The Big Five (And why they're proof the game is poorly balanced.)

Zero Shingetsu··3 votes·1,329 views

There are a handful of champions I see frequently, and I almost never see them beneath M7. Remember, M7 is supposed to be tricky. It's supposed to be a bit of a grind; proof that you really have your ducks in a row with a champion. I know people will say "Nah, it just means you've played them a lot," but no. It doesn't. You can achieve M4 that way. To achieve M7 that way requires a great deal of luck. Or... at least it should.

Master Yi. Garen. Zed. Yasuo. Darius.

Pay attention as you play and see, in games where these champions show up, what percentage of the players aren't M7 with them.

By logical extension, we can presume that "Almost anyone can succeed with these champions with little effort or practice." After all, if 80 out of 100 people cleared The Unbeatable Bansuke, it wouldn't be very unbeatable, would it?

Thus we come to this statement: If almost everyone can attain M7 on these champions with little effort, why have they not been rebalanced? They haven't even been power crept. Riot literally keeps buffing some of these (Yi...) to keep their relative power level solid amidst a changing game.

At what point do we say enough's enough and put our foot down about how poisonous this is for the competitive nature of the game?

Here are some brief, off-to-top-of-my-head rework ideas that could fix a lot of this.

Master Yi

  • Alpha Strike is now triggered on basic attack.
  • Alternatively, Alpha Strike is now a skillshot, hitting each enemy in the path of the skillshot at cast in turn. He reappears on the last enemy hit.
  • Highlander. First, change its name. I know "Highlander" technically refers to anyone from elevated lands, but this boy's no Celt. Second, bonus attack speed climbs per hit and resets after 2 seconds of not hitting anything with basic attacks.
  • Alternatively, bonus AD is reduced to 60/65/70% while active.
  • Alternatively, bonus AD is reduced to 25/30/35%, but is converted to true damage.

Garen

  • Judgment can no longer be canceled, forcing Garen to pick his moment to spin.
  • Judgment scales with AP instead of AD. This forces Garen to decide if he'll get basic attack or spin damage.
  • Demacian Justice now activates on the next basic attack within 8 seconds, instead of on target.

Zed

  • Abilities mimicked by Zed's shadow now deal only 25% damage, but deal it as true damage.
  • Shadow Slash no longer slows, instead stunning of 0.5 seconds.
  • Death Mark changes:
  • First Cast: Zed launches along the path of a skillshot and marks the first enemy hit. If no enemies are hit, Death Mark can still be recast within 5 seconds, but will trigger the first cast effect instead of the second cast effect. The second cast effect thus won't trigger at all.
  • Second Cast: Zed becomes invisible for 2 seconds. Attacking, taking damage, and casting abilities do not break this invisibility, but true sight penetrates.

Yasuo

  • If Steel Tempest hits no enemies, its cooldown is set to 9 seconds.
  • Gathering Storm knockup time is cut in half, forcing Yasuo to think fast as to whether or not he intends to capitalize.
  • Wind Wall becomes Squall Stroke: Yasuo slashes horizontally, creating a line of wind for 0.2 seconds. The length still scales with level. The wind deals no damage, but blasts enemies it directly touches back 50/100/200/400/600 units and deflects projectiles similarly. Slashed skillshots "switch sides" for Yasuo's team and bounce straight back, dealing half their original damage to any enemies affected and applying any other on-hit effects they would have applied based on the original champion's effects.
  • Sweeping Blade cooldown becomes 1/0.8/0.6/0.4/0.2 seconds if a minion is hit, or 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 seconds if a champion is hit.

Darius

  • Hemorrhage no longer scales with AD, but the bleed is applied as true damage.
  • Apprehend no longer slows. Why does Darius need two slows?
  • Noxian Guillotine recast is reduced to 5 seconds, and at rank 3, becomes 10 seconds.

14 Comments

Frosted Tips7 votes

Reading Yasuo ideas and see that you purely gutted him with no compensation buffs is hilarious. He would have a 30% win rate if that happened to him if that.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gPYJkngH,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-10T22:19:28.650+0000)

Reading Yasuo ideas and see that you purely gutted him with no compensation buffs is hilarious. He would have a 30% win rate if that happened to him if that.

I didn't gut him, I made him more of the "ronin" he's meant to be. Like actual kenjutsu, Yasuo now rewards stride, timing and precision. He's more or less the same as he's always been, he simply needs to find a rhythm and not miss his Q now. Also, deflecting Jinx's ult at the enemy is a fairly sizable buff, I'd say.

Frosted Tips5 votes

You nerfed every spell excluding his ultimate and didn't compensate him or atleast say "look into his base stats because of all the nerfs I did to him." What you suggest is a gut.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gPYJkngH,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T22:27:08.681+0000)

You nerfed every spell excluding his ultimate and didn't compensate him or atleast say "look into his base stats because of all the nerfs I did to him." What you suggest is a gut.

The stats are the same as ever. I tweaked how they're used.

His Q is exactly the same ability, except that if he doesn't hit anything (including minions or monsters) with it, his stride his broken and he has to wait for a longer cooldown. The knockup is shorter, again, the force him to commit to his decisions. The duration is still plenty long to ult in on it.

His W is now stronger than before, but requires precise timing to get the most out of it.

Rather than just dancing through every enemy champion and dominating 5v1 because he can't be hit before he obliterates everyone, he has to carefully wind up his E and choose which enemy champion to apply the big bonus to before committing to the fight. Further, he has to COMMIT to the fight when he goes in, he can't just dash back out scot-free.

His ult, as you say, is unchanged.

I can only presume you're a Yasuo main (or at least a frequent player), and if you have a problem with having to time your abilities and pick your windows with a champion whose greatest strengths are his burst and mobility, that might speak volumes to my point.

Frosted Tips4 votes

So in short;

Q nerf

W power shift, but overall nerf

E nerf

Ultimate identical

Asud1 votes

Q skill required increase not a nerf in damage but in ways of how easy it is W again better in short fights if necessary cant deflect 3 enemy champions for 5 seconds which isnt normal to begin with E maybe overdone R just fine Now why are all these good Well because Yasuo is overpowered champion. I play him so i should know. If he doesnt get camped by the jungler he will auto win lane which is kinda unfair considering he also outscales every other champion played in that lane. He has no resource, no cooldowns on 2 basic spells, way too good sustain in lane and way too good waveclear. Many of these things need attending to. One way would be giving him energy. Better way would be removing one of his 2 passives and im guessing you know which one is the issue for mid lane i dont know how but he should be forced out of the mid lane into the top where he belongs.

Frosted Tips4 votes

Well because Yasuo is overpowered champion.

He isn't

If he doesnt get camped by the jungler he will auto win lane which is kinda unfair considering he also outscales every other champion played in that lane.

He is played in 3 lanes with relative frequency and he does not out scale all champions in all lanes.

He has no resource, no cooldowns on 2 basic spells, way too good sustain in lane and way too good waveclear.

Ok and he is balanced around that, and they both have cooldowns just very spamable, and now the sustain is due to runes offering way too much sustain. This is not a Yasuo problem, but a rune problem. He has no inherit sustain.

i dont know how but he should be forced out of the mid lane into the top where he belongs.

He was traditionally designed as a midlaner so idk if I agree with forcing him top.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gPYJkngH,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T23:17:03.466+0000)

He isn't

He is played in 3 lanes with relative frequency and he does not out scale all champions in all lanes.

Ok and he is balanced around that, and they both have cooldowns just very spamable, and now the sustain is due to runes offering way too much sustain. This is not a Yasuo problem, but a rune problem. He has no inherit sustain.

Except he's not balanced. My changes to his Q and E were an attempt at gaining that balance. Please explain how being able to jump straight down a minion line and catch literally any champion fleeing to their turret without fail, how being able to launch between five champions in 3 seconds and make himself impossible to hit during that streak, how being able to stab out AD + 120 damage that procs and crits every 1.33 seconds, how being able to charge for knockup in the span of 4 seconds after just missing said knockup, all without resources, is "balancing around" not having a resource.

Katarina is balanced around not having a resource. She needs to be proactive and make her ability uses and positioning count if she wants shorter cooldowns. If she makes a mistake, she gets one good chance to escape or she's toast, and she has to wait a reasonable amount of time for cooldowns.

Riven, Shyvana, and others have a measurable cooldown between their abilities that opponents can mentally track and exploit to break their rhythm and find openings.

Yasuo has none of these things (W aside), and puts out obscene amounts of damage besides. I'm sorry, brother, but that is not what balance looks like.

Frosted Tips3 votes

He has abysmal base stats and is forced to build full glass cannon early. Also he can't chase people into river, so instead of running to your turret directly try running away from minions. Also his dash is a set distance so you know exactly where he is forced to go so he is semi predictable.

Katarina has a blink instead of a dash which is also longer range and can be used on allies.

Shyvana is a garbage champion that is on the tier 1 list for a VGU so using her as an example is pointless.

Did you know that Riven has a stronger shield then Yasuo that is also on a lower cooldown than his and it is a dash that does not require minions. Yasuo is balanced, but annoying and people will complain about him even if he is gutted.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gPYJkngH,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T22:39:55.752+0000)

So in short;

Q nerf

Q rebalance. If you're good with it (rewarding player skill; again, that's the point of these ideas), there's literally no change at all. Even if you're not, 9 seconds isn't so horrible.

W power shift, but overall nerf

Explain to me how being able to turn Caitlyn's ult back on her is a nerf again...?

E nerf

This one is arguably a nerf, because it extends the time between casts. I'll give you this one.

Ultimate identical

Correct.

Frosted Tips2 votes

Q - If you miss once you garauntee lose your stacks which is a huge gut. Also reduced knock up duration which is a direct nerf.

W - Yes knocking back 1-2 abilities is good, but negating all projectiles for 3.75 seconds is so much stronger.

E - Huge nerf when used on a champion.

Zero Shingetsu1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gPYJkngH,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-04-11T00:19:16.193+0000)

Q - If you miss once you garauntee lose your stacks which is a huge gut. Also reduced knock up duration which is a direct nerf.

W - Yes knocking back 1-2 abilities is good, but negating all projectiles for 3.75 seconds is so much stronger.

E - Huge nerf when used on a champion.

Q - Don't miss. Problem solved.

W - So much stronger it makes him invincible. By the time most ranged champions get to the other side, assuming he DOESN'T just E back over, they're already dead. Ranged champions literally can't fight Yasuo at all late.

E - If you like, we can remove the scaling damage increase per use and just set it to the max damage as a flat bonus.

NMG Serina1 votes

With the way grades at the end of game are calculated it is slightly easier to achieve an S rank on some champions compared to others due to their design and the way they are played.

Warpes1 votes

The big ... five? What?..

There's no way this isn't a shitpost.

And after looking at your match history, taking smite/cleanse on every single fucking champ, even lux.. there's no way in hell you're not a troll.

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