Please reduce the situations in which Yasuo is extremely strong

MrSc0tty··3 votes·622 views

The problem with Yasuo is that for a high skillcap champ with a high. "Peak effectiveness point" it is too easy for that point to be hit. The big obvious issue is Windwall and Last breath.

TL;DR: Riot needs to go in and trim down the number of skills that are nullified by windwall and that trigger last breath.

This will stop Yasuo from being what he is now (E.G. A champ you pick in almost every situation) to a more specialist pickup (a champ you pick when your team comp suits him). Riot has stated they always prefer champs who are the latter over the former.

  1. Delayed AOE abilities should not be deleted by Windwall. They should either not be stopped, or trigger to full effect when they hit the windwall. Additionally, windwall should only block in the direction it is cast towards and should not block projectiles hitting it from behind.

This is largely a nerf to low-skill applied windwalls. It should not be infinite protection from everything including attacks from above or below. A Yasuo should not be able to cast windwall anywhere within an approaching AOE to block that spell (see Sorakas Starcall for a recent example). Windwall is Manaless and has the impact equivalent to the ultimates of many champions-it's intended gate is the skill and reaction time of the user. Adding exceptions would allow more Counterplay to the ability and require higher skill from the Yasuo player.

  1. Mini-displacements should not trigger Last Breath (very short durations knock ups or knock backs)

Many abilities were balanced with micro-cc before Yasuo's release because the duration was so small that it wouldn't significantly impact a fight. However, things like Trundle's pillar and Thresh's flay increase exponentially in power with a Yasuo pickup for no real reason. He can even trigger his ult off of ENEMY TEAM affecting ITSELF with displacements. A poorly placed Anivia wall can allow a Yasuo to engage for free, which is both burden of knowledge to the player and an exception to a longstanding rule (friendly fire DOES NOT exist in league except for this interaction.)

Add an exception that the cc Yasuo triggers his ultimate on must be longer in duration than a half of a second at max distance (that is, if a Trist ults someone directly into a wall that still is trigger able because the maximum distance they could travel from the ult is more than .5s)That should remove abuse cases like created terrain knockbacks, Bruiser secondary engages (Vi ult triggers but not Q) and other weird interactions that can change the course of a match on what feels like a cheap technicality.

8 Comments

MrSc0tty2 votes

High skillcap means that someone who doesn't know how to use him well will almost certainly fail. Someone who has never played Yasuo who picks him because the team has Janna Tristiana Malphite and Vi will still probably fail at him.

Playing him at the median required level of familiarity with the champion and an understanding of how he operates, Yasuo is too strong of a pick in too high a percentage of games. Is that thesis statement lawyery enough for you?

Oh no I'll have to rely on my own melee range Manaless waveclear combined with my long duration projectile blocking since I'm paired with one of the four ADCs who does not have waveclear. Lucky for me two of them have high potency triggers to my ultimate, I'll just instantly engage from half the map away and we'll deal with the minions after we get an ace.

How is it that every Yasuo player ignores the fact that Yasuo has a trigger to his ult on one of his other abilities? AOE damaging cc abilities requiring you to land a skillshot first is par for the course. See Amumu, Blitzcrank, Sejuani, even champs like Diana. Instant engages with AOE damage/cc come with requirements and restrictions as downsides more as a rule than an exception. The ability to piggyback off another champion is a synergistic bonus, and a huge one. Would it still be balanced if it triggered off of stuns? How about slows? Where's the line you're willing to draw on an ability that deals AOE damage and cc with a cross map engage with no mana cost and little cooldown?

12tales1 votes

High skillcap means that someone who doesn't know how to use him well will almost certainly fail. Someone who has never played Yasuo who picks him because the team has Janna Tristiana Malphite and Vi will still probably fail at him.

Playing him at the median required level of familiarity with the champion and an understanding of how he operates, Yasuo is too strong of a pick in too high a percentage of games. Is that thesis statement lawyery enough for you?

He's got a shit win rate in diamond, too.

Oh no I'll have to rely on my own melee range Manaless waveclear combined with my long duration projectile blocking since I'm paired with one of the four ADCs who does not have waveclear.

Melee waveclear sucks ass.

Also, I just wanna point out that 'cross map' isn't actually a very accurate description of an ability with lower range than Ziggs' Q.

Worgslarg1 votes

His windwall seems fine imo, unless you take its interaction with say.. nami's wave.

I would like to see his ult require some min "air time" before he could ult. This would increase the importance of actually landing his ult as compared to spamming R in teamfights waiting for something.

12tales1 votes

This will stop Yasuo from being what he is now (E.G. A champ you pick in almost every situation) to a more specialist pickup (a champ you pick when your team comp suits him). Riot has stated they always prefer champs who are the latter over the former.

Except he really isn't. Picking up Yasuo deprives your team of the safe waveclear, poke, and ranged auto attacks that are par for the course in mid lane. He also puts a huge amount of pressure on your own team in champ select, especially in lower elos where players don't necessarily have solid champion pools. Picking Yasuo blind or without a team comp that supports him is an incredibly stupid idea. The fact that he's considered a priority pick in soloq (especially low elo soloq) is a large part of why he has such a shitty win rate - he's not actually that good in absence of solid communication with your team and strong mechanical ability.

Add an exception that the cc Yasuo triggers his ultimate on must be longer in duration than a half of a second at max distance (that is, if a Trist ults someone directly into a wall that still is trigger able because the maximum distance they could travel from the ult is more than .5s)That should remove abuse cases like created terrain knockbacks, Bruiser secondary engages (Vi ult triggers but not Q) and other weird interactions that can change the course of a match on what feels like a cheap technicality.

But are these abuse cases? In every example I can think of, these miniature displacement effects are much smaller in scope and power than the huge ults that we usually think of being paired with Yasuo. No Trundle Pillar or Thresh Hook is gonna be as impactful as a Dragon's Descent, Tidal Wave or Unstoppable force that can potentially hit all five members of the enemy team, and going in on these tiny one man ultimates has an extremely hefty opportunity cost associated with it. Yasuo is naturally much more powerful when used in conjunction with high impact ultimates - the check that you suggest is already present, to some degree.

MrSc0tty2 votes

This will stop Yasuo from being what he is now (E.G. A champ you pick in almost every situation) to a more specialist pickup (a champ you pick when your team comp suits him). Riot has stated they always prefer champs who are the latter over the former.

Except he really isn't. Picking up Yasuo deprives your team of the safe waveclear, poke, and ranged auto attacks that are par for the course in mid lane. He also puts a huge amount of pressure on your own team in champ select, especially in lower elos where players don't necessarily have solid champion pools. Picking Yasuo blind or without a team comp that supports him is an incredibly stupid idea. The fact that he's considered a priority pick in soloq (especially low elo soloq) is a large part of why he has such a shitty win rate - he's not actually that good in absence of solid communication with your team and strong mechanical ability.

Add an exception that the cc Yasuo triggers his ultimate on must be longer in duration than a half of a second at max distance (that is, if a Trist ults someone directly into a wall that still is trigger able because the maximum distance they could travel from the ult is more than .5s)That should remove abuse cases like created terrain knockbacks, Bruiser secondary engages (Vi ult triggers but not Q) and other weird interactions that can change the course of a match on what feels like a cheap technicality.

But are these abuse cases? In every example I can think of, these miniature displacement effects are much smaller in scope and power than the huge ults that we usually think of being paired with Yasuo. No Trundle Pillar or Thresh Hook is gonna be as impactful as a Dragon's Descent, Tidal Wave or Unstoppable force that can potentially hit all five members of the enemy team, and going in on these tiny one man ultimates has an extremely hefty opportunity cost associated with it. Yasuo is naturally much more powerful when used in conjunction with high impact ultimates - the check that you suggest is already present, to some degree.

Every high mobility, high skillcap champion has a shitty overall winrate in Soloqueue. It doesn't mean they can't be overloaded and too generalist to the point where they can be picked in nearly every comp. Over half the champions in league have some way of triggering Yasuo's ulti and he has a skill that allows him to trigger it himself. He's not that risky of a pickup in any situation. Additionally don't forget that assassins have been a dominant pickup in midlane for a long while and Yasuo has the hard counter to ranged waveclear and poke right in his kit as well.

Anyone who thinks that you can't reliably get 4-5 people in Flay with a good engage does not regularly play Thresh. Yasuo's ultimate has an incredibly low cooldown-situations where you wouldn't want to use it are few and far between, and while it's true unstoppable force is strictly better at it, with my Trundle pillar or Thresh flay I can be sure I get my Last Breath off every single time it's off cooldown, unlike waiting for malphite's ult to be ready. There should be a relatively low number of basic skills with next to no cd that Last Breath can trigger off of. Multiplying the impact of the tiny displacement of a Trundle Pillar (which can hit several people at once pretty reliably as well) is a fringe abuse case, not an example of good overall game balance.

If we're being honest, it SHOULD apply only to strictly knock ups, but heaven forbid Yasuo not being an excellent pickup in every single game.

12tales1 votes

Every high mobility, high skillcap champion has a shitty overall winrate in Soloqueue.

I've got to wonder why he's an excellent pickup in every single game, then.

Over half the champions in league have some way of triggering Yasuo's ulti and he has a skill that allows him to trigger it himself.

Literally every other champion can use their ultimates regardless of their team comp. There's a pretty significant difference between "Doesn't matter who I'm playing with" and "Just over half of the champions in the game are able to allow me to use my ultimate, to varying degrees of success."

Anyone who thinks that you can't reliably get 4-5 people in Flay with a good engage does not regularly play Thresh.

Anyone who stands close enough to their teammates to be hit by a 5 man Flay against a Yasuo is bad. And honestly, the Thresh probably deserves a pretty sweet Yasuo ultimate if he's able to engage a fight that insanely well.

He's not that risky of a pickup in any situation.

Your Top Laner and ADC don't have waveclear.

BAM, risky Yasuo pick.

Eapenator1 votes

At this point after all the nerfs that have happened to Yasuo, the only real argument anybody can make against him is his Wind Wall.

In every other aspect of his kit, from his ultimate, e, q, and passive, Yasuo and his team lose out on significant advantages that other mid laners bring, like wave clear, cc, magic damage, and siege potential.

The wind wall on the other hand, will always remain to be a problematic spell as long as it exists in the game. In its current state, it takes absolutely no skill and no real conscious effort, other than simple reaction time, in order to use it to its maximum effectiveness. Its ability to create situations where Yasuo is able to get a get out of jail free card at almost no cost, while the enemy may have lost an opportunity that should have been theirs, ultimate cool downs, and possibly mana, is something that shouldn't exist in league of legends.

When Yasuo uses his wind wall to block your combo, you do not feel out played, you feel helpless.

Braum's wall is an example of how the mechanic can be used successfully, because with the way his kit is designed, he sacrifices his damage out put, his positioning, and he also takes damage. The opponent feels out played because braum requires his team mates to provide him the proper positioning, as well trust that they will use the opportunities that he has given them. In addition to this, braum can still take damage and be cc'ed after the intial block, making it so that you can lay some meaning full harass if you catch him out of place, or possibly create a pick.

12tales2 votes

The cost to using wind wall is not being able to use wind wall in the next 26 seconds. There are ultimates with less significant opportunity costs than that ability. Anyone can wind wall a Ziggs Q - good Yasuo's will recognize whether or not they can afford to blow Wind Wall or if they need to eat the damage to block a stronger ability later.

With that in mind - if Riot is going to nerf Wind Wall, I would rather see its cooldown hit than its effect. High cost/high reward leads to more interesting gameplay than medium risk/medium reward.

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