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Let's compare: Why is Lee considered unfair while Amumu is not?

MrSc0tty··121 votes·8,198 views

Amumu: Jungler. Powerful ganks. Initiates teamfights with a single target skillshot gapcloser and follows up with AOE damage and a potent cc ultimate that can win teamfights. The same general pattern as Lee Sin, and Amumu tends to boast a much higher overall winrate.

Here's a little guide for Riot as to why this little guy is generally considered okay by your players while Lee is consistently among the most hated champions in the game.

  1. An actual weak period. You know that Amumu is going to become a monster late game. That's why he has a glaring weakness early on you can capitalize on. Conversely, players feel that there is never a time where Lee Sin is vulnerable. Why?

  2. Safety. Amumu and Lee Sin both throw a Q.

Amumu goes in.

Lee sin has a several second window to consider, and even then may cancel immediately with a ward hop, and his ult is there as well for a disengage. Every element in Lee's kit he can use to make big plays he can use to prevent them as well.

  1. Rewards for Counterplay.

Amumu and Lee Sin miss a Q.

Amumu can do nothing-his long cooldowns mean that he has been outplayed for this fight.

Lee Sin can W+slow+R to accomplish the same thing then use his minute CD on Q to jump out to safety

There are so many redundant systems in lees kit to prevent Counterplay that there's almost no point in trying-you're not going to waste any resource or stop his "bigplays" from happening, you may as well just accept it.

115 Comments

Leafie75 votes

Amumu has to build damage to do damage.

Lee Sin with his high bases doesn't have that issue.

supes the lost17 votes

oh yeah, that ones my favorite, I'm camping under my tower then lee hops in, dragon kicks me in the face, I die, then he ward hops out.

Left Hook Larry1 votes

You do realize he has cooldowns right? He can't just hop in then hop out? If he ward jumps behind u he can't just ward jump away?

supes the lost1 votes

what I meant by hop in was his resonating strike, which if he lands, he very much can go in, delete me with ult kick, then hop back out on the ward he dropped on his way in or his ally.

Left Hook Larry1 votes

If you want his kick to do any damage you have to build damage items on him, which anyone rarely does. People use his kick as utility. How can you say Lee deletes champs when there are champs like Leblanc in this game? Lee has one of the lowest win rates for a reason

Solaxo4 votes

{quoted}

Amumu has to build damage to do damage.

Lee Sin with his high bases doesn't have that issue.

Also Amumu has mana

Rebonack44 votes

Amumu pretty much MUST start at Blue, otherwise he's going to go OOM in no time flat. It makes his jungle path predictable and vulnerable to early invades by certain LeeSin champions who will remain unnamed.

rampaging poet9 votes

Wasn't that kind of the point of the post? Amumu has several similarities to Lee Sin, but he has several weaknesses Lee Sin does not. Being vulnerable to early invades is one of the reasons way less people whine about Amumu than Lee Sin.

Sammystorm4 votes

I start red as amumu every game so I don't get invaded and killed at red.

Drakzul2 votes

{quoted}

Amumu pretty much MUST start at Blue, otherwise he's going to go OOM in no time flat. It makes his jungle path predictable and vulnerable to early invades by certain LeeSin champions who will remain unnamed.

Please don't act like you know a champion if you don't play them. I start kruggs->red->blue and have no problems with mana at any point. Only mana problems i could understand is if your stupid and leave w on inbetween camps.

The new jungle is actually very kind to amumu, you can sustain easily and can even counter jungle after blue due to your high clear speed.

JevelFaithful1 votes

Just a guess. Do you use E to clear too? Just thinking that might be the difference. That or 'mumu isn't as blue reliant as we tought.

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

Just a guess. Do you use E to clear too? Just thinking that might be the difference. That or 'mumu isn't as blue reliant as we tought.

I use E to clear. Machete covers your crying enough that you base mana regen plus it almost negate the costs. You run out of mana from using E and Q (Q being the biggest cost). E is generally what I get second and I can spam it until I clear blue for 3 then its back to not having mana issues again (I generally have about 25% mana left, so not enough to be considered a problem). Now once blue is gone you will start draining mana, but I mean you shouldn't be powerfarming too long as a really gank heavy champ.

All I can say is avoid using his Q too much. That is your biggest mana drain and usually isn't worth using for clears (especially more so if you fear counter jungling) unless you have blue buff active.

JevelFaithful1 votes

Pretty much same as I do. I should try it.

Drakzul2 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much same as I do. I should try it.

Yeah start e, use it on cd. Get w. Tears on in camps. Keep using e on cd. Easily get to blue that way. Then after you get blue you have a few options, since you shouldn't have taken much damage, you can take Q and go for counter jungle/gank. Or level up e again and continue farming or back.

Biggest thing to avoid later on is using q to leap to camps. It's faster but will trash your mana. Unless of course you have blue.

I prefer to stay Ranger's machete. However you can switch to chilling when you upgrade if you want. However ranger's lets you gank and clear almost non stop with the mana regen. Making you not even need blue after the first.

blubabby1 votes

If you require blue to jungle at all you're doing it wrong. You should be toggling your w on and off and not leaving it on.

PokladnicaZla25 votes

Amumu also has mana,while Lee can spamm.

AnOstrichWithPMS17 votes

I used to play amumu a lot last season, I would miss every grab and then run in and ult..it seemed to work for me lol

Zirzon5 votes

Don't forget that they added item 3800, which allows for him to rather easily position for ult without needing his q. In fact, I'm surprised I don't see him more often since this item removes a large part of his weakness.

Chessburger4 votes

His weakness is mana. His ganks cost so much... and unless you're going ap you need a lot of E's and seconds on W to clear camps.

And also you have to commit 100% to something as a champion rather squishy to burst damage at all points of the game except lategame.

TotalJerk3 votes

item 3800 gives him mana.

LeeDark3 votes

His weakness is STILL mana. He falls behind in the jungle if he doesn't start with blue buff. If he gets invaded, he doesn't have the tools to duel, so his buff WILL get stolen.

Akesgeroth10 votes

Amumu: Tanky, low damage, AoE stun ult, good gap closer.

Lee Sin: Tanky, high damage, good gap closer, AoE slow, baseline lifesteal and spell vamp, good gap closer, good escape, knockback, etc.

Basically, it's not just that Lee Sin has "high mobility", it's that he can go in with extreme ease and has two get-out-of-jail-free cards. People joke about the "Lee Sin" syndrome, where Lee Sin players have a tendency to jump in with Q even when it's not a good idea. Wanna know why? Because it almost never is. If something goes wrong, they can just use W to instantly get away. If an enemy gets close, they can use E to slow them. If they stay close, he can kick them away. And he doesn't have to worry about his mana when doing this.

The fact that he has high damage and is tanky on top is what makes him bullshit. DotA has similar heroes such as Slark but there's ways to deal with them and they're not both high damage and tanky. And they have to manage their mana. Not so much for Lee Sin who can have his cake and eat it.

Auz the Ripper8 votes

Amumu actually has decent damage....... ...... ...... As long as his mana holds out

killd0zer7 votes

I really wouldn't use mumu as a good example to compare Lee too. In fact, Amumu is usually the champ I recommend to my new friends when I smurf with them, because no matter how bad they are as mumu, the ult will still change fights.

MrSc0tty24 votes

{quoted}

I really wouldn't use mumu as a good example to compare Lee too. In fact, Amumu is usually the champ I recommend to my new friends when I smurf with them, because no matter how bad they are as mumu, the ult will still change fights.

I tried to find another champion to compare to but without bringing in three or four champs I can't compare to lees kit.

TaylorGaylor4 votes

{quoted}

I tried to find another champion to compare to but without bringing in three or four champs I can't compare to lees kit.

So, obviously, this is just another big post about how much someone hates Lee Sin.

Deletes thread

JevelFaithful16 votes

Precisely, and it's calmly explaining why people hate lee in design term. Few details, just design decisions that makes it easy to figure out how to solve the problems.

Z463 votes

I made a decently in-depth comment on another thread about the differences between Elise and Lee Sin, if you'd like me to bring that up.

Bídoof5 votes

You forgot the parts where: *leesin has a very weak lategame besides his ult *leesin has no AOE besides his ult *leesin has to use a skillshot Q and succesfull wardhops/flash to get his ult in position *leesin can miss his ult *pre-6 lee offers no hard cc where amumu has a breif stun on his Q

Leesin isnt overpowered and everyone needs to quit whining

BetaDude4012 votes

1.) Weak late game is irrelevant when you have an incredible early and mid game that gets you fed. Also, he doesn't drop off. Ever. Why do people keep saying he does???

2.) Lee Sin has his E. And don't tell me it doesn't do damage when it scales to 100% of his AD IN MAGIC DAMAGE

3.) Lee Sin's Q is also one of the fastest skillshots in the game, rivaling the speed of Ezreal's ult. It also has a fairly lenient hitbox. Wardhops aren't hard, either. Set sightstone or trinket to desired key, press key, W. Congrats, you did a ward hop.

4.) If you mean Lee can actually miss a lock-on targeted ability, then you have no idea how his ult works. If you mean that it's possible to hit the person the wrong way, then there is a tiny bit of merit in that, except when you consider all you have to do is get on the opposite end of where you want to send them hurtling across the map.

5.) Wanna know what else Amumu's Q does? It pulls him right next to the enemy. Unlike Lee's Q, where he gets a choice to go in or not, Amumu's only non-ult CC also drags him to the enemy. Also consider Amumu is a flat AP tank, while Lee Sin can build just about anything. And, unlike Lee Sin, if Amumu does go in, unless he has his ult, he isn't coming back out. Lee Sin just has to ult and/or ward hop away if he accidentaly goes in.

6.) Prove to me he isn't overpowered, when he doesn't have a SINGLE AD ratio in his kit below 90%, has two gap closers, a massive knockback, practically self-refunded energy, life steal and spell vamp, and damage based on % missing health.

Nahui4 votes

Lee Sin is worse. Lee sin has much more mobility. Sin can go in, then jump right out. Once Amumu is in, that's it. Also Lee sin can pick and choose who he singles out for his ult. Amumu has to hit R and hope he gets as many champs as possible. Lee sin is also simply faster and does more overall damage.

MrSc0tty14 votes

[{quoted}](name=KGB Vlastoyavich,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QooGhQos,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-02-01T15:59:11.815+0000)

Lee Sin is worse. Lee sin has much more mobility. Sin can go in, then jump right out. Once Amumu is in, that's it. Also Lee sin can pick and choose who he singles out for his ult. Amumu has to hit R and hope he gets as many champs as possible. Lee sin is also simply faster and does more overall damage.

Read the title page, not the post then?

U4fyn2vZzW4 votes

Amumu's earlygame is shit compared to Lee's, he walks circles around him early and mid game.

Don't compare that toxic piece of shit to Amumu.

MrSc0tty6 votes

{quoted}

Amumu's earlygame is shit compared to Lee's, he walks circles around him early and mid game.

Don't compare that toxic piece of shit to Amumu.

Right, but when a Lee Sin Q's in, slows then ults someone to his team, you instinctively feel as though he doesn't have the right to do that, he hasn't earned it. An Amumu bandaging in, tantrum ing and ulting feels more fair because you know he has to commit, you know his early game was weak, and you know if you'd dodged that he'd have no other way to be useful.

U4fyn2vZzW5 votes

The problem with Lee is that he isn't punished at all for missing his Q's. He has a high base movement speed to catch up, can ward hope, can tempest-cripple you, can easily wait for it to come up again because of its low cooldown.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, they need to make his Q have a high energy cost but cause his second Q cost to cost lesser energy but refund energy if it hits an enemy champion. That way he actually is punished for missing Q's.

Old Man Teeto4 votes

Amumu is a poor duelist and unlikely to be able to punish over extended or just solo farming a lane individually.

Lee Sin can do both, while having the freedom to start anywhere in the jungle.

Cindikle3 votes

Amumu's early game is lower and his ganks rely on his lanner more.

Amumu is mana based.

Amumu's mobility is tied to a single ability. Lee gets two. One has more utility. Other one he can choose not to go in after he lands it.

Lee has sustain

Lee can put a champion in harms way. Amumu has to rely on his team to make use of his CC.

Really cannot compare the champions too much. Amumu is a teamfighter with situational picks. Lee makes picks and plays with fewer restrictions.

Hawkefire3 votes

I will say this much about amumu (and honestly its the only issue I have with amumu), is that the hitbox on his Q is quite stupid. I really wish they would fix those heatseeking bandages.

JevelFaithful3 votes

Only thing that, I think, would deserve more mention is that lee is all around statistically strong. Last I heard, he was still a good duelist, which amumu is not. And he has a strong very early game (level 1-3). But otherwise, very good comparison.

Sammystorm2 votes

Amumu is only really weak the frist 2 levels. After that he can gank and should gank all the time.

Chessburger8 votes

Problem is if you get counter ganked you and your laner are dead. Because your Q is on such a long cd early and the W and E don't do enough burst compared to AA reliant junglers who aren't that gated by cds - the currently best junglers in the form of lee jarvan reksai vi...

Constant ganks work if you know the position of their jungler otherwise you're just playing with fire and it's a really bad playstyle in objective terms.

Sammystorm1 votes

amumu can gank earlier then most jungle champions atm and with more hp. Yes you did highlight a weakness of amumu. However each of the other junglers has weak points too. They just tend to be later then amumu which is fine.

Chessburger2 votes

I don't know if we're playing the same game then. Amumu is one of the weakest clearers pre machette upgrade right now.

In case you're serious and I'm running the wrong setups post your runes masteries and clear path.

LordOfTheLeague1 votes

There are 2 componants of the problem for me. Lee sin is too versatible and too forgiven but amumu is too straightforward. Lee sin got all this support to stay the way he is (leesin circle jerk you call it ?) because he is not only strong in multiple areas but actually really fun.

We need lee sin to be less but more champs close to lee sin.

And I want to say, I think it is the way to create more diversity in pro plays. Because most pros prefer to play skilled champs.

MrSc0tty5 votes

{quoted}

There are 2 componants of the problem for me. Lee sin is too versatible and too forgiven but amumu is too straightforward. Lee sin got all this support to stay the way he is (leesin circle jerk you call it ?) because he is not only strong in multiple areas but actually really fun.

We need lee sin to be less but more champs close to lee sin.

And I want to say, I think it is the way to create more diversity in pro plays. Because most pros prever to play skilled champs.

Sorry, but that last statement is totally false. Pros prefer to play whatever champ wins the most consistently.

Mundo is not by any means a skilled champ. Yet he consistently shows up as a steadfast answer to many metas because he is incredibly safe. Same with Caitlyn. Same with Orianna and Xerath. Same with Lee. They are the lowest risk highest reward champs out there and that's always what the pros are gonna do.

I am the Remedy1 votes

Let me know how many master/challengers main mundo.

Orianna and Xerath both take quite a bit of skill to use effectively.

MrSc0tty1 votes

{quoted}

Let me know how many master/challengers main mundo.

Orianna and Xerath both take quite a bit of skill to use effectively.

Not masters/challengers. Masters/challengers do main high skillcap champs. Pros. Pros who are paid based on how much they win games. Pros will play whatever it takes to win, no matter what the skillcap is. Spear nuker Nidalee was 100% the most steadfast and popular mid pick until AP Nids removal. Shyvana ruled the jungle not long ago. Renekton was the king of top, then Ryze was. Remember the reign of support Annie? These are very, very easy champs.

I am the Remedy1 votes

Pro games and solo queue might as well be two different games. Lee sin's strong early game and lack of resources needed (energy, sight stone, etc.) make him ideal in competitive situations where early leads are often snowballed into objective after objective. Good luck getting that type of cooperation in solo queue where your team is more likely to just piss away the early advantage you may or may not have given them.

I am the Remedy1 votes
  1. A: Amumu has a weak period? Try and 1v1 him early game and tell me he's "weak". Hint: He's not B: Lee sin falls off a cliff late game. Amumu's late game is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better than lee's it's ridiculous that you even make this statement.
  2. Agreed. Lee sin is very safe both while counter jungling (which is crap this season) and when being counterjungled (again, which is crap this season).
  3. Lee sin q's in, he gets knocked up (janna q, blitz hook, wukong ult, vi q, etc.) HE DOES NO DAMAGE. Amumu's q tries to get interrupted? Damage is still done, and you're still stunned. You forgot that amumu's Q stuns as well? Oh and amumu's q has a WHOPPING 1 second longer cd than lee's Q.
  4. getting lee's kick to be aoe is SIGNIFCANTLY harder to do than Amumu's ult. The trade off for this is that lee can kick carries into your team. Ofc amumu has 3 seconds of lockdown which is pretty similar.
  5. "Lee Sin can W+slow+R to accomplish the same thing then use his minute CD on Q to jump out to safety " That is horse shit. Good luck doing that even in plat without getting interrupted into oblivion.

Amumu is actually stronger than lee in the current jungle and meta. That's why his win rate is so much higher. It's almost unbearably hard to carry games with Lee this season. I can do pretty much all of his tricks (which I've spent A LONG TIME to learn). All of this still doesn't make up for the late game where he becomes a glorified support with some burst potential. Add to that fact that his greatest strength, counterjungling, has been nerfed to hell because of the xp loss from not farming your own jungle (camps give you more xp depending on how many times they've had to respawn), and the ridiculous XP bonuses granted to you when you're underleveld this season and he's a far cry from his glory days when he was hands down one of the best jungler in the game.

He is still very very good in competitive play. But competitive play might as well be a different game from solo queue.

Autrah Fang3 votes

{quoted}

  1. A: Amumu has a weak period? Try and 1v1 him early game and tell me he's "weak". Hint: He's not

stopped reading there. invade his blue and he is behind until blue comes up again. he is one of the most mana hungry junglers (at least, he was like 2 seasons ago, when i played him a lot), meaning he is gonna go oom fairly often. try to 1v1 before that second blue comes up and he'll go oom before he can really do much to you, especially if you're playing a good early game dueler.

then, you can just counter jungle his blue next time it respawns as well

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