Gutting Ardent Is The Healthiest Thing Done In Awhile

Shuyin178··106 votes·4,412 views

Ardent Censer Unique Passive attack speed lowered from [20% - 35%] to [10% - 30%] additional damage lowered from [20 - 35] to [5 - 20]

Now bot lane can use more than just shield/heal supports once again. Whenever I play support, I use all-in champions like Leona. Feeling like I had to take something like Nami, Lulu, or Janna in every game as a support felt terrible. I'm happy I can finally play support the way I want to play it again instead of feeling like I'm handicapping my team by picking something that isn't Ardent compatible.

117 Comments

Worst Kench NA45 votes

Tell me about it. I main Nami and hate Ardent with a passion. I much prefer the Locket+Redemption build because it puts more pressure on me to use it at the right time. With Ardent I just E my carry. It's so braindead. Don't even get me started on the fact that people fucking rush it over a SIGHTSTONE. Or that ADCs would buy a SUPPORT ITEM literally so they could get their support gold to buy Ardent.

Fuck gutting it. Remove it entirely.

Somebody Love Me6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Worst Kench NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0WpXlrOE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-19T02:39:12.062+0000)

Tell me about it. I main Nami and hate Ardent with a passion. I much prefer the Locket+Redemption build because it puts more pressure on me to use it at the right time. With Ardent I just E my carry. It's so braindead. Don't even get me started on the fact that people fucking rush it over a SIGHTSTONE. Or that ADCs would buy a SUPPORT ITEM literally so they could get their support gold to buy Ardent.

Fuck gutting it. Remove it entirely.

Nami's E doesn't even proc Ardent :o It's her W, and it's pretty lackluster compared to other Ardents.

I just wanna be able to abuse melee supports as Nami, but in this Ardent meta, there are no melee supports D:

darkmatchwaldo1 votes

Rakan ?[zombie-nunu-tears]

LordGeovanni2 votes

Rakan is ranged at 350 units i think Taric can use ardent and can be played since i assume most of us dont play pro matches even if all his spells have horrible delay and effectiveness out side of his ult.

Glory ln Death2 votes

Support Sion's pick rate has nearly doubled, since he crushes Ardent supports. Still a low pick rate, though.

50000000000000001 votes

Doubled? Like... from some 40% to 80%? or what do you mean

Glory ln Death3 votes

Nearly doubled - from 0.6% pick rate to a respectable 1% pick rate.

50000000000000002 votes

Oh, pick rate doubled. My bad, can't read.

Glory ln Death2 votes

SUPPORT SION'S WINRATE DOUBLED!!!! RAAARRRRGHAAOGNOEFVOEHVDOV!!!!! 53% WINRATE UP TO 106% WINRATE!!!! TOO OP, RITO PLS NERF!!!!

50000000000000002 votes

Sion, the new Ardent Censer

Glory ln Death2 votes

The Ardent Sionser.

Sp33d Zer015 votes

How do you main nami and not know that your w is your activator?

Worst Kench NA7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0WpXlrOE,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2017-10-19T08:15:09.981+0000)

How do you main nami and not know that your w is your activator?

Oops! You're right, typo. Still though, delete Ardent.

Spank the Fox4 votes

Ardent would actually make sense of champions like Nami (Lulu). On Hit effects to bolster your on-hit effect kit. Ardent is overtuned now, but has some decent potential if Riot can balance it better.

Shame you'd prefer building like a Soraka with that Locket Redemption build, but w/e. Gut diversity xd

MrryZ6 votes

It's not diversity when it was a staple pick. they will try balance the item eventually but right now to encourage champion balance in the support role gutting it is the best and quickest option.

TheHappyReaperz2 votes

Balancing the item is the best option, gutting it is the quickest.

MrryZ2 votes

Best option because they don't have the time to work out how to balance it cause it's too strong...

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Riot is never gonna be able to balance an unconditional statstick. It does nothing but boost stats in a way it is unhealthy beyond believe. More heals and shield, 60 AP, an on hit/AS. Going to upload a ranked game of mine soon where i'm maokai 3 lvl ahead of ezreal with 180 Armor. He is half health facechecking me in brush. He has 180 AD with warrior and trinity. He attacks me, does jack dmg until taric heals him and he gets ardent proc and suddenly he ANNIHILATES me. This item is a cancer to this game.

Skorch1 votes

"Or that ADCs would buy a SUPPORT ITEM literally so they could get their support gold to buy Ardent."

I like more gold though, so thats nice.

(To clarify im not saying Ardent SHOULDNT be gutted, just ADCs caring about their supports gold income is nice for a change.)

Blitzcrank : JUST LET ME EXECUTE THE CANNON Twitch : Your melee i dont trust you to get it. Blitzcrank : ...

Zerdun28 votes

Gutting an item is not a healthy game decision, the proper thing to do would have probably been to initially make the current censor scale with level and test that. Then if its still too strong after nerfing the items early game to hell then the next step is to make micro nerfs until the power level is appropriate. This screams of a nerf like the ones Ive seen on WoW where people complained enough and it got nerfed TO THE GROUND when it only needed some minor touching up

Completely gutting an item just moves it next to Ohmwrecker and kills build diversity, which is boring. With the amount of changes made to it I am uncertain if it will be worth the gold without actually being on the PTR and testing it.

Are these nerfs appropriate? I dunno I'm not on PTR. I do know the current incarnation is strong but not nearly as strong as the one previously. Now with these new changes I'm not sure if this new one will be worth purchasing at all on enchanter supports for anything outside a 5th or 6th item. (because they still need to buy Locket, Redemption, Sight stone, ect)

Khristophoros23 votes

When an item is so overpowered that you always rush it on every support it hurts build diversity and champ diversity for both supports and ADCs. So it improves build and champ diversity to gut that item.

The item being so dominant indicates that the effect it gives is too synergistic with other things that are also strong so you can't just spend a few patches giving it love taps. It'll remain dominant until it's one too many love taps and you've gutted it. It just took like 4-5 patches at that point and the meta was shit the entire time.

If the dominant thing in question was healthy in the first place maybe you'd want to take a slow strategy and slowly encourage alternatives, but that isn't the case this time. The meta is fucking trash and everyone hates it.

Krinu11 votes

So what about item 3031 and item 3165? Both of those are "rush build" on a whole pile of champions.

Look; I'm not trying to say Ardent Censor is fine on live. It was broken in worlds, it's overpowered now, but gutting it simply because it's must build on enchanter supports isn't a good idea. Hell, gutting it in general is probably bad, although I'd accept it if it was just getting nuked until the preseason updates.

Enchanter supports should have power. Tank supports can decide the course of a teamfight. Mage supports eventually graduate into mages in their own right. There's no reason why enchanter supports should just be a minor boost to the ADC when it'd be a major boost if it was a mage or tank support.

An ADC/support combo should be roughly twice as powerful as the same ADC solo, regardless of whether that support is an enchanter, a mage, or a tank.

Garekk9 votes

IE and Morellos dont make every character in that role who doesnt use those items useless, because just about every AD and Mid wants those items.

For Ardent on the other hand, if you werent a support who could abuse it, you werent picked. Period. There was no reason to play Braum or Thresh or Leona or whoever because Lulu and Janna and Nami were so disgustingly strong with it. IE and Morello's dont have that problem. They dont make dozens of champions outright inferior just by existing.

IoLana2 votes

Braum can proc ardent through stone born pact with his passive and Q his slow and stun heals the adc through stoneborn.

Glory ln Death4 votes

And he basically becomes a crappy melee version of those enchanter supports, while being extremely squishy because he has to put off buying tanky items.

LordGeovanni1 votes

then why is lucain and Ezreal considered bad right now.... because they use spells and cant keep up with ardent censer using adcs aka every adc with a built in attack speed buff which is just as previlant as ardent censer but ardent censer is the cause because those adcs have always been busted with their attack speed but ardent censer just took it to a new level.

FCJAAAAGOOOO1 votes

{quoted}

Gutting an item is not a healthy game decision, the proper thing to do would have probably been to initially make the current censor scale with level and test that. Then if its still too strong after nerfing the items early game to hell then the next step is to make micro nerfs until the power level is appropriate. This screams of a nerf like the ones Ive seen on WoW where people complained enough and it got nerfed TO THE GROUND when it only needed some minor touching up

Completely gutting an item just moves it next to Ohmwrecker and kills build diversity, which is boring. With the amount of changes made to it I am uncertain if it will be worth the gold without actually being on the PTR and testing it.

Are these nerfs appropriate? I dunno I'm not on PTR. I do know the current incarnation is strong but not nearly as strong as the one previously. Now with these new changes I'm not sure if this new one will be worth purchasing at all on enchanter supports for anything outside a 5th or 6th item. (because they still need to buy Locket, Redemption, Sight stone, ect)

Hey, now. Let's not pretend it's not a good lategame item anymore just because it gives marksmen 5% less AS.

Azadethe1 votes

{quoted}

Hey, now. Let's not pretend it's not a good lategame item anymore just because it gives marksmen 5% less AS.

It's the added damage, not attack speed, that snowballs the game. That added damage affects turrets. A spamlord like a Sona can help a team erase a full mid lane on an Ace. But at the same time, in champ fights, its impact is low.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Well it's kinda both when a varus with rageblade and boots reaches 2,0 attack speed in 18 mins. Or a trist with IE and zeal with 2 attack speed-

DariusDemiurge11 votes

Don't worry, they will just fuck something else up and we will be at another point just like the age of the ardent.

AurumLight11 votes

Nerf feels a bit much, you could at least keep the old late game values but nerf the early ones so it is not a "must rush" item. The attack speed and on-hit for the caster feels somewhat excessive, and while I liked the idea in practice it doesn't feel that great to use for me.

Still wouldn't mind Ardent having either:

  1. Reduced value on AOE heals/shields, vs. single target ones. This could get confusing though, so I'm a bit less sold on it. And/Or
  2. Some sort of mechanism in place to ensure it is not "always on". Maybe having the effect dissipate when the shield expires or gets destroyed. Or even an internal cooldown on targets that have received the effect.
notice me Sin pi2 votes

{quoted}

  1. Some sort of mechanism in place to ensure it is not "always on". Maybe having the effect dissipate when the shield expires or gets destroyed. Or even an internal cooldown on targets that have received the effect.

i really like that idea. That would not only serve as a nerf, but also make supports think twice on when to use their heals/shields; right now it's just [i pressed E on my adc so my job is done]. With that change, it would be [should i use it for offensive buffs or defensive shielding?], which adds a bit more depth to skill expression.

dunder kill10 votes

Tbh that not even really gutting it. Thats probably just bringing it down to sub par until lategame. Either way that thing needed the nerfbat

Shuyin1785 votes

Gutted in the sense that it's no longer a "Buy this 1st item no matter what" thing anymore.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Than it's nerfed, not gutted.

Azadethe2 votes

{quoted}

Tbh that not even really gutting it. Thats probably just bringing it down to sub par until lategame. Either way that thing needed the nerfbat

It already had the nerfbat. They removed its on hit healing to people enchanted by it.

dunder kill2 votes

No, those changes dropped it from disgustingly broken to just plain overpowered

xJLx MCHammer8 votes

It's not gutted. Still strong just not OP

They should just make it so that it doesn't just benefit ADC's so much. Let it work on AP as well...

Kaìju1 votes

I agree, bu what could it give?

Winterwings1 votes

I've been suggesting that Ardent should give Adaptive AD or AP instead of Attack Speed and On hit damage, but all that fell on deaf ears...


And please get rid of the "Caster gains benefit too" part, it's such a noob trap, since Enchanters mostly dont have quick and smooth auto animations as marksmen do so trying to make use of this will mostly get you killed a large portion of the time...

Paroe2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azure Northwing,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0WpXlrOE,comment-id=000a00000001,timestamp=2017-10-20T04:01:55.619+0000)

I've been suggesting that Ardent should give Adaptive AD or AP instead of Attack Speed and On hit damage, but all that fell on deaf ears...


And please get rid of the "Caster gains benefit too" part, it's such a noob trap, since Enchanters mostly dont have quick and smooth auto animations as marksmen do so trying to make use of this will mostly get you killed a large portion of the time...

Actually if it were adaptive we could have it scale with AP. Im thinking 5-10increased AD/10-20 increased AP+0.1AP +15-30% attack speed.

As it is now the item is back to being a last buy... Because newsflash; it wasnt the item that made enchanter supports good, its the ADCs that have made them good. Enchanters are ALWAYS, with no exceptions, tied to their carry. When carries are strong, so are the enchanters.

Meep Man8 votes

Gutting is never a good thing.

Zerdun4 votes

Which is why I recommended sticking the level scaling on it FIRST to test it. Because items that scale with level generally are either OP or UP and its very very easy to tell which quickly. An example of this is the lethality changes - riot screwed up with them a handful of times (scaling on enemy level anyone) but balanced them properly over a few patches because those shiny lethality items were either jank or too strong.

When an item is overpowered it is fine to nerf it. That is what riot did in the past patch with censer (removing sustain and providing more damage on a trade). This pulls a ton of lane power out of it because it removes sustain which is INTEGRAL to the first 10-15 minutes. But with the current power levels it is still currently pushing non enchanter based supports, which is not a good thing. The singular change toward it scaling with level can potentially fix that which is my point.

You just don't deliberately drop the power level to the point where over night you change the obviously defining item of an enchanter styled support into to another less thematic one their your defining item got Ohmwrecker'ed. The Current incarnation of Censer seems to provide the right stats they were looking for they but clearly just need a number tweak.

The item in its current iteration is strong. I would have to be blind to not be able to tell that. That is not what I am concerned with. My concern stems from how they is effectively a double nerf. It guts the power it has early game by a lot as well as giving it a late game nerf as well. This change makes it appear as near useless pick instead of an enchanter support's 'defining' item.

If this nerf turns out to be too much - like I expect it to - considering how huge the overall change is. These Enchanter supports will simply revert to Locket + Redemption rushes for those supports isn't that SO EXCITING? rolls eyes

As it stands I literally buy the same crap on all my supports no matter how they actually do their supporting. Its been that way since way BEFORE ardent was created. There is very little variability on what is good vs what is really good.

Before the Ardent Censer meta it was the rush redemption meta because of how over tuned it was and possibly still is. Before that supports rushed locket. Until there's proper scaling that gives each items pros and cons based on your support archetype supports players will just simply pick the 6 best items for them to do their job because there is no other choice. I get the same utility as every other support out of every item so why wouldn't i pick the best options?

The meta is LITERALLY CHANGING in like 3 weeks. I'm terribly sorry you cant stand the current meta. I agree it can be quite frustrating to play a game where one player is the make or break for the game no matter what. Might I suggest you go outside and take a walk or play a different game for a handful of days instead? The crap on the PTR already has the runes / masteries changes on it. Hence why I said that i felt a more measured test and see SHOULD have been taken instead of what they did.

The current season ends Nov. 7th so we can expect that the 8th will have all the shiny new changes. if you need to worry about LP dropping your ranking you can always choose to play the minimum amount of games needed to not lose your ranked position. Its only three weeks and there are TONS of good games out there that are just as good if not better than League.

Dessem3 votes

As Leona you can take Stoneborn Pact, because it'll proc Ardent Censer when people heal off of your stuns and slows. :^)

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Only thing truly gutted on the item is the onhit damage and the early atk speed.

Late game you won't notice too much of a difference.

Also why can't we reach that sweet spot?

It's always broken or garbage with a lot of items I notice.

Jaspers2 votes

I don't think it's enough. I've been building it on Nami long since before the 7.2 changes. The item was seen as bad compared to Redemption, so it was buffed buff but it never was bad.

Even these new changes in recent patches, it gives attack speed to me the support now? Why? I don't need attack speed, I'm the support.

Here's an idea, remove the attack speed bonus for the caster, make it 20% flat attack speed boost, no scaling and remove the on hit magic damage, up the mana regen to 100% so it benefits the support, not the ADC.

I'll still build it on Nami because I want the AP, mana regen and movement bonus even if it's a crap item.

Entheos Geon2 votes

Certain Ardent users want attack speed. Kayle, Lulu, and now Janna all have on-hit damage that benefits from attack speed. Just because that part of the functionality is only attractive to a niche few doesn't mean it should be removed. Plus it rewards supports for being actively aggressive in lane, instead of just sitting back in lane and healing/shielding.

Daedric Etwahl1 votes

Doesn't look like a gutting to me. Gutting would be turning it into a second Ohmwrecker.

I'll still build it on Sona, definitely, but I love how I don't have to rush it anymore or get yelled at. I want my early Tear, baby.

Shuyin1782 votes

That's perfectly fine, no item should ever be mandatory. It should be an item people buy because they feel like it, not because they get pressured by every other player.

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