Why are bruiser/fighter items allowed on ADCs?

Astôlfo·Jul 28, 2016·4 votes·819 views

Black Cleaver Duskblade of Draktharr Youmuu's Ghostblade

Why? Lucian has abused it. MF has abused it. Several others have abused it. Jhin is abusing it right now.

So my question is, why?

29 Comments

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 28, 20163 votes

because there isn't actually a such thing as bruiser fighter items

AstôlfoJul 28, 20161 votes

I mean, those items were meant for bruiser/fighters in the first place. But then ADCs picked it up (in Korea particularly) because of how well the early armorpen helps shred the base armor of the enemy lane in bot which equals harder earlier snowballing. As well as the high AD stats attached and the various other unique effects.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 28, 20161 votes

so what's wrong with this exactly

AstôlfoJul 28, 20161 votes

They were meant to be applied with melee autoattacks? Like Cleaver for example? They weren't designed for ranged ADCs to just shred armor early on at long range.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 28, 20161 votes

they are also bad investments on adcs if you don't stack enough armor or if you stack too much armor

AstôlfoJul 28, 20161 votes

Yes, like I said, it's an early snowball build to shred the base armor of the enemy ADC/support at range.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 28, 20161 votes

then its not really that efficient. That just means there is perhaps an issue with their normal itemization

AstôlfoJul 28, 20161 votes

Uh, it's far stronger in early where you don't have that much crit and are still betting on the crit chance and attack speed. After a few items though, crit becomes better (aka, mid-late/late game) because you have higher crit chance and huge attack speed.

It's just with the items I mentioned, you snowball so hard that the enemy laners become basically irrelevant and fall so far behind they can't catch up to said point to come back.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 28, 20161 votes

what about later when adcs are typically supposed to actually be strong?

AstôlfoJul 28, 20161 votes

But those 3 items make said ADC strong in early game to huge extents. Which leads to them just crushing the enemy laner/ADC/support first. Thus, said enemy champions fall behind. Meanwhile, the ADC with those items will just snowball and gain more gold/items instead.

Thus, by that lategame, if the game even goes on that long, the first ADC I'm talking about will be so far ahead while the other will be so far behind it's barely relevant. And then said ADC could just sell and switch to crit build if needed.

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

then its not really that efficient. That just means there is perhaps an issue with their normal itemization

its not an issue with their normal itemization lol. their normal itemization is fine.

its just abuse cases with certain aspects of their kits, like jhin/mf burst or lucians ability to shred armor with cleaver/ghostblade.

it doesnt mean adc itemization is bad, but those cheese interactions are simply stronger.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 28, 20161 votes

if they are stronger the alternative isn't good is it?

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

if they are stronger the alternative isn't good is it?

no. wtf. it means exactly what i said.

it just means these builds are stronger on specific adc due to kit interactions, not that the alternative is bad for them.

give me an item that costs 100 gold and gives me 100% crit and 500 ad. does that mean the other items in the game are trash or that the item is just too strong?

lucian on a crit/cdr essence reaver build is not weak. neither are jhin or mf weak if they didnt have cleaver/duskblade but standart adc items to work with. but they are often too strong with the items.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 28, 20161 votes

so they are good, they just aren't worth building? or what?

why don't they get built if they are good?

Critmaster GarenJul 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

so they are good, they just aren't worth building? or what?

why don't they get built if they are good?

why would you build/play something good, when you can build/play something op?

and these items are op on them due to their kit interaction. while they wouldnt be op on the champions they are designed for.

a garen or darius doesnt stack item 3071 with item 3142 and possibly another armor pen item because they need to build a lot of defense. so they dont have the room to afford to stack those items. this makes cleaver balanced as an individual item on these champions, while it makes it op on ranged adc who can afford to couple it with more damage/armor pen items.

item 3053 wasnt op on juggernauts either. it did exactly what it was designed for for them. these champions need to be able to survive the aoe clusterfuck that teamfights are if they want to be able to participate in those fights. while adc can deal damage while positioning themselves out of harms way. item 3053 + item 3156 was op on them because of the safety it got them against mage and assassin burst while still allowing them to deal enough damage to carry from range.

the item combination was much stronger on adc and assassins than on bruisers. thats the problem.

adc tend to abuse items designed for other classes to greater effect. it happened a lot in the past.

op is questioning why these bruiser and assasin items arent restricted to bruisers and assassins to prevent abuse cases by adc.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 29, 20161 votes

you would play something good because its good enough

otherwise it isn't good enough

Hinagiku33Jul 29, 20161 votes

"Good enough"

Are you new to gaming?

Did you ever play the original Doom? Most of the weapons were "good enough" to get through the game. But the BFG 9000 was the room-killing monster that everyone preferred to use. It was completely, unnecessarily strong - a complete game-breaker really - but we all used it. Why not? Why settle for "good enough" when you could do better?

League of Legends is all about optimizing. If everyone goes for a "good enough" build, then being the guy that goes for a "more damage than I even need" build means having a huge advantage and much better chance to win. And we all want to win, so we all use the better build.

I'm beginning to think you just don't know what "overpowered" actually means. When a certain build or item interaction is OP it crowds out all other options. Not because the others are bad, but because that one build is game-breaking-ly powerful and unbalanced and everyone will use it to win or to match it being used against them.

Crit builds are very, very powerful and are "good enough". The issue is not that Crit items and builds are "not good enough". It's that these specific interactions are too powerful to be allowed to remain in the game. Crit is at an appropriate level and these builds will likely be nerfed down to match that level so both become "good enough", rather than buffing Crit and making them both overpowered.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 29, 20161 votes

this isn't doom, this is a multiplayer moba.

If what is intended isn't optimal then it simply isn't good enough to compete with its superior alternative that everyone has access to. End of story.

rtbf22147970Jul 29, 20161 votes

I like the option of having different build paths across all roles. Otherwise why give the illusion of choice and just give me items when I hit the gold requirement? You guys identified the real issue though, arm pen reduces base armor not bonus armor that's why it's so efficient. Most of these items double dip meaning they reduce resistance while also giving damage. All penetration should only reduce bonus resistances capped at current base resistance.

ErockandrollJul 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Black Cleaver Duskblade of Draktharr Youmuu's Ghostblade

Why? Lucian has abused it. MF has abused it. Several others have abused it. Jhin is abusing it right now.

So my question is, why?

The answer is a little more niche than ADC's in general. (If your not one of the three listed above, just don't) And for the record, BC is a Bruiser/fighter item, the other two are Assassin items. And you can be pretty sure that Riot won't changes/look at those items, until the scheduled Assassin update.

The real answer is that they are casters. (And some very ult reliant ones at that) Lucian Deals physical damage with his Q and his ult. MF deals physical damage with her ult, and Jhin does a lot of physical damage with all his spells.

And the Likes of Ghost Blade, increases the damage by lowering armor obviously, but it also does so for their spells, since their spells don't get effectiveness from Crit chance, but do benefit from flat penetration. You could argue that a crit oriented caster build using ER, would offer Higher late game DPS, but the flat pen build almost certainly offers more Spell damage. Which could be a big thing, if your Jhin pick was pivoted on sniping with your ult.

I point this out, simply because Riot probably won't remove such a build option lightly.

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gHbezAJE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-07-29T00:12:18.017+0000)

way back before duskblade was released, riot mentioned that theyd put a melee only tag on it if it becomes a problem on adc. they are not following up on that promise now that certain adc are abusing the item.

I don't think they share the same definition of abuse. In a purely competitive scene, only a hand full of ADC's make use of these items, and they wouldn't changes them just to shut down an off build. They were designed to be Assassin items, but since Assassins arn't in the meta, Riot doesn't have a base to compare them to. They could be abusive by ADC, while not helping Assassin at all. (Which may require such a rework or melee only tag), It could be that the items in general are too strong. (where a simple nerf will suffice.)

420 gramsJul 28, 20161 votes

But then there's garen who can go full crit. No one should HAVE to buy certain things

AstôlfoJul 28, 20161 votes

I mean sure, crit isn't limited to ADCs. Crit was designed for both ADCs and melees. Items like the ones I mentioned weren't ever intended for ADCs.

Critmaster GarenJul 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But then there's garen who can go full crit. No one should HAVE to buy certain things

they left the crit scaling on his e in a nerfed state because they know its not actually a better build than going for standart fighter itemization.

since ghostblade lost crit, there arent really good items in the game for garen anymore to capitalize on the scaling. infinity edge alone isnt enough.

the problem is when adc are using bruiser and assassin items to the same or better effect as the classes they were intended for.

duskblade is a huge problem on adc for example. most noticably on jhin who can back it up with enough burst from his basic attacks, and mf who literally 1 shots squishy opponents with dusk blade with double ups over minions.

SkyblazeHydraX3Jul 28, 20161 votes

I don't know, but I absolutely freaking hate it. I'd prefer getting nuked by crits to these downright infuriating and safe builds.

You know something is absolutely wrong when an ADC can outdamage an assassin- particularly a Kha'Zix while isolated.

PermabannedGarenJul 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Black Cleaver Duskblade of Draktharr Youmuu's Ghostblade

Why? Lucian has abused it. MF has abused it. Several others have abused it. Jhin is abusing it right now.

So my question is, why?

Duskblade and Youmuu's aren't even fighter or bruiser items. Youmuu's is mostly an assassin item, and Duskblade was explicitly made for them.

AstôlfoJul 28, 20161 votes

Yeah, realized it after I made the thread. The point is, those three items weren't meant for ADCs.

Critmaster GarenJul 29, 20161 votes

way back before duskblade was released, riot mentioned that theyd put a melee only tag on it if it becomes a problem on adc. they are not following up on that promise now that certain adc are abusing the item.

AstôlfoJul 29, 20161 votes

Implying Riot has a good history with admitting mistakes/fixing problems.

DunkinNoobsJul 29, 20161 votes

Because a while back, Riot decided that Ghostblade active needed to last 6 seconds for ranged champs so they felt better about buying it. This was back when Ghostblade still had a weird mish mash of stats on it so most adcs didn't care for it. Then suddenly Riot reworks the item to having better overall stats and leaves the active the same. And now you have Lucians and Jhins running around with 20% increased MS for 6 fucking seconds.