the game decidedly easy if he's not bad. He is simply way too safe to play aggressive with because of the overloaded kit which makes him attractive to bad players who don't know how to retreat and thus end up feeding.

The snowballing is the other issue and that's opponents laning against bad players who will inevitably will be on your team....but if there is more risk added to his kit as in increased cooldown for e and shield nerf I guarantee you he wont be so hated. The whole 'lrn to play against him' is the weakest argument you can make because it simply ignores the problem everyone knows is there.

RookPusherJun 16, 20171 votes

I'm not quite sure I see what the downside is to this system.

Spicy RiceJun 17, 20171 votes

Fine, let's use an example like vel'koz, possibly the most balanced champ in league.

People could conceivably just cry and ban him till he got nerfed.

This system basically ignores game balance entirely in favor of placating the mob

RookPusherJun 18, 20171 votes

Except in doing that, you miss out on a ban you really wanted to have. This is how equilibrium works. The demand sets the field. How many times do you ban Vel'Koz before you ban who the real problem is?

I personally ban Kled. That's my personal preference. But there's not a large outcry for Kled nerfs because he's not AS oppressive as Yas/Darius.

Spicy RiceJun 18, 20171 votes

I guess I should've clarified. Perception of champion strength is what drives bans, for the most part. The champs people think are strong, are what they tend to ban, even if they aren't actually op.

To this end, it's a bad idea to use a high percentage of bans as a reason for making balance changes, as it doesn't accurately show whether a champion is strong or over bearing, just that people think they are.

sobi999Jun 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gk4G2izc,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-18T22:18:31.294+0000)

I guess I should've clarified. Perception of champion strength is what drives bans, for the most part. The champs people think are strong, are what they tend to ban, even if they aren't actually op.

To this end, it's a bad idea to use a high percentage of bans as a reason for making balance changes, as it doesn't accurately show whether a champion is strong or over bearing, just that people think they are.

I think you're making the matter too confusing. This champion is strong = Opinion bans = Opinion

Peoples perception of strong or weak is what makes a champ strong or weak. If you want to take all champs used in LCS as strong then that's your opinion. I think in pro-plays there are many factors that come in play such as the compatibility of different champs together and the counters. Yasuo without a doubt is strong but it isn't the sort of champ that'll work in pro-plays as he is a squishy top laner who usually likes to dash around in team fights which sadly doesn't work in pro-plays. If you actually looked at yasuo's DPS you'll know that he really is in need of some fixing.

Tobias BracknerJun 16, 20171 votes

I wish people would learn how to play against a champ rather than QQ and ban them.

PePsiLemoNNJun 17, 20171 votes

They said that he was on their list anyway but the banrate moved him up the list

ThilmerJun 17, 20171 votes

It would be better if Riot actually did an effort to detect unbalanced champions and try to solve the balance problems, but Riot's policy about Yasuo has been "if no one plays him in the Corean high leagues he is not a problem".

If we have to permaban a champion so Riot sees there is a problem, I'm fine with it. Yasuo has had an overloaded and toxic skillset for years and Riot mostly ignored the problem; that tells you something about Riot's way of balancing.

For me, the problem is that Yasuo shouldn't even got out of the PBE without great changes. The first time I saw Yasuo's champion spotligth, I thougth: "This must be fan-made, he has a trillion things, what the hell is that double crit passive? And he can spam a dash? And his windwall stops everything? Seriously?"

WingsofGulgazorJun 17, 20171 votes

yaso wasn't even that good to begin with. the crit changes made him a little strong but he wasn't op. But people don't want to learn how to play against him and just ban him so they decided to work on nerfing him before other things.

BaunjoJun 17, 20171 votes

After having yasuo free for 2 weeks, I played him somewhat but honestly loved playing against those who didn't own him. As with any champion, if you put in the practice to play a champion to an excellent standard, you will generally play matchups very well. I played yasuo more than I needed to when I bought him almost a year ago in nearly every ranked game. Against opponents who were truly better at their champions, I never won a single matchups. In games where the other players maybe have excellent technical skill and champion skills, but little teamwork, coordination and map control, I could just farm and push down towers, maybe inserting myself into very one sided teamfights. It's really a matter of how well you play him.

A Basic IslandJun 18, 20171 votes

Yasuo is balanced

sobi999Jun 18, 20171 votes

Name me one champ that counters Yasuo? Then name me the champs that yasuo counters. You'll automatically see why he is banned so much. He is a late game hyper carry who doesn't have counters and has probably the best farming potential in the game. He doesn't work in pro plays where most fights are group fights as he would be CC'd to death.