Riot is afraid of people perma banning certain champions

Dokkaebi·May 27, 2017·22 votes·795 views

So why not fix those certain champions so they wouldn't get perma banned, instead of worrying about how to make a draft system that avoids perma banning? [slayer-jinx-unamused]

42 Comments

DarkRitualMay 27, 201711 votes

Because Yasuo is balanced, just really annoying. Lee is usually fine too, just annoying to have in games so frequently.

hhaavviikkMay 27, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Because Yasuo is balanced, just really annoying. Lee is usually fine too, just annoying to have in games so frequently.

and champions have been reworked in the past for having a obnoxious play pattern regardless whether they were UP, balanced or OP at the time so no reason not to rework yasuo

GULAG 4 UMay 27, 20172 votes

Eh no, there was never a champion reworked for "being annoying". Poppy was reworked because her entire kit was bullshit. Just read her patch notes history and her old kit. It's fucking insane.

hhaavviikkMay 27, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Eh no, there was never a champion reworked for "being annoying". Poppy was reworked because her entire kit was bullshit. Just read her patch notes history and her old kit. It's fucking insane.

yorick was reworked because he was annoying to play against, he wasn't OP he was just a nightmare in lane much like Yasuo Nidalee was reworked because she was annoying to play against Heimerdinger got reworked because it was annoying to play against him and it just wasn't fun Soraka was reworked because everyone dreaded laning against her because of how dull she made the lane

what these 4 have in common with yasuo is that they weren't overbearing, they were just obnoxious to play against.

then again even if this wasn't the case if a champion that isn't OP reaches perma banned or near perma banned state then you failed in designing a fun champion and shouldn't be allowed to stay, seems like common sense to me

GULAG 4 UMay 28, 20172 votes

yorick was reworked because he was annoying to play against, he wasn't OP he was just a nightmare in lane much like Yasuo

No he wasn't. He did pretty much nothing other than win lane and had multiple problems with his kit, his entire kit was relying on statchecks which is garbage design.

Nidalee was reworked because she was annoying to play against

Don't actually know about this one, but no, riot doesn't rework you for being 'cancer' according to some salty silvers.

Heimerdinger got reworked because it was annoying to play against him and it just wasn't fun

Not true. It was because his playstyle was idiotic and he dumpstered every melee matchup excluding Yasuo and there was nothing you could do.

Soraka was reworked because everyone dreaded laning against her because of how dull she made the lane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6ByjB4j6W4

what these 4 have in common with yasuo is that they weren't overbearing, they were just obnoxious to play against.

Well Nidalee was definitively overbearing and strong before. Yorick was for a short while after release buffs. Heimierdinger wouldn't have been kept trash if he wasn't oppressive before his rework. Refer to video for soraka.

then again even if this wasn't the case if a champion that isn't OP reaches perma banned or near perma banned state then you failed in designing a fun champion and shouldn't be allowed to stay, seems like common sense to me

Maybe because the community actually thinks Yasuo is OP? Banrates reflect your reputation. Anivia, with 54% winrate and 5% playrate, has almost 0 banrate. She is strong as hell, deserves a ban. But she doesn't, because her reputation isn't 'anivia is OP'. It's because people haven't caught on yet.

here are the 3 mains reasons people ban Yasuo;

Cancer. He's annoying. (to them).
Prevent teammates from picking him. (Griefing, which is bannable).
They believe Yasuo is OP.

If you play in the elos where Yasuo is banned, you would know that 2+3 are the most common reasons. Do well on Yasuo in bronze-silver, and in most games there will be salty shits talking about how dysfunctional your brain is.

IF the champion has an 80% banrate, it's not because people actually think he's annoying. It's because people believe he is OP.

ParoeMay 28, 20172 votes

{quoted}

here are the 3 mains reasons people ban Yasuo;

Cancer. He's annoying. (to them).

Prevent teammates from picking him. (Griefing, which is bannable).

They believe Yasuo is OP.

IF the champion has an 80% banrate, it's not because people actually think he's annoying. It's because people believe he is OP.

None of those reasons are entirely true. Theyre all dancing around the real reason. People ban Yasuo Zed Ekko Azir Fiora Gangplank Irelia LeeSin Riven Ryze Xayah Warwick Vayne Taliyah Caitlyn not because theyre broken OP or cancer.

People ban them because theyre frustrating to play against.

Also, many of the "perma banned champions" have a HIGH WIN RATE across all ELOs with a relatively high pick rate. You think lee-sin gets a 48% win rate with a 30% pick rate because hes fun? No, its because he doesnt take as much skill as other champions and has ridiculous numbers along with the best melee mobility in the game.

With the ten ban system its probably likely that lee sin, vayne, yasuo, and fiora will have their bans SKY ROCKET.

GULAG 4 UMay 28, 20171 votes

Actually, during their prime, any people thought they were OP. You still had tons of QQ posts on reddit, social media, here because they were OP. Many youtubers made video too. Of course, it turned out some of those champions were actually overrated (Warick and zed).

No, people don't ban simply beacuse "Cnacer champino".

By this logic, you'd see pantheon and most lanebullies having hilarious high banrates. Pantheon is most definitively ridiculously frustrating to face, is extremely powerful right now and doesn't score a high banrate. It's not because 'He ain't cancer'. It's because right now fiora is super strong (Hard lane for pantheon) and because people haven't realized how busted he is.

ParoeMay 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Actually, during their prime, any people thought they were OP. You still had tons of QQ posts on reddit, social media, here because they were OP. Many youtubers made video too. Of course, it turned out some of those champions were actually overrated (Warick and zed).

No, people don't ban simply beacuse "Cnacer champino".

By this logic, you'd see pantheon and most lanebullies having hilarious high banrates. Pantheon is most definitively ridiculously frustrating to face, is extremely powerful right now and doesn't score a high banrate. It's not because 'He ain't cancer'. It's because right now fiora is super strong (Hard lane for pantheon) and because people haven't realized how busted he is.

Youre missing the entire point. Frustrating AND strong. Pantheon falls off pretty hard and is a snowball powerhouse.
Also, in his prime, zed WAS extremely powerful. Not just frustrating, but powerful. Hes less so now that itemization has changed to favor him less.

once again, it isnt "cancer champ ban ban ban" its "FRUSTRATING CHAMP THAT IS POWERFUL" deserves a ban. STRONG CHAMPIONS WITH HIGH PICK AND WIN RATES deserve a ban because THEY ARE STRONG AND FRUSTRATING TO PLAY AGAINST. There is a reason why yasuo, caitlyn, and lee-sin are some of the most common comfort bans. Its not because theyre cancer. Its because people DONT LIKE TO PLAY AGAINST THEM because they DEMAND SPECIFIC COUNTERPICKS and PLAYSTYLES. No one, i repeat this; NO ONE likes to play against a champion who dictates champion select and necessitates a certain kind of playstyle. Its not fun, its not kosher, and it goes against riots own philosophies regarding such things.

hhaavviikkMay 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No he wasn't. He did pretty much nothing other than win lane and had multiple problems with his kit, his entire kit was relying on statchecks which is garbage design.

Don't actually know about this one, but no, riot doesn't rework you for being 'cancer' according to some salty silvers.

Not true. It was because his playstyle was idiotic and he dumpstered every melee matchup excluding Yasuo and there was nothing you could do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6ByjB4j6W4

Well Nidalee was definitively overbearing and strong before. Yorick was for a short while after release buffs. Heimierdinger wouldn't have been kept trash if he wasn't oppressive before his rework. Refer to video for soraka. you failed in designing a fun champion and shouldn't be allowed to stay, seems like common sense to me

Maybe because the community actually thinks Yasuo is OP? Banrates reflect your reputation. Anivia, with 54% winrate and 5% playrate, has almost 0 banrate. She is strong as hell, deserves a ban. But she doesn't, because her reputation isn't 'anivia is OP'. It's because people haven't caught on yet.

here are the 3 mains reasons people ban Yasuo;

Cancer. He's annoying. (to them).

Prevent teammates from picking him. (Griefing, which is bannable).

They believe Yasuo is OP.

If you play in the elos where Yasuo is banned, you would know that 2+3 are the most common reasons. Do well on Yasuo in bronze-silver, and in most games there will be salty shits talking about how dysfunctional your brain is.

IF the champion has an 80% banrate, it's not because people actually think he's annoying. It's because people believe he is OP.

I've faced old yorick and I've seen ritos stance on him, he wasn't OP, yes he won lane 9/10 but once lane ended he was dead weight and useles but because he was so frustrating to lane against he was still reworked.

heimerdinger dumpstered every melee lane match up? kind of like darius 8/10 times and allot ranged, never the less even if you picked a ranged against heimerdinger you would still be bored out of your mind because he just pushes the wave non stop and that just isn't fun to face

nidalee used to be OP, then her spears got nerfed and then all game long she was just a spear bot, this left the enemy team frustrated as they constantly had to dodge spears all game long which made for a boring game.

I personally don't have a problem laning against yasuo as I don't think he's OP, but he's still bloody frustrating to lane against.

riot has tried to balance around low elo before, just look at yi

GULAG 4 UMay 28, 20171 votes

Yi wasn't nerfed solely because of low elo. In the devourer meta, Yi was the best jungler or maybe 2nd best. He was pretty busted. Yi has pretty much zero counterplay excluding perma ccs- there's nothing to play around or to dodge. Everything is point and click. His kit is ridiculously toxic.

The champions you mentioned were nerfed/reworked not because their gameplay was obnoxious. It's because their gameplay had serious issues- Winning lane and doing nothing is just bad design. It's pretty much fact.

All 4 champions you mentioned were very frustrating to play against. But they weren't reworked solely for that. You are suggesting Yasuo should be reworked solely because he is annoying, but the examples you brought up weren't.

ModAcademy KaynMay 28, 20172 votes

Annoying and Toxic are two different things. Yorick wasn't just annoying, he practically ruled the lane when he was strong. Nidalee just chucked spears from off-screen all day, that'd chunk your HP. Heimerdinger, I might admit, but it's still inherently toxic going against Heimer if you're melee, with no way to shove the lane.

Soraka I'll admit too. Riot doesn't like passive gameplay that stops shit from happening. That said, no champion has ever gotten reworked Solely based on the fact of being annoying. Each of the champs you listed were annoying, but they also had bad gameplay habits and design.

hhaavviikkMay 28, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gKMbRWHB,comment-id=00020000000000000001,timestamp=2017-05-28T08:22:10.902+0000)

Annoying and Toxic are two different things. Yorick wasn't just annoying, he practically ruled the lane when he was strong. Nidalee just chucked spears from off-screen all day, that'd chunk your HP. Heimerdinger, I might admit, but it's still inherently toxic going against Heimer if you're melee, with no way to shove the lane.

Soraka I'll admit too. Riot doesn't like passive gameplay that stops shit from happening. That said, no champion has ever gotten reworked Solely based on the fact of being annoying. Each of the champs you listed were annoying, but they also had bad gameplay habits and design.

the thing is that jayce and darius are almost equally as toxic when you're playing a melee.

could that not also apply to yasuo? pit a ranged who has all of it's abilities blocked by yasuo windwall against him and it's like fighting as a melee vs old heimerdinger, yeah you could survive and not feed him and outscale him that way, but it sure as hell makes the laning annoying and obnoxious to play

ModAcademy KaynMay 28, 20171 votes

Darius has counterplay now, and Jayce's only thing he does well is bully in lane. They're frustrating, but they actually have to put effort into making the lane theirs unlike Heimer and Yorick.

If Yasou got all someone's abilities in Windwall, then that person is terrible and should be punished. It's not uncommon knowledge that Yasou has that tool in his disposal. To a degree, I do think people need to actually learn how to play against him. He's an extreme variant in champion type, and needs to be treated differently.

Yasou also doesn't have his windwall up 24-7 like Heimers Turrets or Old-Yoricks on demand Ghouls

DrCyanideMay 28, 20171 votes

If I panic and throw a stun out the opposite direction of my enemy, I'm punished for it (the enemy isn't stunned, I'm attacked). If Yasuo panics and throws a Wind Wall out in the opposite direction of the projectile, he's rewarded for it (the stun is destroyed regardless).

I, for one, would appreciate it if Yasuo at least had to aim his Wind Wall in my general direction.

A plethora of champions are punished if they activate their ultimate when under the enemy tower. Yasuo is given immunity from punishment for that stupidity, being placed outside of turret range even if the placement makes no sense.

An example someone else shared a while ago: https://plays.tv/video/591367f3eaaddf6103/that-is-bullshit

Nomad SolMay 27, 20173 votes

This meme again. He has one of the best win rates top, he's not balanced.

DarkRitualMay 27, 20171 votes

What is his winrate/playrate top?

GULAG 4 UMay 28, 20171 votes

52% and like 10%. Nerfs on PBE to Q.

Spice POWAHMay 28, 20171 votes

Maybe once the nerfs hit him Yas won't get banned as often, because the q zoning potential is getting nerfed, as it should since TF's W was nerfed for the same reason.

Lee will probably still get banned because of the playrate though.

AmazoXMay 27, 20176 votes

It's not about fixing those champions except Lee, It's about how players refuse to acknowledge that they are lazy which results in them not improving.

I'm talking about those players whom complain about Yasuo but you will rarely hear from Diamond level player from each and every server that Yasuo is OP, That champion is not even mentioned at that ELO and higher because there are other champions that would make or break the game, Mainly Ivern & Lulu.

If they were to ''try'' and ''fix'' those champions, One of them being Yasuo, It would be them balancing around the lower ELO, Which would not make any sense.

hhaavviikkMay 27, 20176 votes

{quoted}

It's not about fixing those champions except Lee, It's about how players refuse to acknowledge that they are lazy which results in them not improving.

I'm talking about those players whom complain about Yasuo but you will rarely hear from Diamond level player from each and every server that Yasuo is OP, That champion is not even mentioned at that ELO and higher because there are other champions that would make or break the game, Mainly Ivern & Lulu.

If they were to ''try'' and ''fix'' those champions, One of them being Yasuo, It would be them balancing around the lower ELO, Which would not make any sense.

I don't have problems beating yasuo in lane, doesn't mean I'm not having a terrible time laning against him

AwesomeGuyDjMay 28, 20174 votes

{quoted} It would be them balancing around the lower ELO, Which would not make any sense.

Yes because fuck like what? 90% of the playerbase?

GULAG 4 UMay 28, 20172 votes

So by this logic, let's balance around people who can't play the game properly?

ModAcademy KaynMay 28, 20171 votes

No, but one of League's points they got against Dota is the fact that they care about balancing the game on as many fronts as possible. There should be a reasonable amount of annoyance a Champion should be, when we talk about Pub stompers in Low Elo. Sometimes, a Champions weakness which is highly exploitable in High Elo isn't nearly as good a countermeasure than in Low Elo, which leads to a very heavy pub stomper.

Those cases in particular should be addressed, not everything.

AmazoXMay 28, 20172 votes

Grow up, And evolve into betterment, Not the reverse.

An Enemy SutandoMay 28, 20172 votes

By that logic, there shouldn't be difficulty in anything at all because most people can't do it.

You never consider the lowest common denominator, ever.

Spice POWAHMay 28, 20171 votes

These situations really make me wish they would balance for at least norms and ranked or something. I wonder how different the game would be if they only balanced for high elo?

wishbone25May 27, 20174 votes

better match making with players of different tiers is a disaster

EndlessSorcererMay 27, 20174 votes

It's less work.

Darkdemon653May 27, 20173 votes

There aren't any broken champions, so there's nothing to fix.

SwiftKitten88May 28, 20172 votes

{quoted}

There aren't any broken champions, so there's nothing to fix.

there is a difference between being "broken" and being OP.

a champ doesnt need to be OP to be to face... i would rather face a champ that counters me or an OP champ rather than a champ that is agony to face.. just becuase the champ is "balanced" does NOT mean its "ok".. toxic kits need to me removed

GULAG 4 UMay 28, 20171 votes

So completely subjective opinions should decide balance in this case?

SirTeemoMushroomMay 27, 20172 votes

they don't need to get fixed ... they are high skill cap champions and those who gave their time to learn how to play just win the game.. would be better if you stopped playng amumu and master yi for example , and start learning zed

JorenciceMay 27, 20174 votes

Zed?

Pretty sure amumu and yi does better higher Elo than zed does.

Weasel KenseiMay 27, 20172 votes

Lets assume you buy skins sometimes.

If a champ you like is perma banned... would you buy skins for that champ you love that you can never play?

$$$

Thats why.

Sir FuzziMay 27, 20172 votes

Because nobody ever wants to play around those mechanics. Like wow, no kidding, nobody wants to play with the aoe damage short-cd blink ult? Crazy!

Fucking outrageous!

Emerald FangMay 27, 20171 votes

How about get good?

LeagueOfJhinMay 27, 20171 votes

Because if you somehow make Yasuo balanced and not annoying there will be a new "Yasuo" for example the new "Yasuo" will become Fizz and they will "Fix" Fizz but the process will keep going so on and so fourth

zaire90May 27, 20171 votes

Because just people dislike playing against a champ that has no problems doesn't mean they need to be reworked for people that refuse to learn the champs

ShonjlMay 28, 20171 votes

I dont think its a matter of get good or not. Some people just don't want to deal with certain champs, what is wrong with that? I myself absolutely hate Orianna so she will never exist in any game I am a part of.

If they are scared that well known annoyance champs like Ahri, Lee, Yasuo, Fiora, Graves will be gone all the time, then maybe Riot should look at their champs and wonder why people don't like them?

I mean some aren't even hard to find out why, both high and low elo people know how stupid Graves is, but he doesn't get touched.

Its a failure on Riots part, and a severe one at that when they are going to release 5 bans and they even admit to why they are making it so you can't see the enemies bans is because they are scared the flashy LCS champs everyone generally hates won't exist anymore. They know the problem and would rather handicap the player than have their well known BS champs be denied.