It's not just "more than KDA", champion grading simply sucks.

Dr Poro·Aug 30, 2016·5 votes·852 views

I'm sure it's decently accurate on solo lanes but as support or in game modes like ARAM or hexakill, the grading is way off because of the CS factor in the calculations. For example my latest game.

An enemy went afk on lvl 2 so their team asked us to push mid and so we did. Result? Everyone in my team gets S- or S, except for the support, who gets B. Why? Because the support didn't get CS.

http://imgur.com/xiQlqaZ

I even went B to get sightstone to place more wards, a pink ward and red trinket. I shielded nearly every hit that my teammates received from poke or turret shots and I had the 3rd most damage dealt to champions.

Now my point isn't that I should've gotten S. Imo no one should get S in a game with an early afker. But why such a discrepancy between scores without any explanation besides the lack of CS on a support?

20 Comments

I hate my ADCAug 30, 20164 votes

Because they compare supports with other supports and only the selfish supports get the highest grades since they end up with more cash, more CS, more kills, more everything from stealing kills and CS off of everyone. Especially when it comes to Karma who is a damage support. Lots of people play her to "carry" without care for what the support role actually means.

That's why I get plenty of easy S and S+ with Taliyah and Sona in normals but getting an S with Janna? Yeah forget about it.

Mysticman89Aug 31, 20161 votes

Grades are compared to others on the same champion in the same role, so if you're getting bad grades on janna, it just means you're doing worse than other jannas, not that janna is harder because she does less damage than some other support options. I personally get pretty consistent S grades as janna myself.

That said, in alternative game modes, roles get a little more murky (there isn't necessarily a 'support' in ARAM for example), so the grades in non-vanilla SR are probably a bit wonky. That said though, since you can only earn mastery tokens in SR anyway, it doesn't really matter that much. (The S grade chests don't take 'that' long to grind out if you just spam the champ until you happen to have a stompy match even if you're not actually that amazing.)

I hate my ADCAug 31, 20162 votes

It doesn't mean I'm doing worse than other Jannas. It means the grading system consider the wrong things when it comes to support Janna.

Kill stealing, taking CS, using shields on yourself to pad your damage and other kind of crap like that is considered a better grade than actually playing the way Janna is meant to be played. Just like using her ult to heal instead of using it to disengage or set up a fight gives a better grade because you have a higher healing done stat.

That's why Support have a hard time getting good grades. Because Support isn't black and white like every other lanes where you got to: farm gold and CS. A Support has to farm gold for his team, not himself. And that's why the grade system is flawed when it comes to support because the Grading system frown upon selflessness. It's all about being the biggest selfish prick ever or get fed and power carry the game.

Mysticman89Aug 31, 20162 votes

Considering I regularly get S's on janna and rarely take kills/cs or shield myself, and almost exclusively use my ult for quick peel rather than healing, I'm either such a complete Janna god that I manage S grades despite doing it via inefficient methods (and if your theory is accurate I'd be one of the best jannas ever in terms of the grading system if I did start doing as you describe), or the grading system is smarter than you're giving it credit for. I'm a pretty decent Janna, but I don't think I'm that good.

I really feel like the issue a lot of supports have is they think it's based on whatever selfish criteria, and then end up lacking in whatever areas it really is taking into account. Alternatively, people feel like they did great in some areas that'd be good by other roles standards, but aren't actually that amazing by support standards (e.g. many supports won't be focused in fights, so legitimately having no deaths [or only 1 or 2] is a much more realistic scenario than on a carry, who even if they have a 10+ kda may still have a half dozen deaths.)

Certainly it'd be nice if they could be more transparent in the areas you were strong/weak in (as they've indicated they would like to do), if/when that comes to pass we might get some more insights on what matters, but as long as there are people getting consistent S grades playing support 'properly', I'm skeptical of the system being fundamentally flawed.

I hate my ADCAug 31, 20162 votes

And I'm skeptical about the veracity of your claims to getting S regularly on Janna. I got a lot of S and S-, some rare occasional S+ on Janna, after all, I did play her a lot, but they aren't as regular as I get them on supports like Sona. On Sona, if my team win the game, it's rare that I get anything below S- and even in a lost game I sometimes get S- or even S. And I'm not even kill stealing on Sona, just because I play the scaling build more often than not and pump out more damage and healing than the regular Sona.

The system is flawed, just look at the guy screenshot and tell me how that isn't flawed? Everyone on his team getting an S or S- and he gets a B? Why is that? What did the guy do fundamentally wrong that a complete stomp like that didn't at least award him an A+? That's just one example of many. Look at this old screenshot of mine from back when champion mastery was kinda new: http://i.imgur.com/y09I77V.png 71% kill participation, perfect KDA, 21% of all placed wards (including enemy wards) in the game with the most wards destroyed too... Do you honestly think this is only worth an A+?

Dr PoroAug 31, 20161 votes

I bet corki received an S in that game.

I hate my ADCAug 31, 20161 votes

Of course he did, pretty sure my entire team had at least S- or higher that game. But that was a while ago, not sure if they patched anything regarding the grading system in between now and then but it sure doesn't seem to have change for the better when it comes to support.

Sightless66Aug 31, 20161 votes

They actually specifically changed the support algorithm to stop kills from being valued higher than assists (it was maybe a month or two ago, they made a big deal about how they agreed that the algorithm wasn't very fair), but otherwise I generally agree with your arguments. It's pretty easy to have a support playing very well who gets a lousy grade because the system doesn't value the proper actions.

I hate my ADCAug 31, 20162 votes

I already know that. But it doesn't change the fact that a kill is worth more gold than an assist. More gold means more items. More items mean more damage and healing. More damage and healing means better grade. It also means an earlier sightstone, more pink wards, etc.

ErockandrollAug 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Grades are compared to others on the same champion in the same role, so if you're getting bad grades on janna, it just means you're doing worse than other jannas, not that janna is harder because she does less damage than some other support options. I personally get pretty consistent S grades as janna myself.

That said, in alternative game modes, roles get a little more murky (there isn't necessarily a 'support' in ARAM for example), so the grades in non-vanilla SR are probably a bit wonky. That said though, since you can only earn mastery tokens in SR anyway, it doesn't really matter that much. (The S grade chests don't take 'that' long to grind out if you just spam the champ until you happen to have a stompy match even if you're not actually that amazing.)

Are you sure "Role" takes into account? Karma can both Support and Mid. And if Support Karma is getting lumped in with Mid lane. The Mid lane Karma would have set an incredibly high Bar, for those trying to get S playing her support. I'm a Support main who have been playing Karma. And I still struggle to get that S rank.

For other game modes, Part of that wonkyness I think comes from the point scoring system, used in the really weird games like DND or Ascension. I actually got 2 S ranks in ARAM, but I still had the best CS and the Highest gold in those games. (Hint: make use of the Support items. FQC comes in real handy if you want extra gold.) And in Hexakill, I've had pretty good luck, playing Battle mages and Juggernauts.

Mysticman89Aug 31, 20161 votes

Yes it's been confirmed by riot that it takes into account role (your actual role too; it doesn't care what role you were assigned in champ select and instead figures it out based on gameplay). It's in the mastery FAQ.

As such, support karma and mid karma are not graded against one another, only support karams against other support karmqs, and mid karms compared to other mid karmas. (Also, elo is not a factor in grading, so particularly high skill cap champions can have some pretty lofty bars for the highest grades.)

cinomenapplebaeAug 30, 20162 votes

no boots maybe

DrackolusAug 30, 20161 votes

Despite having great scores and outhealing pretty much every Soraka I see when I play as Nami, I haven't gotten an S for over a month - and she's been in my top 3 since the day she was released. Meanwhile, I get S in the majority of my Soraka games... but I'm actually really good =P

XIII VanitasAug 30, 20161 votes

Kills and assists should definitely be regarded by the system in the same manner and have the same weight on the final score.

JbelsAug 31, 20161 votes

Your kill participation is very low compared to the team KDA

Dr PoroAug 31, 20161 votes

Okay, that explains Lucian and Malz getting S-. Thanks for your input.

JbelsAug 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gRE3cye6,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-08-31T12:52:40.025+0000)

Okay, that explains Lucian and Malz getting S-. Thanks for your input.

It could be any number of factors. It could be your final gold, wards placed/swept. Karma is played as a mid as well, so it might be counting that 1 CS heavily against you

Dr PoroAug 31, 20161 votes

Roles are supposed to be taken into consideration. Support karmas will not be compared with mid or top karmas. They are different pools. As for warding, the only one that outdid me was their Sona with 37 troll wards while my wards were all placed in brushes or 'tactical places' as Riot said was an important factor to prevent ward spam abuse.

http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUW1/2821181495/36603236?tab=stats

The point here is not to find a reason as to why this happened, but do you think it's fair that with similar stats (except cs), all players that are not support get S- and above while the support gets B? I think it should be around A for everyone, except Gnar who did really well in his lane.

JbelsAug 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gRE3cye6,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-31T16:48:07.180+0000)

Roles are supposed to be taken into consideration. Support karmas will not be compared with mid or top karmas. They are different pools. As for warding, the only one that outdid me was their Sona with 37 troll wards while my wards were all placed in brushes or 'tactical places' as Riot said was an important factor to prevent ward spam abuse.

http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUW1/2821181495/36603236?tab=stats

The point here is not to find a reason as to why this happened, but do you think it's fair that with similar stats (except cs), all players that are not support get S- and above while the support gets B? I think it should be around A for everyone, except Gnar who did really well in his lane.

I mean, assuming Riot gives a damn about what's fair