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Rapid Firecannon and Statikk Shiv need the Hydra treatment

Shuyin178··112 votes·4,723 views

One thing I notice a lot in matches, not just my own, are the ADCs that build BOTH Rapid Firecannon and Statikk Shiv. 2 twin items that operate the same but have their own take on the Energized passive. This got me thinking, why haven't they gotten the Hydra treatment? For those few who are unaware, you are unable to buy both Ravenous Hydra and Titanic Hydra. So why are we able to buy both Rapid Firecannon and Statikk Shiv? It's the exact same relationship as the Hydras, so why are they still allowed to pair up but the Hydras are not?

I understand that both Hydras together would give massive wave-clearing if their Cleaves worked together, but right now you have ADCs with ridiculous attack speed between these 2 items, with crit boosting, stacking movement speed, and having Statikk Shiv go off at Rapid Firecannon's ranges making it even safer than it should be. I'm failing to see why this has not been addressed yet by anyone because of how powerful the interaction between these 2 items are at current.

86 Comments

Warlord Rhinark59 votes

Riot is a bunch of ADC mains.

Melledoneus14 votes

Meddler is a support main.

JRobin3119 votes

So it's confirmed! Meddler supports ADCs![slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Moltres Sucks5 votes

It all makes sense nowitem 3504

Succubús GF1 votes

Meddler is actually piss poor at balancing so I'm kinda surprised :/

Melledoneus3 votes

He's the champion of getting shit done lol.

He's the one Rioter I know who consistently maintains communication, and when he steps in to solve a problem it is almost always done right. Can't think of an instance where it hasn't.

Sorry friend, I doubt your beef is with Meddler.

Succubús GF1 votes

Not sure if you are an assassin main but he has commented, approved and even worked on a few assassins in a HORRID way. Overall a lot of the instances where he has done poorly kinda just gets swept under the rug.

ƒiut Ðisa 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord smilla,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gU3LjMAM,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-22T13:59:08.181+0000)

Riot is a bunch of ADC mains.

They propably would be if they had ''time to play league'' how Ghostcrawler said

Meep Man20 votes

Well, Rapid Firecannon specifically promotes you building both.

Jbels15 votes

You know for the longest time, Shiv and RFC used to force you to only buy one of the other because they didn't interact with each other and had unique passives. Before that, they DID interact with each other and it was cancer. I sense a pattern.

Salron4 votes

They've ALWAYS worked together There are 2 things that have changed:

The damage was changed to not stack That change caused them to no longer be built together, but you could still always apply shiv from rfc's range

The next change more recently was making rfc increase energize generation passive by 25%, which is what caused the combo to return

There was no point in time where you couldn't use them together

Paroe4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Face The Win,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gU3LjMAM,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-10-22T20:40:33.652+0000)

They've ALWAYS worked together There are 2 things that have changed:

The damage was changed to not stack That change caused them to no longer be built together, but you could still always apply shiv from rfc's range

The next change more recently was making rfc increase energize generation passive by 25%, which is what caused the combo to return

There was no point in time where you couldn't use them together

No, there was. The previous iteration was like that, but then they were changed.

When RFC was introduced, its DAMAGE stacked AND you would proc shiv on towers. Then it was nerfed and energized passives could no longer stack. And finally it was changed so that the energized passives could stack but the damage would only be whatever was highest but the modifiers would still be there.

Its one of the main reasons behind the idea of changing echo to be an AP energized effect. The damage would be whatevers highest, but each new energized passive would add new modifiers to your energized attack. Warlords: +50% lifesteal and some MS Shiv: 120-300 magic damage and arcs to nearby enemies RFC: 150 magic damage, gains 25% range, and works on structures Echo: 100+0.2AP magic damage, and works on abilities

In fact, if we put a focus on energized effects we could get rid of crit entirely FOR energized effects. It would be fun, making energized the class focus for marksmen instead of BPS.

Salron4 votes

You want to look at the patch history for both items and point me to the period in time where the energized passives couldn't stack?

Yes there was a point where the DAMAGE stacked and was changed not to do so anymore, but that has not been changed since

This is the only change in Shiv's patch history pertaining to its interaction with RFC from patch 5.24:

The bonus damage to your target from Rapid Firecannon and Statikk Shiv no longer stack. Only the greater damage is dealt

Muzét10 votes

Damage don't stack. The only thing that work by buying both is the recharge time that get decreased (thanks to RFC) Riot chose to do that probably because RFC wasn't appealing enough by itself (towers get down way too easily and damage from RFC is poor - and can't crit)

DuskDaUmbreon25 votes

Well, while damage doesn't combine, the way it is dealt does. You don't do RFC and Shiv's damage to a single target, but you do get the range of RFC to apply Shiv.

Muzét8 votes

yup but RFC isn't an issue by itself. Statik deals too much damage anyway.

TheGoomyGamer8 votes

If stattik couldn't crit it wouldn't be that bad, because pre-midseason, RFC had the damage of current statikk.

Muzét5 votes

I'd definitely prefer to see RFC Crit and statik not crit. Statik could receive a buff to minion damage to compensate since it's supposed to clear waves and not enemies.

TheGoomyGamer1 votes

This would definitely be a step in the right direction.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

RFC needs to do more damage than Shiv. The trade off should be that one is for high single target damage while Shiv does less damage damage if used on one target but more if it hits multiple targets.

Kaìju1 votes

They could buff RFC so that it gives you the range increase for say 1.5 or 2 seconds, making it better for ADCs that have high attack speed, letting them auto maybe four times at extra range but worse for burst marksmen who only get maybe two autos.

Muzét2 votes

worse for burst marksmen who only get maybe two autos.

Except Jhin and Xayah. The predominant Marksmen right now got high AS and/or Enhanced AD through steroid Twitch Tristana KogMaw . So I don't think it is the answer. It will be simpler to make it crit and it can crit on towers too. (And doesn't stack with shiv). So everything will be fine.

Terchio7 votes

First off, you can buy both Hydras. However, their passives don't stack, as they're unique, so I think Ravenous overrides, except you get to pick how you use the active Cleave.

A more accurate comparison, though, would be the Sheen items, which do have forms of stacking, just like the Kircheis Shard items. Essentially, all the shared items use their effects, and then afterward the most effective on that unit overrides the rest. On Sheen, that means item 3078 first, then either of item 3057 item 3025 , then item 3100 on the main target, unless item 3100 has enough AP to override the other effects, while item 3025 is the only applicable effect for any Sheen effects on enemies in range.

However, item 3087 is the only AoE option, as well as the strongest proc. Therefore, the only benefits of item 3094 item 3087 over Statikk Shiv alone would be in range, charge rate, and application to structures (though Shiv might not damage the structures directly?). Considering it's a 33% faster charge, one-time range benefit, and not notably powerful against structures as a combo, I don't think it is overpowered as an effect at double the cost. I'd say item 3046 synergizes more with lack of loss of any effects, plus the same stats that make Shiv sting as much as it does with RFC, that being 60% crit chance and high attack speed to proc it quicker.

Crit is just powerful, simply put. Please stop making Energize the scapegoat here. I feel RFC could use some love, if anything.

JustSaiyan691 votes

You can't buy both hydras.

Terchio3 votes

I literally just did it when making this. Yes you can.

JustSaiyan691 votes

I've tried before, it doesn't let me buy both, once I get either ravenous or titanic it greys one of them out and I can't purchase them. Unless they changed that because I haven't tried buying both in months.

Terchio1 votes

Probably back when they stopped letting you swap between the two? I Couldn't say.

Auz the Ripper4 votes

Riot deliberately added the “faster energize” passive to Rapidfire cannon so there’d be a reason to buy both of them together. Riot has always wanted them to be bought together, originally the damage of the two stacked and the patch spotlight specifically pointed it out as a intended feature. Of course that “feature” was disabled the next patch because it was about as balanced as you might think

Tachibana Rika4 votes

so many item 3070 item 3070 when tank was meta u guys didn't give a shit about adc,

and now this LUL

SlashStriker3 votes

I don't see what is the problem here. The damage does not stack

Penns10 votes

The safety stacks with the burst

DracosKasu2 votes

The dmg doesnt stack but it take the strongest effect of each. So you have a long range statick shiv which give a safety net that wasnt there before.

SlashStriker1 votes

{quoted}

The dmg doesnt stack but it take the strongest effect of each. So you have a long range statick shiv which give a safety net that wasnt there before.

I don't see how the range would be a problem but couple of patches ago Riot buffed those items

Aimléss3 votes

They recently made it so there is synergy with building both in the mid-season update, cause before it was awful. If they were going to do that, they might as well just revert those changed. But I don't think those items are the problem with ADC, it's mainly censor, and the fact that the game has a ton of supports that specialize in defending, but none that sacrifice defenses, but specialize in offenses. Imagine if there was a support that didn't heal allies in an AOE like Janna, but instead Lowered enemy defenses in an aoe, an offensive Janna would be a great counter to her.

Rengooo3 votes

I don't really see an issue with buying both, but they should at least be full priced items, $2,600 each is so absurdly cheap.

I also think half the issue is how much burst they provide an adc with, adc's have and always should be dps orientated, not burst followed by dps. A solution could be that you loose energized stacks out of combat, so you have to build them up in the fights?.. It would work for statikk at least, not so sure about rapid fire.

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

I don't really see an issue with buying both, but they should at least be full priced items, $2,600 each is so absurdly cheap.

I also think half the issue is how much burst they provide an adc with, adc's have and always should be dps orientated, not burst followed by dps. A solution could be that you loose energized stacks out of combat, so you have to build them up in the fights?.. It would work for statikk at least, not so sure about rapid fire.

All zeal items are 2600g. Its a "balance point". Zeal itself is only 1200g.

Also, energized is not true burst. Its, at most, 300 before mitigation on a crit at level 18; people are simply blaming energized because its easier to make excuses than it is to deal with the actual problem... ... A good doctor will treat the cause, not the symptom. What people want to do is treat the symptoms; Supports, enchanters, ardent censor, energized, whatever they see as "the problem". In reality all nerfing those things does is compound nerf because the real thing that makes them strong will be nerfed eventually.

SithesisLord2 votes

All zeal items are 2600g. Its a "balance point". Zeal itself is only 1200g.

A pretty bullshit balance point. PD's both passives would easily leave it 150%+ gold efficient.

The only other item that comes close to being this gold efficient is a fully stacked Rageblade.

If Zeal items are priced the same, then so should Sheen items.

It´s just a balance point after all.

Bard R Friday2 votes

Because the damage doesn't stack with these two, you buy Rapid Firecannon for extra range and faster energize and you buy Statikk Shiv for burst damage and waveclear. They are completely different purposes, and that's the point of energize. There are three different sources of it that all do different things, and you can stack them together to build around energize.

xelaker2 votes

Amazing idea, make them melee only items. Wait... not where you were going with that?

The Ecdysiast2 votes

The items were introduced specifically to be used together, as they were intended to increase the pool of high critical strike chance items. If they made it impossible to buy them at the same time, then they would need to increase the critical strike chance of other items to compensate.

Rockman2 votes

...so? RFC and Shiv are better at taking towers but they are worse at actually killing tanks.

Poske1 votes

I understand that both Hydras together would give massive wave-clearing if their Cleaves worked together

Lul ? you can clear a wave with ravenous hydra in 1 second. Literaly no fking diff with 2 hydras

Its made that way probably because of spaggeti code

Realisticly none would buy double hydra anyway

DarkRitual1 votes

Fiora would be at the top of that list. Trundle probably below her for pure splitpush builds.

Poske2 votes

Diamond 2 talking

NONE WOULD BUILD BOTH OF THIS ITEMS PERIOD

DarkRitual3 votes

Yes yes, and nobody would build item 3115 on Orianna either, right?

Poske3 votes

I built Nashor on Ori way back before POE did. And its not her best build tbh

I mained ori since her release back when she was a 42% winrate champion

Why would you go 2 waveclear items when one is sufficient

If you have ravenous then the next tiamat would share a cooldown

There is so much wrong with your low elo assumption

Building to many offensive items on trundle is generaly bad also

14cminurmum1 votes

I remember when ADC could build phantom IE botrk LW and QSS and could auto a tank for 20 seconds then die. Let's not go back to the short range adc with no dmg other than physical dmg.

Paroe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flocks of Teemo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gU3LjMAM,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2017-10-23T00:08:56.541+0000)

I remember when ADC could build phantom IE botrk LW and QSS and could auto a tank for 20 seconds then die. Let's not go back to the short range adc with no dmg other than physical dmg.

Yes, a time when 1.2 attack speed and 200AD was the norm.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

People think a tank meta is bad, until the one thing that is supposed to kill tanks can't kill tanks at all.

Then they realize what a real tank meta is.

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