"Ashe is fine" / Please tell me how she compares at all to the other ADCs

darkdill·Mar 5, 2015·11 votes·2,034 views

Utility? Nope, Kalista has her beat in that department. Kalista kites better, her scouting is better, and she can save her Soulbound's life with her ultimate or throw them for a powerful knock-up effect, which isn't removeable by Mikael's Crucible. Oh, and Kalista doesn't sacrifice damage for her utility!

Range? Lol, Caitlyn, Kog'Maw, and Tristana beat her at that.

Slowing power? Doesn't work anymore; 80% of the roster either gap-closes her or can shoot her back from a distance.

Income bonus? Tell me when you've ever seen an Ashe get more money out of Hawkshot than Draven gets out of his passive.

Late-game power? Not as good as Jinx or Tristana.

Tell me where she's "fine" in all this.

38 Comments

disregardableMar 5, 201510 votes

Kalista has the worst vision ability in the entire game, and AOE stuns can also be used to initiate or save teammates. They even help someone that isn't the support. Kalista doesn't lose all in damage for her utility, but she absolutely can't outharass Ashe's W and passive. Of course let's not forget that Kalista is completely useless with whatever first item she decides to start with, unlike Ashe who can just start IE and be fine. Not to mention if they both farm perfectly, Ashe will gain around 100 gold advantage every 5 minutes, which only makes their item damage disparity even WORSE.

And if you actually want to use her slow to slow it has a giant 12 second cooldown.

I'm sorry if you can't play Ashe properly, but she counters Kalista.

DJ Di0Mar 5, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gQh47Lkm,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-03-05T04:24:47.949+0000)

Kalista has the worst vision ability in the entire game, and AOE stuns can also be used to initiate or save teammates. They even help someone that isn't the support. Kalista doesn't lose all in damage, but she absolutely can't outharass Ashe's W and passive. Of course let's not forget that Kalista is completely useless with whatever first item she decides to start with, unlike Ashe who can just start IE and be fine. Not to mention if they both farm perfectly, Ashe will have a gold around 100 gold advantage every 5 minutes, which only makes their item damage disparity even WORSE.

I'm sorry you can't play Ashe properly, but she counters Kalista.

In what way does Kalista have a bad vision ability...?

disregardableMar 5, 20153 votes

The part where it provides approximately 3 units of vision only in front of it, can be completely avoided, and can be prematurely ended by your enemies in 2 AAs without even letting you know.

I mean it's nice that it shrieks if by some miracle an enemy gets caught, I guess? That's the only good part about it.

darkdillMar 5, 20156 votes

Ashe can only use her scouting to look at an area for a few seconds on a long cooldown. Kalista can set up her shades to patrol narrow corridors, preventing enemies from using them. Besides, if you see one of your shades die prematurely, that tells you someone is there, even if the shade didn't see it. You just need to be paying attention to the minimap.

disregardableMar 5, 20152 votes

It doesn't really prevent enemies from using them if they just wait for it to turn around and then kill it. I'm just saying when your vision ability is less useful than the free wards, maybe it's not that good.

By the way, its CD is also incredibly long. Less long than Ashe's if you have 2 charges, yeah, but 30 seconds is not short and its recharge time is longer than Ashe's at all ranks. I'd go so far as to say it's "even".

IcyPepperMar 5, 20151 votes

If you're warding properly, you'll see the ghosts patrolling. It makes it ridiculously easy to just sneak up behind them and aa them twice.

Notice I said warding. Vision to beat vision.

flibitydooMar 5, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Di0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gQh47Lkm,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-03-05T04:29:43.030+0000)

In what way does Kalista have a bad vision ability...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlM-ugG84YM

her scouting is terrible compared to ashe. Ashe's hawkshot has superior range, a much larger aoe, and is far more practical for checking bushes than the slow moving sentinels.

and it's basically a free +10 gold for the enemy team when cast.

GigglebytesMar 5, 20151 votes

That video is hilarious

KaisadiIIaMar 5, 20157 votes

I'm sorry if you can't play Ashe properly, but she counters Kalista.

That doesn't make her better. Even Urgot is a counterpick to some powerful champions.

disregardableMar 5, 20152 votes

Never said it did. It just pisses me off every time someone compares Kalista to Ashe in a favorable light, because Ashe works very well against her.

Knight SoIaire Mar 5, 20151 votes

they are both compared insanely often becuase they are both utility adc's

but i dont know man if ashe counters her early game aoe poke will be hard in kalista mid game she cant allow ashe to ult her

but in late game she can get that mercurical scimitar if she gets engaged on

so while this might fawour ashe, i think that its the kalista who holds the finger on the trigger here and she has the owerall controll ower the fight

ThePlasticSporkMar 5, 20157 votes

People have been crying about how weak Ashe is for the longest time when, in reality, she IS fine and the only thing that needs changing is her rather worthless passive.

The exact post you just made has been getting made for what seems like centuries, just with different ADCs shuffled around to compare her to. These exact posts were being made back before C9 showed up and started using her. Guess what? Even despite everyone QQing about how shitty she was, a competitive team shows up and proceeds to dominate with a supposedly shitty ADC. She hasn't suffered any nerfs since then.

Kalista's utility is NOT superior to Ashe's. This is just an example of the boards habit of exaggerating everything to make their own points, but no. Kalista's ult doesn't have nearly as much range as Ashe's ult, and it takes 2 people for Kalista to use her ult. Kalista does not have a perma slow. It's rather easy for a champion to stay out of Kalista's scouting ghost vision range. At worst, it might force a ganking jungler to take a longer way around. Kalista has better mobility and better damage, but her utility is not better.

Caitlyn, Kog, Trist, and Twitch beat every ADC in the range department. This is a strength that is specific to those champions, and not a weakness specific to Ashe. Graves loses in range to them, as do Sivir and Jinx. Lo and behold, Graves, Sivir, and Jinx are all insanely strong. Notably, every single one of these champions with huge range were around back when C9 was dominating with Ashe. Obviously that didn't matter.

Her slows are not useless. Not as useful as they once were, but if Ashe's team has an advantage, whatever target she's hitting is fucked. It's pretty easy for Ashe's team to get an advantage considering she has a method of initiating fights on her own. The only other ADC capable of doing so is Varus, and his doesn't have nearly as much range and it's CC is weaker.

If you've ever seen a Draven come out of lane with 0 kills or maybe even only 1 kill, Ashe would have had a bigger gold bonus. Ashe does not need to get kills to get her extra gold - Draven does.

Her late game power is not as good as Jinx and Tristana if you're measuring power solely in terms of DPS. Ashe's ult goes a long way towards winning teamfights, and is excellent for forcing disadvantageous fights on the enemy team. Neither Trist nor Jinx are capable of doing so.

Where is she fine? She probably has one of the most powerful ultimates of all of the ADCs, and one of the most powerful ultimates in general. If you could take any other ADCs ultimate and replace it with Ashe's, you can damn well bet I would do it. If I could, I would replace Graves ult with Ashe ult, Jinx ult with Ashe ult, Trist ult with Ashe ult, Cait ult with Ashe ult, etc etc etc. If her team has an advantage, it is very hard for the enemy team to recover because Ashe is excellent at forcing disadvantageous fights and getting picks - NO other carry in the game matches Ashe for engage potential, and currently the only other champions with perma slows built in are Olaf and Nunu off the top of my head. Ranged perma slows are insanely powerful, and once a champion with a gap closer gets in your face, who would you rather be at the end of the day? Kog or Ashe? Hell, Ashe has better defense mechanisms than even Jinx does. Ashe has an on demand stun that stops gap closers - Jinx does not. Once gap closers are over, Ashe can create distance between her and her target with her slows, Jinx cannot.

Ashe is fine. If anything, give her a better passive, but that's it.

darkdillMar 5, 20151 votes

I'd also give her a modified Q. Permaslows on Ashe aren't worthwhile anymore, and if anything break the "toxic gameplay" rule. One tap from Ashe, you're slowed, and either it completely immobilizes you (i.e. Udyr, Trundle, Skarner) or doesn't do jack shit (i.e. Riven, Jax, Yasuo). Too binary.

It differs from Nunu and Olaf because Ashe's permaslow is on long-range basic attacks, so it's required to be a lot weaker. Nunu has to spend a boatload of mana and stay in close-range of his target to keep up the slow, while Olaf has to continuously land skill-shots. Ashe, on the other hand, applies her slow much more easily, so it has to be sucky.

I'd much prefer it if Ashe's slow were less frequent, but had more power.

BTW, Ashe usually dies instantly to a gap-closer, so she doesn't get to kite afterwards anyways.

Oh, and that ult of hers? Negated completely by Mikael's Crucible.

CindikleMar 5, 20154 votes

There's a reason C9 used her a lot. She has a lot of power.

The reason she is weaker is because the supports she did well with are weaker. Mainly those who can follow up her CC. Zyra and Nami are great at this. Zyra got pushed out when engage supports took over. Nami does well but engage supports will still win vs Ashe.

SmokingPuffinMar 5, 20153 votes

Ashe is the only ADC with global ranged teamfight initiation. That's a really, really strong ability.

The other big thing she has is 1200 range poke on a 4 second cooldown. Very good for objective fights.

BakedLotionMar 5, 20152 votes

They just need to make her passive something like When an enemy has been slowed 5x by Ashe's Q, they get snared for 1 second and deal bonus X damage Gives her decent cc, and a bit more damage ( dont put too much damage though) Can also add a downtime so they dont get perma snared.

Hard PenetratorMar 5, 20152 votes

Ashe main problem is that she can't really kill anybody till late game. She racks up tons of assists and scale at slower rate. It feels bad when you do so much, hit your things, kite ppl, grant vision and your score is 2/5/18.

I would blame her E because other vision skills are actually granting some dmg. Passive is also unreliable.

EadromarchMar 5, 20151 votes

Ashe honestly only has a permaslow compared to other adcs other then that she is outclassed by all other adcs including jinx which has arguably better cc for kiting then ashe.

darkdillMar 5, 20154 votes

That permaslow, I feel, is exactly why Ashe sucks. Riot thinks it's too powerful, when in reality it's absolute horse-shit.

I'd gladly trade away the permaslow for a stronger, but less frequent slow.

BeatzBoyFTWMar 5, 20151 votes

Urgot She has range Urgot

darkdillMar 5, 20151 votes

Urgot has defense and a suppression attack, as well as a lock-on capable long-range spammable skill-shot.

BeatzBoyFTWMar 5, 20151 votes

And he has a lower winrate than Ashe does.

Now you would say "winrates dont matter", but for some reason, people takes it seriously when Lee has 47% and not deserves to have any nerfs cz of it.

EadromarchMar 5, 20151 votes

Honestly I rather have them switch Ashe's current passive for her q then have a new ability for her q. Then add a snare onto her w and make e reduce damage in an area by 5/10/15/20/25% then possibly make the q a dash or something

DJ Di0Mar 5, 20151 votes

She has a 51% winrate so obviously she's fine, amiright?

darkdillMar 5, 20152 votes

Win-rate is irrelevant when her pick-rate is absolutely crap.

IcyPepperMar 5, 20151 votes

LeeSin Someone called about pick rates?

RogueWillMar 5, 20151 votes

Ashe is a average "safe"pick. There is really nothing she excel at but there is really nothing she is really bad at. She is constant most of the game and probably is good for a beginner. She is an easy champion to learn and play and pretty straight forward (you only have one damaging ability). Players that play ashe either A. Main her or B. don't adc often and want an easy champ so they dont fed.

BonusMar 5, 20151 votes

You greatly underestimate her staying power throughout the game. Ashe in late game is 100% more terrifying than trist or jinx, because she doesn't NEED a dash or movement steroid to kite you. With one auto, she sets up a kite that lasts until your dead, or she gets 2v1'd. Her passive is extremely powerful for poke early, and late game she starts teamfights strong. She gets an automatic gold advantage in farm, and her w is a powerful poke tool. In addition, many people look at her ult as just CC, but it nearly as much damage as comparable ADC ults on top of its stun. Her E allows for better vision than kalista's, as it can go MUCH MUCH further, as well as be unaffected by terrain.

I won't say shes the strongest ADC, but shes far from the weakest.

TanadrisMar 5, 20151 votes

I do believe Ashe needs a more interactive usage of her E, like a CD reduction per unit killed or something, but she has the power to outduel ADC's by rightclicking because of her passive, which is why I believe she is more powerful than a lot of them. The damage she puts out on first hit is intimidating. What I would LIKE to see on Ashe is her passive refresh without increasing Crit chance to 100. So every 10/8/6/4 seconds she gets a free crit, or something along that line, although this could be abused in the early game, having a long CD early and then lowering it drastically per 6 levels would really balance it out imo.

ModWulf HelhammerMar 5, 20152 votes

One way that her passive could be fixed would just have it not trigger on minions. It still wouldn't charge if you were AA minions, but the crit only activates when you hit a champ

ApplyForAGrantMar 5, 20151 votes

Ashe's only advantage I can think of is her utility being global, and the duration of cc is much longer (up to 3 seconds) compare to Kalista ult. That obviously does not make up for all the other departments she lacks in of course.

Champion SkinMar 5, 20151 votes

However... there is the fact that stuns are weaker then knock ups Because knock ups can't be cleansed/Crucible/QSS And knock ups aren't reduced by tenacity