I am unsure as to why one of the most balanced, and unique champions 
in the game is on the list. I don't think anyone complains about Vel'Koz. He didn't have a rework that stripped his whole identity down to the very weapon used in combat. But you know who did? 
**"Your spirit is something no one can take from you. Use it wisely." **― Karma
IxtaliKing7 votesI have a feeling when the mage update drops, Karma will be pushed out of mid too. Then you got her subclass which is full of champs who are perfectly "distinct", "cohesive" and "healthy" (Ori and Morg), so won't be looked at. It looks like they would rather not address Karma at all tbh.
The worse thing about the way Karma has been handled is that although her player base is small, it's also very diverse. I see people talking about playing "tank support" Karma top and things like that, and they really like it. If Karma was to be made more... how can I put this.. herself? Again, a portion of her player base would be disappointed.
Personally I feel Karma being true to her theme should trump everything, and even though I only knew the reworked Karma and really liked her pre 5.10, I think the opinions of the original Karma mains should be shown the most consideration; as they know the character. For someone who knew what Karma was, or who she was even, looking at her now is like looking at a placeholder for a deleted champ.
Reworking other older champs is all well and good, but correcting mistakes should be just as important. Perhaps they should build a team for that specific purpose, that works with community to correct or at least salvage dud reworks.
Casri6 votesThe issue with support Karma is that she has to work harder and put herself at risk to be even just on par with traditional supports. There is nothing truly unique in her kit, so she doesn't even fit a niche, unlike Janna R, Braum E, Thresh everything, Zyra&Brand burst/cc death combos. Often people will say 'But Karma has an amazing early game with her R'. No. Every support has a decent early game, or they would not be viable in bot lane, full stop.
Q, is her best ability, but it requires either very precise aiming, or pushing the wave to harass minion-hugging adcs. RQ is fine, but the second damage portion is rarely landed.
W requires putting herself in poke/engage range for 2 seconds in return for pitiful damage and a 1 second root, and that's assuming the tether isn't broken. RW is only useful to assist ganks, and even then RQ is more reliable.
E is kinda nice but unlike Lulu/Janna/Ori shields, it doesn't provide any combat stats and using it repeatedly to shield harass will OOM you very quickly. RE is probably the only selling point of Karma support, a mini Talisman/Locket active, basically.
Mantra is okay, but you won't be able to use it very often unless you're getting in constant harass with Q/Autos, which puts you in danger/ooms you. Once the enemy bot-lane hits 6, this is infinitely less valuable.
And she has to build AP or she's completely worthless, but she wasn't even given utility scaling. Don't even get me started on Karma mid, lol.
SilverSquid1 votesRE is probably the only selling point of Karma support, a mini Talisman/Locket active, basically.
Which is a problem in itself; Karma's only selling point is something that any support can BUY. So they can offer the same utility as karma... on TOP of a real ultimate :C
IxtaliKing1 votesMaybe this will make people see, it was the damage that sold this ability...
Abyssphere1 votesThe issue with support Karma is that she has to work harder and put herself at risk to be even just on par with traditional supports. There is nothing truly unique in her kit, so she doesn't even fit a niche, unlike Janna R, Braum E, Thresh everything, Zyra&Brand burst/cc death combos. Often people will say 'But Karma has an amazing early game with her R'. No. Every support has a decent early game, or they would not be viable in bot lane, full stop.
Q, is her best ability, but it requires either very precise aiming, or pushing the wave to harass minion-hugging adcs. RQ is fine, but the second damage portion is rarely landed.
W requires putting herself in poke/engage range for 2 seconds in return for pitiful damage and a 1 second root, and that's assuming the tether isn't broken. RW is only useful to assist ganks, and even then RQ is more reliable.
E is kinda nice but unlike Lulu/Janna/Ori shields, it doesn't provide any combat stats and using it repeatedly to shield harass will OOM you very quickly. RE is probably the only selling point of Karma support, a mini Talisman/Locket active, basically.
Mantra is okay, but you won't be able to use it very often unless you're getting in constant harass with Q/Autos, which puts you in danger/ooms you. Once the enemy bot-lane hits 6, this is infinitely less valuable.
And she has to build AP or she's completely worthless, but she wasn't even given utility scaling. Don't get me started of Karma mid, lol.
idk/?
Kind regards from us
(one on left is old Karma, one on right is new)
Casri2 votes{quoted} idk/?
Kind regards from us
... Your responses throughout the entirety of this thread make 0 sense, this one included, what does that even mean?
I find my beautiful Karma very fun. Her Q slows enemies.
Well I find Zyra very fun. Her E roots enemies.
See, my two statements don't logically follow any more than yours do. Using your argument, we could say that any champion who has a slowing ability is objectively fun. Which isn't the case, lol.
Lastly, you don't even play Karma (no ranked games on her, no games on her in your match history), so calling yourself a Karma main is completely false. And your signature makes no sense either.
IxtaliKing2 votesStarting to get the feeling there's some kind of secret anti-Karma troll movement out there...
Rico Nasty4 votesI'm a Karma main, no clue why y'all complain about her all the time. She has never been in a better spot than now, where she can effectively play Mid, Top, Support, Botlane APC, and Jungle. Her teamfights are stellar in the AD meta due to her sustain, and it's super super hard to push her out of lane due to the flexibility of her laning phase. Honestly leave her be, I don't want her to be wrecked like all the other recent reworks.
SilverSquid7 votesHer supporting is bad. She is one of the supports that are supposed to build damage on to be useful, which isn't supportive at all. She doesn't have the utility to compete in botlane and not the damage to compete midlane (or with annie/brand/etc. botlane for that matter). Calling her jungle "effective" is stretching it. It's possible, but so viable that stonewall didn't even include her in his "all junglers" list, which included leona and zyra. Her top is fun for a change and even more viable than her supporting, but her waveclear is bad, her tower pusing non-existent, her dueling consists of running away and she doesn't have the CC, sustain or damage mitigation to compete with maokai. While being harder to play.
She might be balanced in terms of power, but there's really not much in her kit that could be a problem. And only being balanced at a normal level doesn't mean a champ has no problems.
I don't want her to be wrecked like all the other recent reworks.
And now imagine she had been wrecked. Twice. Wouldn't you complain too?
Abyssphere2 votes[{quoted}](name=karma or feed,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ggPNvtni,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-02-10T21:21:53.224+0000)
I'm a Karma main, no clue why y'all complain about her all the time. She has never been in a better spot than now, where she can effectively play Mid, Top, Support, Botlane APC, and Jungle. Her teamfights are stellar in the AD meta due to her sustain, and it's super super hard to push her out of lane due to the flexibility of her laning phase. Honestly leave her be, I don't want her to be wrecked like all the other recent reworks.
Thanks for your support, fellow Karma main.
Kind regards from us
(one on left is old Karma, one on right is new)
Kitty Clarissa3 votesI feel karma is ok Tbh, I mean she still is a lane bully who is hard to push out of lane due to substain and shields, Mid / top/ supp/ jungle she can do well if played right its just you build alot of pen on her since she does not scale too well with so much flat. 45% cdr karma has her mantra up 24/7 making her annoying and in team fights. karma is not really as immoible since she can peel champs off her and ttank the burst from mantra W + E away. mantra E is a free rightous glory / locket active for the team nearby making it so her utility is great. So either way full ap or AP utility karma is good. Aldoh i missed her shield damage and everything but its alright now since personally enjoy her.
SilverSquid4 votesWhy, whenever I check someone who tells me from experience, that Karma is fine, I find them to be in silver or bronze....
IxtaliKing3 votesThis is the issue Karma has to deal with, people who don't know and/or hardly play her chiming in saying she's fine with nothing to back it up other than being balanced. These are the same people who thought getting rid of shield bomb and swapping her damage for a root was a good idea, and these people don't even use Karma much less like her. Riot would rather listen to people who have little to no stake in a champ than people who know and love the champ, it's ridiculous.
Kitty Clarissa1 votesEh i didnt play her in older seasons since i was not into league back then, they pushed her out of mid lane mainly and tried to make her a "support" . I played against pre-work karma and i got rekt by it, She was really ment to be like mid/support flexable .. Riot has been trying to push her down to support only, like Zyra they put in recommended support stuff when they literally making new zyra players think "oh i have to build her like a support" Granted she is a control mage. like Im not the best at zyra but it cringes me that players build her pure support with rylias. I mean yes a locket / mikeals should be a part too but nobody reccomends banner of command on her..
a related case Zilean, his recommended kit involves standard AP mage stuff but most players before the LCS happened played him support or never played him. i was around s3 when i started, i quit then joined mid s4 getting back into the game. i didnt pick karma up until mid S5 i think to now.
IxtaliKing3 votesThis is the thing, old Karma was initially intended as a support but she was more effective in solo lanes so that's where people played. Riot liked that direction so with the rework their goal was to make her into a solo laner with support potential, that's why pre 5.10 her mantra was more damage oriented. They said Karma's thing was loading her utility with offensive potential, that was Karma. They have gone back on their original goals for Karma's rework and they shouldn't have, because the result is a champ which just isn't cohesive or distinct.
Kitty Clarissa1 votesThen again lets look at lulu, she is played everywhere no matter what role and riot stated that she was a "support" secondary "mage" yet played in solo lanes a ultiity mage. Like I miss old karma Tbh looking at her kit and played with it only 1 or 2 games with it. Lately riot been messing up on some champs .
IxtaliKing2 votesThe thing about Lulu is she actually has an identity, regardless of where she is played. Karma no longer has. There is no reason to pick Karma aside from just being comfortable with her kit.
Which i cant agrue with someone who played her in older times more then me, I just feel sometimes when i play her i build her more tanky anyway since pure AP can hurt too , i mainly like to be annoying with her with 45% cdr nowadays
TNHA Baritone2 votesNo...You don't understand. You didnt have to play her pre-rework to see she lacks identity. HER WHOLE KIT IS THAT FOOLISH GENERIC GREEN GARBAGE.
-__- i never cared for ranked much.. i just did it because why not
SilverSquid3 votesI am sorry, I usually try to shy away from ad-hominems, especially if someone sounds reasonable, like you do. Personally, I don't like ranked either and could probably be plat if I just got my lazy ass moving. But then again, ever since I have to play against plat/diamond players in normals, I find my Karma performance lacking. I used to be able to handle anyone everywhere just fine, but the higher I climbed....
I've had more success with jungle cho'gath after 3 games, than I did with Karma after 2 years of maining her. And I didn't even hit all my Qs. I can carry harder with a Katarina, that I literally played only 2 times against real people, after losing lane, than I can with Karma against any midlaner at my level or higher.
And I only realized how capped Karma's skillceiling is, after reaching plat niveau. So, whenever I see someone commenting on her in a lower ELO I just can't help but think of me back then. I am really trying hard not to sound pretentious or high and mighty, but her lack in power and depth just becomes apparant on higher levels. Which you can't know about. And you know what they say; you can carry with ANY champion in bronze/silver, as long as you main him/her....
Maybe you can understand and forgive my attack. It wasn't meant to discredit you, but to express my frustration.
manbearswine1 votesWell they kinda said vel'koz is receiving the least attention in the update. Anyway karma is already distinct enough,she probably could still use some work,but her current state just doesn't fit with the purpose of the immobile mage rework(as she is already different enough from most of the guys there).
TNHA Baritone1 votesYou've played Karma once in your last 30 + games. How could you say she's "distinct enough" when her ult has been scrapped into a generic spell-changer.
manbearswine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ggPNvtni,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2016-02-11T19:35:19.656+0000)
You've played Karma once in your last 30 + games.
I mostly play on west anyway.
How could you say she's "distinct enough" when her ult has been scrapped into a generic spell-changer.
Well first of all I wouldnt call "spell changers" generic,but anyway they way her kit works is significantly different from other immobile mages,due to the nature of her ult and passive and her lack of instant cc,she is good at prolonged fights(and prolonging them) while being rather bad at short ones,so she is good against teams which are heavy on tanks and bruisers which intend to soak a lot of damage and can't end a fight fast,whereas she's bad against fast wombo combo's(like ori+malph) or things like yi/talon which tend to decide a fight fast.
I also think riot sees her more of a support than a mid laner,even if that's not necessarily where she is best at right now.
IxtaliKing3 votesKarma's rework was focused on solo laning, not support. The reason Karma can be called generic is because nothing in her kit is original or unique, whereas not too long ago there was and they removed it. In regards to her ult differentiating her from other mages, Heimerdinger has the same ult, and his actually feels like an ult, Karma's doesn't. Also, when riot talk about a champ being distinct they mean does the champ have a reason to be picked over another in their class; and the answer for Karma is no. I main Karma, and when I pick her it is purely because I'm quite comfortable with her kit and she's a safe 1st pick for me.
manbearswine1 votesKarma's rework was focused on solo laning, not support.
It was aimed at both.
The reason Karma can be called generic is because nothing in her kit is original or unique,
She does have that,it's just not unique enough,she has scenarios where she's bad at,but she doesn't have scenarios where she particularly shines.
whereas not too long ago there was and they removed it.
God this is even worse than the whole dominion nonsense. Pretty much nobody played old karma.
In regards to her ult differentiating her from other mages, Heimerdinger has the same ult,
No,he doesn't,just because his ult buffs his abilities and her ult buffs her abilities does not make them the same at all,because they have different abilities,and their buffed version are buffed versions of different abilities.
It's like saying sona and malphite have the same ult because most of their power is tied to it,it's just nonsense.
and his actually feels like an ult, Karma's doesn't.
So first they had the same ult,but somehow his is completely different than hers? Her ult is available at lower levels and has a shorter cooldown(especially at higher levels),which is exactly why I said she is good for prolonged fights and skirmishes.
Also, when riot talk about a champ being distinct they mean does the champ have a reason to be picked over another in their class;
I don't know what to tell you about that,I mean heimer is very unique/distinct,does he have a reason to be picked over any other champion? Depends on how much respect you have for your opponents,basically you need to rely on them to not understand the how heimer works,which is a gamble which can definitely pay off,but is that a serious reason for a champion to be picked?
and the answer for Karma is no. I main Karma, and when I pick her it is purely because I'm quite comfortable with her kit and she's a safe 1st pick for me.
I really wouldn't call karma a safe pick,karma means champions like yi or talon,champions who need to be reacted to quickly will have much less room to be dealt with than other support/mid picks,she has some scenarios where she is good,but there are better picks,and she has plenty of bad scenarios,so I wouldn't call her safe.
IxtaliKing2 votesNot really sure how to do the whole border thing on my phone (Yes, I'm a noob), so I'll do it this way:
Yeah I could have phrased that better, my point is they were encouraging her to build more AP than your typical support. The gold for which would be easier earned in a solo lane, I'm guessing that why she's a Mage 1st Support 2nd after her rework.
What is it you feel is unique to Karma? I know it can't be RE because those effects can literally be bought, and fairly cheaply too.
I wasn't referring to old Karma, I was referring to the removal of her Shield bomb. That was actually unique and quite iconic.
The comparison between Karma's ult and Heimer's is not in any way similar to saying Sona and Malphite's are the same, don't scrape lol. I'm well aware of their differences, my point is their ults are similar and thus her ult doesn't make her unique. Them having different skills is besides the point.
I don't know too much Heimer or his problems, he doesn't interest me at all so I can't really answer this.
Fair enough you wouldn't call her safe for whatever I'm sure are the valid reasons you have, but I'm saying I would for the reason I stated. My reason for picking her when I do, is because I'm comfortable with her kit.
manbearswine1 votesNot really sure how to do the whole border thing on my phone (Yes, I'm a noob), so I'll do it this way:
- Yeah I could have phrased that better, my point is they were encouraging her to build more AP than your typical support. The gold for which would be easier earned in a solo lane, I'm guessing that why she's a Mage 1st Support 2nd after her rework.
I wouldn't say that,ironically even zyra and annie(who are pretty much the only real mages(I see morgana as more of tank,because that's how she plays) supports to work in competitive),worked best before they started getting more gold(annie got weaker,zyra got irrelevant).
- What is it you feel is unique to Karma? I know it can't be RE because those effects can literally be bought, and fairly cheaply too.
Her kiting. She keeps spamming shields,slows a root and even her ult if a fight doesn't end fast enough,all(aside from her root,which is on a standard cooldown) on a rather short cds.
The thing is you have guys like janna and lulu(mid,her laning as a support is lacking) who kite nearly as well(they are actually a bit weaker at it,at least as supports without ap) but can also provide much more in fast fights.
I think her biggest issue right now is that a 25% slow with all these speedboosts and swiftness boots just doesn't accomplish much.
Oh and she's also kind of a lane bully,but it's not worth much in bot lane right now(or ever? poke supports all went down the drain with the introduction of relic shield).
- I wasn't referring to old Karma, I was referring to the removal of her Shield bomb. That was actually unique and quite iconic.
Should've said rebalance then,not a rework. Well her e got buffed for it,I think the issue was RE was generally much stronger than all other alternatives in all out fights...maybe they had some problem with it? Idk,it's riot.
- The comparison between Karma's ult and Heimer's is not in any way similar to saying Sona and Malphite's are the same, don't scrape lol.
Not true,karma's ult to heimers is about the same as sona's is to malphites. It's just that they all have very little to do with each other.
I'm well aware of their differences, my point is their ults are similar and thus her ult doesn't make her unique.
ok a few things:
Them having different skills is besides the point.
but the whole point is that their ult buffs different skills,hence their ults are very different.
- I don't know too much Heimer or his problems, he doesn't interest me at all so I can't really answer this.
Are you sure that heimer doesn't interest you? or how shallow his strengths(he needs his opponents to play poorly to work) are? I'm not saying that necessarily is the case,but people very often confuse the two.
- Fair enough you wouldn't call her safe for whatever I'm sure are the valid reasons you have, but I'm saying I would for the reason I stated. My reason for picking her when I do, is because I'm comfortable with her kit.
Well that seems like something which is true,but only specifically for you,and isn't tied much to karma as a champion,as for most people she's not a safe pick.
IxtaliKing2 votesNot quite sure what you're getting at asking me if I'm sure Heimer doesn't interest me or your reason for it, sounds like you're trying to be shady. In regards to what is unique about Karma, "kiting" is not unique. But yeah, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Casri2 votesI fail to see how comparing Heimerdinger's ult and Karma's ult is unfair. They both upgrade basic abilities for one spellcast, the functionality is exactly the same. Pre-rework they were different as Karma's worked as an ammo system, not any longer though. We are obviously not saying Karma and Heimerdinger have the same basic abilities, that's absurd.
The main difference is that Karma's ult is on a much lower cooldown, which isn't a problem because the upgraded effects of her basic abilities are a lot less dramatic than Heimerdinger's when he ults. Comparing Heimer/Karma's ults makes absolute sense, afaik they are the only champions whose ults do exactly the same thing (upgrade basic abilities).
Your statement that comparing Karma/Heimer is like comparing Sona/Malphite is frankly baffling. Malphite's is a targeted area dash/knockup while Sona's is simply a linear stun, not to mention they deal different damage and have different scaling. Sona's can be reduced by tenacity, Malphite's cannot, Yasuo is able to ult off of Malphite's.. etc.
There is a fair comparison between Heimer R/Karma R because they do the same thing, this is not so for Sona/Malphite.
manbearswine1 votesI fail to see how comparing Heimerdinger's ult and Karma's ult is unfair. They both upgrade basic abilities for one spellcast, the functionality is exactly the same.
It's like saying aghanim scepter does the same thing for every hero,and has the same use for every hero. Not only is it unfair,it's downright retarded.
Pre-rework they were different as Karma's worked as an ammo system, not any longer though.
It also has a much shorter cooldown,which get's even shorter with her passive.
We are obviously not saying Karma and Heimerdinger have the same basic abilities, that's absurd.
Maybe they can be described in a similar fashion,but their function and what they bring is COMPLETELY different.
The main difference is that Karma's ult is on a much lower cooldown, which isn't a problem because the upgraded effects of her basic abilities are a lot less dramatic than Heimerdinger's when he ults.
It's distinctive since it makes her better at prolonged fights and skirmishes.
Comparing Heimer/Karma's ults makes absolute sense,
Nope.
afaik they are the only champions whose ults do exactly the same thing (upgrade basic abilities).
No,by this logic the majority of ults are the same as most are a "very strong ability on a large cooldown"
Your statement that comparing Karma/Heimer is like comparing Sona/Malphite is frankly baffling.
Ironically the latter is more valid than the former.
Malphite's is a targeted area dash/knockup while Sona's is simply a linear stun,
and for karma is an aoe speedboost/or an aoe nuke+slow/or a self heal+snare,whereas for heimer it's a stronger turret/aoe burst/aoe stun.
sona's is more similar to malphite than karma's is to heimers.
not to mention they deal different damage and have different scaling. Sona's can be reduced by tenacity, Malphite's cannot, Yasuo is able to ult off of Malphite's.. etc.
Unlike the effects of karma's ult vs heimers ult,which are totally the same thing. /s
There is a fair comparison between Heimer R/Karma R because they do the same thing, this is not so for Sona/Malphite.
except that they don't.
Casri3 votesYou're just being intentionally dishonest here and ignoring my main point to nitpick. My argument concerns Karma's identity. I am not saying that Karma and Heimerdinger have the same basic abilities, nor am I saying that once both ult, their abilities are magically the same. That's stupid, arguing as if I'm stating that is ridiculous and intentionally misses my point.
**What I am saying is that both of their ults upgrade their basic abilities for one spellcast. ** You cannot deny that both ultimates do this. Once cast, both Karma and Heimerdinger's basic abilities are ENHANCED for one spellcast. This is as far as my comparison/statement about similarity goes. I'm not saying Soulflare does the same thing as CH-3X Lightning Grenade, I'm saying the process by which those abilities are primed is exactly the same. Please reread this 10 times so you understand my point.
I'm not saying they have the same kit, I'm not saying they share basic abilities, I'm not saying they fill the same niche, nothing like that.
And as I've stated before, I realise that they have different cooldowns and Karma's can be reduced further through landing spells. But at the end of the day, both ultimates, once cast, enhance both champions' basic abilities for one spellcast. That's as far as my comparison goes, but it is ABSOLUTELY valid.
And as stated previously, this was not always the case. Karma's ultimate was unique previously in that it worked from an ammo system allowing her two use it twice in rapid succession.
manbearswine1 votesYou're just being intentionally dishonest here and ignoring my main point to nitpick. My argument concerns Karma's identity. I am not saying that Karma and Heimerdinger have the same basic abilities, nor am I saying that once both ult, their abilities are magically the same. That's stupid, arguing as if I'm stating that is ridiculous and intentionally misses my point.
**What I am saying is that both of their ults upgrade their basic abilities for one spellcast. ** You cannot deny that both ultimates do this.
I'm not denying this,I'm saying that it's an insanely pointless and worthless statement,their ults might be described similarly,but what they ACTUALLY DO IN THE GAME ITSELF AND NOT WHEN YOU WRITE THEIR DESCRIPTION IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
Once cast, both Karma and Heimerdinger's basic abilities are ENHANCED for one spellcast. This is as far as my comparison/statement about similarity goes. I'm not saying Soulflare does the same thing as CH-3X Lightning Grenade, I'm saying the process by which those abilities are primed is exactly the same. Please reread this 10 times so you understand my point.
I guess it's really hard for you to understand I'm not saying their description is different,I'm saying what they do is different. Please reread this as much as possible,as I doubt you are capable of understanding such simple things,but you might as well try.
I'm not saying they have the same kit, I'm not saying they share basic abilities, I'm not saying they fill the same niche, nothing like that.
And as I've stated before, I realise that they have different cooldowns and Karma's can be reduced further through landing spells. But at the end of the day, both ultimates, once cast, enhance both champions' basic abilities for one spellcast. That's as far as my comparison goes, but it is ABSOLUTELY valid.
It's not valid if it's worthless and absolutely has no implications on anything.
And as stated previously, this was not always the case. Karma's ultimate was unique previously in that it worked from an ammo system allowing her two use it twice in rapid succession.
It is still unique,having an ammo system doesn't make it any more unique than it already is. ...Aside from the description you seem to be so obsessed with.
Casri1 votes(snip)
You aren't actually saying anything here or even making a point. You're just saying that what I'm saying is wrong because... reasons, while all-capsing and insulting me. Very persuasive.
What I'm saying is not 'pointless' or 'worthless' in the context of Karma having a unique identity within the game, which is what my entire argument here has been about from the get-go. It's my belief, and several other players' belief that Karma would be a more interesting champion if she had a different ultimate, or if the functionality was different, like her pre-rework ult with the two-stack system.
I'm well aware (as I have painstakingly stated many times) that Karma and Heimerdinger's ultimates have different outcomes in that their basic abilities are different, thus the improved versions are different. This does not change the fact that both ultimates do the same thing initially when cast, they both empower all 3 basic abilities, and you then choose which spell to cast based on the scenario, the ultimate and the ability cast then both go on their full respective cooldowns. I don't understand how it's possible to take issue with such an accurate assessment. It's a very relevant statement to make when you're talking about champion uniqueness and identity.
what they ACTUALLY DO IN THE GAME ITSELF AND NOT WHEN YOU WRITE THEIR DESCRIPTION IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
I know that the result of the ultimates is different. I know that H-28Q Apex Turret ≠ Soulflare; Hextech Rocket Swarm ≠ Renewal; CH-3X Lightning Grenade ≠ Defiance. Believe me, I know these spells are very different. How many times must I state this? However the process of upgrading QWE for one spellcast is NOT a unique or interesting mechanic when it is shared (as I have stated and proven) by two champions. No other two champions have two ultimates which share the exact same mechanic/lack any kind of uniqueness.
Anyway, I feel bad for derailing the thread by even humouring your empty rhetoric. Make a coherent argument/counterargument, or just stop.
My apologies to everyone else in the thread.
IxtaliKing2 votesThe guy just flat out doesn't know what he's talking about and is arguing for the sake of it.
Casri2 votesIt certainly seems that way. It's frustrating engaging with people who don't seem to even care about a champion and then having to repeat incredibly obvious points ad-nauseum only to have them fall on deaf/apathetic ears.
It really inhibits having a productive conversation when someone refuses to engage in an honest manner. Such is the nature of the internet I guess.
Abyssphere1 votes[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ggPNvtni,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2016-02-11T19:35:19.656+0000)
You've played Karma once in your last 30 + games. How could you say she's "distinct enough" when her ult has been scrapped into a generic spell-changer.
haha you tell him he doesnt get us karmal mains
Kind regards from us
(one on left is new Karma, one on right is old)
ChaosReignsDown1 votesI love this post.. plz do not let ppl start playing her support.. please ignore my match history while playing karma supp.. She is terrible. :)
TNHA Baritone1 votesYou say it like she's a good support. I main Karma support and poking on her takes so much effort. I try not to take farm but Q is so dumb that i have to or else they ez dodge it.
you're only successful on it cause you're good <3
ChaosReignsDown2 votes[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ggPNvtni,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2016-02-11T18:15:43.567+0000)
You say it like she's a good support. I main Karma support and poking on her takes so much effort. I try not to take farm but Q is so dumb that i have to or else they ez dodge it.
you're only successful on it cause you're good <3
She is not the Best support.. there is not a "Best" support. It all depends on team comp, but with her poke and W (stun) you can really destroy short range ADC's. Her Shield makes winning trades ez. Late game with Magic pen..You transform into an APC that can half health the other team R+Q, or Mass bubble R+E.. and your stun can lock down any one that engages. Its all about if you like the kit though. Add me maybe we can play some games :)
SilverSquid3 voteshttp://www.feelsengine.com/var/albums/Facepalm/Facepalm%20Girl.png
Lulu pokes better in lane, W is NOT a stun, her shield isn't even that good compared to Lulu/Janna, magic pen makes her shield/heals weak, a support that has to go magic pen is not "supporting" and....
and your stun can lock down any one that engages.
.... a Rengar can kill two carries in the time it takes you to apply your ROOT.
How do you manage to get so much wrong in so little space [slayer-jinx-unamused]
ChaosReignsDown1 voteshttp://www.feelsengine.com/var/albums/Facepalm/Facepalm%20Girl.png
Lulu pokes better in lane, W is NOT a stun, her shield isn't even that good compared to Lulu/Janna, magic pen makes her shield/heals weak, a support that has to go magic pen is not "supporting" and....
.... a Rengar can kill two carries in the time it takes you to apply your ROOT.
How do you manage to get so much wrong in so little space [slayer-jinx-unamused]
You are correct. It is a root not a stun. (huge diff in this game, sorry) .. but ill have to disagree with the rest. Lulu does not poke harder than Karma.. the lvl 2 Root can secure kills for your adc super easy. "Supporting" as you would have it seems like someone who sits back and heals and does nothing else? I go magic pen and provide tons of support. Vision, roots, bubbles, and a lot of poke. ( Maybe if you cant land a good W+R+Q combo she is weak?).. either way there is not a "best" support like I said, but ill take a Karma into a Vayne and destroy her due to range every time. Its about comp.. I also play with a Duo who is my adc.. so its very easy to setup kills I guess. Have fun man.
SilverSquid3 votesLulu does not poke harder than Karma
I said "better". Because it's more reliable. Once enemies learn to stand behind minions propperly, you can barely hit them with Karma, without putting yourself in a bad position. Lulu can stand in the minions, E-auto-Q proccing TL and retreat.
the lvl 2 Root can secure kills for your adc super easy
It's not "super easy". Hitting Zyra's root is super easy, and it's faster and lasts longer (effectively, because you level it). The same goes for Lux and Morgana, but their roots last even longer, without the need of exposing themselves.
"Supporting" as you would have it seems like someone who sits back and heals and does nothing else?
No, why would you think that? Peeling, picking and vision are the most important. Providing damage is not. And Karma's pick potential is one of the worst, while her peeling is really soft for a mage.
ill take a Karma into a Vayne and destroy her due to range every time
You can zone a bad vayne, but a good one will dodge your Qs easily with tumble and condemn you if you try to tether.
Abyssphere1 votesI said "better". Because it's more reliable. Once enemies learn to stand behind minions propperly, you can barely hit them with Karma, without putting yourself in a bad position. Lulu can stand in the minions, E-auto-Q proccing TL and retreat.
It's not "super easy". Hitting Zyra's root is super easy, and it's faster and lasts longer (effectively, because you level it). The same goes for Lux and Morgana, but their roots last even longer, without the need of exposing themselves.
No, why would you think that? Peeling, picking and vision are the most important. Providing damage is not. And Karma's pick potential is one of the worst, while her peeling is really soft for a mage.
You can zone a bad vayne, but a good one will dodge your Qs easily with tumble and condemn you if you try to tether.
im ultra on mineplex lol i have a karma morph on there #freekarma
Kind regards from us
(one on left is old Karma, one on right is new)
Fanny Forecast1 votesI ended up making a thread a while back about reworking her and talked with other Karma mains about it. I had talked to FeralPony on afk.fm before making the thread, and he even told me hed respond to my thread after I made it and sent him a link. So I made the thread, sent him the link, discussed for a few days about how to rework Karma, and never received a reply from him. Still haven't over 2 weeks later, I'm p pissed tbh. Riot refuses to give Karma love, it seems.
TNHA Baritone3 votesI at least want a proper explanation as to why she isn't there and when will she get her changes.
Rain NT1 votesKarma is strong atm, sleeper strong top laner. Such an oppressive champ, completely anti-melee.
http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/NA/34750048?champion=43 The moment riot see this, they will know she doesnt need work lol. I hope they dont buff her either cause I would hate to face a good karma
IxtaliKing4 votesNobody is asking for a buff, it's about her being true to her theme and having a purpose.
TNHA Baritone1 votesWhat we're asking for is not a buff. Similar to Cassiopeia (except her model and spells were kept the same), the rework trampled her identity. I love the swirling fans. I also love the green lighting when she Mantras (so why not both, this is an augmentation [Mantra] that we're talking about)
I'd argue that current Karma is stronger, so we aren't looking for buffs.
SilverSquid3 votesThe problem is that they KEEP buffing her. And "being oppressive" doesn't make a good champion design.
I also want to congratulate you on having a 60% winrate on a champion that you permanently play, but this isn't very rare. Also it seems your best game were (14/5/11) and (6/4/21), while your worst games were (1/10/5) and (2/13/18). This really doesn't seem too impressive...
