So much talk about Lee and Zed,but aren't we forgetting something?

manbearswine·Jan 9, 2015·19 votes·2,174 views

I mean thresh is just as "balanced" as they are,where is all the love for thresh?

He's been dominating just for about the same duration,and continues to do so,and like Lee and Zed,the moment you check what's going on on pbe you see the obvious: and nerfs,I mean why would we nerf the champion who's been dominating for over a year now? Clearly a much more sensible approach would be to nerf his competition whenever it arises...

Thresh deserves some attention too.

102 Comments

Leblancs BoobJan 9, 201516 votes

Thresh is more overplayed than overpowered IMO. Its been said he's just so overloaded that no matter what he will always be a go-to pick for any support player. I don't think he's much of a threat in his current state but he will always be viable pick.

TheI3igDaddyJan 9, 20155 votes

This. He's not picked because he's OP, he's picked because he has a ton of utility and will always have it.

InsaneSamuraiJan 11, 20152 votes

His ton of utility IS what is op. That's the issue. He gets his auto-feed-my-adc skillshot like blitz, then you toss the lantern on top of that(not literally, that's a bad lantern throw :P) and it's just way too much.

AbodyHUN666Jan 9, 20152 votes

Yeah and all his theme is so cool that many new support players pick him up too. He is dominating the support picks because he can fit into most team comps while Janna, Sona, Soraka, Lulu need specific team comps to be viable.

manbearswineJan 9, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Thresh is more overplayed than overpowered IMO.

This is another idiotic mythos. competitive players don't "overplay",they are payed to try to win and thresh seems to be a go to pick for all of them,now I suggest you take a look at other go to picks that you don't main(gonna take a "guess" here) and share the pick/ban rate of thresh and tell me how balanced do you think they are.

Its been said he's just so overloaded that no matter what he will always be a go-to pick for any support player.

I could say the same thing about sona,having an incredibly generalistic kit which fits any comp,tell me now,how much of a go to pick has she been for the past year?

I don't think he's much of a threat in his current state but he will always be viable pick.

He's completely retarded in his current state,but I agree,he will definetly always be ~~viable~~ overpowered because riot simply refuses to nerf him appropriately,and just continuously gives him the "lee treatment".

Klatn YeloxJan 9, 20155 votes

The point is that thresh has a utility kit that will be OP regardless of the numbers. Unless they rework the kit, the champ will stay "OP" Just focus on dodging, and ban him next time. The real OP champs are the ones with utility AND op numbers.

manbearswineJan 9, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Klatn Yelox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dJeKu9xd,comment-id=000400020000,timestamp=2015-01-09T17:53:49.203+0000)

The point is that thresh has a utility kit that will be OP regardless of the numbers.

This is a flat out lie,for example thresh with 0 damage is trash,he just won't get his adc through laning,this is an idiotic lie,his opness is as much in numbers as it is in his kit.

Unless they rework the kit, the champ will stay "OP" Just focus on dodging,

no no,you pink ward the spears,god,have we learned nothing?

and ban him next time.

you know the champion is balanced when that's the only real counter to him.

The real OP champs are the ones with utility AND op numbers.

So...thresh...

AlphariteJan 9, 20152 votes

Balancing only off of competitive is fucking stupid. "OH, I saw Thresh played by pros, MUST BE OP RITO NERF NAO"

manbearswineJan 9, 20153 votes

Except that aside from very rare cases(can't think of anything),op in competitive very quickly translate to op in solo que.

or do you think lee is balanced now?

AlphariteJan 10, 20151 votes

Zilean was extremely broken in competitive, but a mediocre (if annoying) pick in SoloQ. Assuming that they share the same balance principle is utterly idiotic.

Now, I could give you my opinion on Lee, but because the people here turn into vehement animals and greet you with a shitstorm of downvotes whenever Lee is brought up and the sentence immediatly afterwards is not along the line of "OMG LEE SIN IS SO OP HE HAS 3 GAPCLOSERS AND A KNOCK BACK AND A SLOW AND HES SO GOOD GANK", I'd rather not.

manbearswineJan 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Zilean was extremely broken in competitive, but a mediocre (if annoying) pick in SoloQ. Assuming that they share the same balance principle is utterly idiotic.

Now, I could give you my opinion on Lee, but because the people here turn into vehement animals and greet you with a shitstorm of downvotes whenever Lee is brought up and the sentence immediatly afterwards is not along the line of "OMG LEE SIN IS SO OP HE HAS 3 GAPCLOSERS AND A KNOCK BACK AND A SLOW AND HES SO GOOD GANK", I'd rather not.

not really,due to zilean being crazy boring people weren't very eager to play him,but he was op in solo q as well.

and how about you give me a honest opinion of lebroken then,if lee is out of question?

Malix FarwinJan 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Balancing only off of competitive is fucking stupid. "OH, I saw Thresh played by pros, MUST BE OP RITO NERF NAO"

if you think "the pros" are the only ones playing thresh then you are retarded. He is the most played champion in the game for a reason. If you are at 30% popularity out of 100+ champions then something is wrong

AlphariteJan 13, 20151 votes

He also has a 48.5% winrate in GOLD AND UP and a 2% banrate.

Ezreal has a 30% pickrate, should we nerf him too?

AMYS GRAVEJan 10, 20153 votes

this^ it's thresh's kit that makes him strong. if all his abilities did 0 damage he would still be a viable pick.

killd0zerJan 9, 20155 votes

HAahahahah pros do not systematically overplay a champion just because they like to. If a kit is "so overloaded that no matter what he will always be a go-to pick for any support player" that's called OP.

Idk how people try to defend thresh and then rag on Lee or Zed. You can use the same arguments against Lee and everyone laughs.

Klatn YeloxJan 30, 20151 votes

Sorry, I haven't been online much this past month. But I noticed you seem to think people who defend Thresh always hate Lee. If you take a good look at it, no champion is truly OP. (Besides release Rek'sai. That was ridiculous) But little things about champions are OP. Like Lee Sin having a high base movespeed, in addition to his gap closers. There should be counterplay involved to the point where he is slow when his abilities are on cooldown. Not the abilities themselves being OP, but movespeed variations should be looked at. On that same note, I believe Orianna's base movespeed is abysmal when you consider her spell range, and should be increased by 5 to allow her to get out of the rage of other, longer range mages with the same movespeed. Just little things here and there would be good.

SmokinSickStyleJan 9, 201510 votes

Meanwhile Fizz has gained stealth it seems.

Slushi SimcambiJan 12, 20151 votes

Wait what.

SmokinSickStyleJan 12, 20152 votes

He was\is grossly overpowered for how easy to use he is, with all this QQ about broken kit champions Fizz is never mentioned, that's why i joked about "stealth".

He's there ruining games, but noone speaks about him, much like some sort of Mafia xD

Done25Jan 9, 20159 votes

Hmmm, let's see.

Passive - Reworked to be less useful early game. Q - Higher CD on misses. W - Can only shield one other person now. E - Untouched iirc other than moving the on hit to it from Q. R - Only damages one person now.

So basically everything but his E has been hit heavily. Not that it matters. Thresh ccould have 0 damage and 0 shield and he would still be used for the sheer mobility/displacement he brings. People build him pure tank as is anyways.

manbearswineJan 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Hmmm, let's see.

Passive - Reworked to be less useful early game. Q - Higher CD on misses.

on the early levels,and hitting minions still reduces cd,whereas lategame it's a pure buff,especially if you go heavy into cdr.

W - Can only shield one other person now. E - Untouched iirc other than moving the on hit to it from Q. R - Only damages one person now.

So basically everything but his E has been hit heavily. Not that it matters.

It does matter,because he was even more stupidly op before,it's just that riot refuses to give him nerfs which properly fit how op he is,and just continuously treat him as if he was only slightly over the top,whereas he has always been much more than that.

Thresh ccould have 0 damage and 0 shield and he would still be used for the sheer mobility/displacement he brings. People build him pure tank as is anyways.

I have no idea where this idiotic mythos originated from,or why it's chanted so often,but I can assure you with 100% certainty that if thresh dealt no damage he would be complete garbage,you can have all this amazing utility and cc,but you will have no adc as there will be no way whatsoever for you to survive laning phase,it's not just that,just check statistics at lolking overview,thresh deals more damage(at average) than sona/nami/braum do, he has quite a solid damage output for a support.

JJI744Jan 9, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I have no idea where this idiotic mythos originated from,or why it's chanted so often,but I can assure you with 100% certainty that if thresh dealt no damage he would be complete garbage,you can have all this amazing utility and cc,but you will have no adc as there will be no way whatsoever for you to survive laning phase,it's not just that,just check statistics at lolking overview,thresh deals more damage(at average) than sona/nami/braum do, he has quite a solid damage output for a support.

Lissandra ult: 150/250/350 Nami: 150/250/350 Sona ult: 150/250/350 Taric: 150/250/350 Leona: 150/250/350 Braum: 150/250/350

Thresh: 250/400/550 with 1.0 AP ratio to go with his free AP.

At least it is only single target now, so its only a huge chunk of damage to whoever he hooked-in botlane.

Hilltop SunsetJan 9, 20153 votes

Lissandra ult: AoE Nami: AoE Sona: AoE Taric: AoE Leona: AoE Braum: AoE

Thresh: Single target.

Blitz: AoE Deals 250/375/500 (+100% Ability Power)

In other words, hit only TWO people with the AoE ults and you're already doing more damage than Thresh's ult can do. Add another and it just gets more, and more, and more.

Also, Blitz. I'm not even going to mention the CD on Blitz ult.

Hilltop SunsetJan 9, 20156 votes

You sound really butt-hurt about Thresh, going around saying everyone believes this "idiodic mythos." The fact of the matter is he has a strong kit with a high skill cap: if he uses it properly, he gonna get'cha.

I did as you asked and went to LoLking. The results were not in your favor:

http://www.lolking.net/champions/thresh Damage dealt: 27,375 Winrate: 47.29% http://www.lolking.net/champions/sona Damage dealt: 30,911 Winrate: 52.6% http://www.lolking.net/champions/nami Damage dealt: 24,176 Winrate: 50.15% http://www.lolking.net/champions/braum Damage dealt: 26,970 Winrate: 49.88%

Of the ones you mentioned, Sona actually deals SIGNIFICANTLY more damage on average than Thresh. As in, she deals as much more damage than Thresh as Thresh deals more damage than Nami. He also only does insignificantly more damage than Braum (395) in the grand scheme of things. The only example there you have any chance of making any sort of argument against is Nami. Also, look who has the lowest winrate out of that bunch you just mentioned.

To take it a step further, I went ahead and checked out a few other support champs' damages:

http://www.lolking.net/champions/blitzcrank Damage dealt: 35,549 Winrate: 52.17% http://www.lolking.net/champions/leona Damage dealt: 31,976 Winrate: 52.82%

Way more damage, much higher winrates.

What was it you were complaining about, again?

manbearswineJan 9, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hilltop Sunset,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dJeKu9xd,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2015-01-09T17:33:51.432+0000)

You sound really butt-hurt about Thresh,

Well,you know how everyone is sick of lee? Well I'm a support main,so I am REALLY FUCKING SICK of thresh,having been sick of him already a year ago.

going around saying everyone believes this "idiodic mythos."

I didn't say everyone believes it,I said it's idiotic,and it is definetly so,if you think thresh with 0 damage would be even viable,I suggest you get your head checked(Though I seriously doubt anyone is stupid enough to believe that,they do however like to chant it though).

The fact of the matter is he has a strong kit with a high skill cap: if he uses it properly, he gonna get'cha.

So now practicing a champion for a while should make elo rain freely on me? Why can't I get free elo from mastering sona,or nami? High skillcap doesn't justify being overpowered,definitely not for so long.

I did as you asked and went to LoLking. The results were not in your favor:

They were...

http://www.lolking.net/champions/thresh Damage dealt: 27,375 Winrate: 47.29% http://www.lolking.net/champions/sona Damage dealt: 30,911 Winrate: 52.6% http://www.lolking.net/champions/nami Damage dealt: 24,176 Winrate: 50.15% http://www.lolking.net/champions/braum Damage dealt: 26,970 Winrate: 49.88%

Of the ones you mentioned, Sona actually deals SIGNIFICANTLY more damage on average than Thresh.

10% more is now SIGNIFICANTLY?

As in, she deals as much more damage than Thresh as Thresh deals more damage than Nami. He also only does insignificantly more damage than Braum (395) in the grand scheme of things. The only example there you have any chance of making any sort of argument against is Nami. Also, look who has the lowest winrate out of that bunch you just mentioned.

I don't care for winrates really,It's just because a lot of bad players pick him cause lcsbigplays,my point was that him having low damage output compared to other supports is a myth,and these stats support that.

To take it a step further, I went ahead and checked out a few other support champs' damages:

http://www.lolking.net/champions/blitzcrank Damage dealt: 35,549 Winrate: 52.17% http://www.lolking.net/champions/leona Damage dealt: 31,976 Winrate: 52.82%

Way more damage, much higher winrates.

What was it you were complaining about, again?

About myths regarding thresh? like low damage output and him being able to maintain viablity even with 0 damage.

Hilltop SunsetJan 9, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Well,you know how everyone is sick of lee? Well I'm a support main,so I am REALLY FUCKING SICK of thresh,having been sick of him already a year ago.

Leona is picked almost as often. And I see morg more than either Thresh or Leona. Does the fact I see them a lot make them op or ridiculous? No. Both their win rates are higher than Thresh, too, and Leon's damage is significantly higher while still being a crazy CC machine like Thresh, and has better innate tankiness.

I didn't say everyone believes it,I said it's idiotic,and it is definetly so,if you think thresh with 0 damage would be even viable,I suggest you get your head checked(Though I seriously doubt anyone is stupid enough to believe that,they do however like to chant it though).

They are invoking hyperbole; obviously doing nothing but moving players around isn't viable. The point is that he doesn't deal nearly as much damage as some of the higher DPS supports (Leona, Morgana, Sona) already, so nerfing his damage more would gimp him too hard.

So now practicing a champion for a while should make elo rain freely on me? Why can't I get free elo from mastering sona,or nami? High skillcap doesn't justify being overpowered,definitely not for so long.

Practice DOES make ELO rain freely on you, with any champ, really. I always advocated Nami when I mained support, but people didn't pick her up for a long time. Sona is just as strong. Look at those winrates. Even though you're having so much trouble with Thresh, 53% of teams seem to be just fine dealing with him.

10% more is now SIGNIFICANTLY?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_significance

I don't care for winrates really,It's just because a lot of bad players pick him cause lcsbigplays,my point was that him having low damage output compared to other supports is a myth,and these stats support that.

Fallacy: you argue he's OP, but the stats don't add up. You say he does too much damage: he does deal less than most supports (Blitz, Leona, Morg, Annie, Zyra, Sona), about the same as Braum, and more than Nami/Janna who historically play different roles than Thresh. You say he's OP, but his winrate is literally lower than every other support. You say lots of bad players pick him up, but that's the same with every champ in the game, so the winrates of every champ already account for that fact. Winrates are averages, so more play means more noobs and more pros, statistically.

About myths regarding thresh? like low damage output and him being able to maintain viablity even with 0 damage.

Again, hyperbole, but it's honestly a moot point since you are saying he's OP when he clearly is not. You just personally don't like having to deal with him because you are tired of seeing him. That's not the fault of the character design, it's just your personal preference/annoyance. You are essentially arguing that popular champs should be nerfed simply to make them less popular, not because they are overpowered.

InsaneSamuraiJan 11, 20151 votes

Leona can't take one skillshot and turn it into a free kill for your adc every time it hits under remotely favorable conditions.

JevelFaithfulJan 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Leona can't take one skillshot and turn it into a free kill for your adc every time it hits under remotely favorable conditions.

Actually Thresh can't either. Leona dashes and has stun + ult of true cc. Thresh has to dash too and has only Q + a small displacement on E as hard CC. The rest is slow and damage. Both dash, leona is tankier and has more hard CC, thresh has more slow and damage.

InsaneSamuraiJan 11, 20152 votes

9 times out of 10, If Thresh lands his hook on the adc and didn't either cause them to die, or have to blow summoners and/or go back to base, then either he or his adc isn't doing it right.

InsaneSamuraiJan 11, 20152 votes

Community wide stats and win-rates don't mean much. Tons and tons of people just pick a champ because they've seen countless people dominate with them. Then they get in the game and have no idea how to actually do it, and damage the stats. There are more than enough players who do this to make the game-wide percentages nearly useless.

AMYS GRAVEJan 10, 20151 votes

you just acknowledged 4 nerfs and say that riot refuses to nerf him? what? pre-nerf thresh needed to be nerfed, but he has.

manbearswineJan 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

you just acknowledged 4 nerfs and say that riot refuses to nerf him? what? pre-nerf thresh needed to be nerfed, but he has.

you know,the comparison to lee and zed is there for a reason,thresh is the same they keep giving love-taps to a champion which is stupidly over the top,I said they refuse to nerf him appropriately and the same goes for lee and zed.

AMYS GRAVEJan 11, 20151 votes

Dark Passage: Now only shields the first ally to be near the Lantern --- that's a HUGE nerf for a support.

The Box: no longer deals additional damage to opponents when they break extra walls beyond the first. --- another HUGE nerf.

SOUL DESPAWN RATE: 15 seconds ⇒ 8 seconds --- nearly a factor of two nerf to this!

Death Sentence: If the target cleanses the initial spell or blocks it with a spell shield, the chain will now shatter, preventing Thresh from casting Death Leap --- another huge nerf.

Souls now always grant 0.75 Armor and Ability Power instead of starting at 1.0 and granting diminishing returns per soul collected --- that's a 25% nerf to his armor and AP HOLY POOP THATS HUGE!

there are assorted other moderate nerfs but the above are all huge nerfs. i'm not saying that some of this wasn't warrented but this has all been to a champion which at one point was rocking a 40-45% win rate since release at gold-plat elo. just because he feels strong to play doesn't mean he is strong.

this makes me ask, how much more do you want?

manbearswineJan 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Dark Passage: Now only shields the first ally to be near the Lantern --- that's a HUGE nerf for a support.

no it's not,it's a minor nerf.

The Box: no longer deals additional damage to opponents when they break extra walls beyond the first. --- another HUGE nerf.

this one is mediocre,as aside from the first guy hit who thresh is trying to burst down(with his idiotic base damage on that ability,something which remained the same) it wasn't that important.

SOUL DESPAWN RATE: 15 seconds ⇒ 8 seconds --- nearly a factor of two nerf to this!

wow,now instead of staying forever it stays for half of forever,the horror!

Death Sentence: If the target cleanses the initial spell or blocks it with a spell shield, the chain will now shatter, preventing Thresh from casting Death Leap --- another huge nerf.

I would call this very minor at best.

Souls now always grant 0.75 Armor and Ability Power instead of starting at 1.0 and granting diminishing returns per soul collected --- that's a 25% nerf to his armor and AP HOLY POOP THATS HUGE!

no,it's flat,meaning this goes even at 100 and is a buff afterwards,another mediocre nerf.

there are assorted other moderate nerfs but the above are all huge nerfs. i'm not saying that some of this wasn't warrented but this has all been to a champion which at one point was rocking a 40-45% win rate since release at gold-plat elo. just because he feels strong to play doesn't mean he is strong.

I guess the pros are wrong about him then,they probably just pick him for shits and giggles,not because he's op.

this makes me ask, how much more do you want?

As much as it takes to get him out of the top tier,he has dominated long enough,I don't care how,get him out,enough choking me with this idiotic champion,I was already completely sick of him a year ago,give something else a shot at the top tier.

AMYS GRAVEJan 12, 20151 votes

your sarcastic tone really shows you don't want to have a serious conversation about this, and you are dismissing all these nerfs as minor because you feel they are, rather than noticing the factor of two/three nerfs to his kit. if they were 5-10% i might concede that they are minor, but these are not. so i'll just point out one more thing.

no less than RIOT PHREAK has said (paraphrasing) [that even the pros will often play what is fun, rather than what is objectively OP at the time]. zed has a high pick rate despite the fact that he has a sub 50% win rate. meanwhile sona/janna has a high winrate but a low pick rate. if the pros really played what is OP then thresh would not dominate the support role, sona/janna would. so yes, the pros do in fact pick him for "shits and giggles".

manbearswineJan 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

your sarcastic tone really shows you don't want to have a serious conversation about this,

The moment we start pretending thresh is balance we lose all contact with reality,hard to be serious about such nonsense,it's the same with people who pretend zed or lee are balanced.

and you are dismissing all these nerfs as minor because you feel they are, rather than noticing the factor of two/three nerfs to his kit. if they were 5-10% i might concede that they are minor, but these are not. so i'll just point out one more thing.

that's because they ARE minor,the only one I said was mediocare was the one where only one wall does damage to only one target,the rest are indeed very small nerfs.

no less than RIOT PHREAK has said (paraphrasing) [that even the pros will often play what is fun, rather than what is objectively OP at the time].

And yet at the same time every pro pretty much plays the same champions,which for some reason tend to change each patch,sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

zed has a high pick rate despite the fact that he has a sub 50% win rate.

How about we just agree thresh is as "balanced" as zed and lee(who also has a sub 50% winrate) then?

meanwhile sona/janna has a high winrate but a low pick rate.

Janna's pickrate is FAR from low,second most popular support in diamond,and by quite a large margin.

if the pros really played what is OP then thresh would not dominate the support role, sona/janna would. so yes, the pros do in fact pick him for "shits and giggles".

Classical delusionality of a thresh player,pros troll with thresh,they troll with lee,they troll with zed,they troll with syndra(another below 50% winrate champion,with nerfs on pbe due to how "balanced" she is) they could play sona/amumu for ez wins and ez money,but instead they play troll picks for fun.

InsaneSamuraiJan 11, 20151 votes

Damage nerfs or slight armor nerfs, or anything of that nature barely matters at all when it's his utility that is broken. They only barely nerfed that, and not enough to change his laning phase in the least.

AMYS GRAVEJan 12, 20151 votes

both his damage nerfs and armor nerfs were both nerfs to his laning phase. he can't trade as efectivly due to the damage nerfs and he can't survive the trades as easily with the armor nerfs.

when souls fall half as long and are worth 75% their previous values thats an overall nerf of 62.5% that means he is THREE TIMES squishier than he was. that's not a slight armor nerf that is a driven into the ground nerf. not to say he didn't need some nerfs but you can't call a factor of three reduction "insignifiact" (i'm paraphrasing your other post here) or "slight".

quoting your other post again...

Doesn't end up mattering too much when he's locking down your damage dealer.

so no support is supposed to have cc? i could use that same argument for nami, leona, sion, jinx, taric, morg, sejuani, amumu, etc... anyone with a reasonable amount of cc. thats often what supports do, it's their job.

i do agree with the fact that many of his nerfs were to his teamfighting not his laning. but those are significant nerfs in their own right.

InsaneSamuraiJan 12, 20151 votes

You're acting like the only armor he ever had came from souls. Thresh still buys armor and becomes tanky like that just as well as anyone else does, his constant gain is all that was nerfed. That doesn't make him even close to 3 times squishier, I'm not sure how you're coming up with that.

Having 3 chainable cc moves that all combine to lock down and reposition an enemy is pretty different than just "having cc". Also, none of the champs you listed can take someone who was in a safe spot and move them into a free kill zone, then easily keep them there long enough for them to be exploded as long as his mouse was in the right spot when he hit flay.

AMYS GRAVEJan 13, 20151 votes

Thresh still buys armor and becomes tanky like that just as well as anyone else does

thresh can buy too much armor with all that money that supports make? i don't get your point, everyone can buy armor but thresh gets none passively. that means he is weaker than every other champ in the game in that regard. if he wants to keep up in armor he has to actively go collect souls, which means you know where he is walking. use that to your advantage.

his constant gain is all that was nerfed.

oh thats all, completely removing his passive armor is a kind of nerf i guess... i don't think you can pass that off as a small nerf.

That doesn't make him even close to 3 times squishier

when souls fall half as long and are worth 75% their previous values that's an overall nerf of 62.5% that means he is THREE TIMES squishier than he was. 0.5*0.75=0.325 ~=1/3. three times less armor.

Also, none of the champs you listed can take someone who was in a safe spot and move them into a free kill zone, then easily keep them there long enough for them to be exploded

ok then how bout blitzcrank? his pull is much faster, has a stun, he has a knock up, a silence and he does way more burst damage.

or how about Jarvan IV who has a Knockup, a Slow, and a Displacement. he is tankier has more cc and does more damage.

or how about Gragas, two displacements, a stun, and a slow.

gnar has three slows, two stuns and a knockback.

anivia has a displacement two slows and a stun.

don't act like thresh is some cc monster that can't be dealt with. he is far from having the most cc in the game, lots of other champs have displacements in combination with other cc, thresh doesn't 100-0 people when some of the above can, the other champs have more defenses, more damage, and many of them are easier to play.

InsaneSamuraiJan 14, 20151 votes

Do you realize how much you exaggerate things? If you want people to take your point seriously you need to speak truthfully.

{quoted}

thresh can buy too much armor with all that money that supports make? i don't get your point, everyone can buy armor but thresh gets none passively. that means he is weaker than every other champ in the game in that regard. if he wants to keep up in armor he has to actively go collect souls, which means you know where he is walking. use that to your advantage.

Are you saying you've never seen a tanky Leo/Braum/etc support? Cause he gets about the same gold as they do.

oh thats all, completely removing his passive armor is a kind of nerf i guess... i don't think you can pass that off as a small nerf.

They didn't completely remove his passive armor.

when souls fall half as long and are worth 75% their previous values that's an overall nerf of 62.5% that means he is THREE TIMES squishier than he was. 0.5*0.75=0.325 ~=1/3. three times less armor.

I think you should look up how armor works

ok then how bout blitzcrank? his pull is much faster, has a stun, he has a knock up, a silence and he does way more burst damage.

Blitz is a toxic champ who needs a rework or something, but as far as game balance goes, Thresh is simply better because he translates into more for his team late game.

or how about Jarvan IV who has a Knockup, a Slow, and a Displacement. he is tankier has more cc and does more damage.

Jarvan has more cc than Thresh? Are you sure?

or how about Gragas, two displacements, a stun, and a slow.

gnar has three slows, two stuns and a knockback.

anivia has a displacement two slows and a stun.

Since when has Gragas, Gnar, or Anivia support been an issue?

don't act like thresh is some cc monster that can't be dealt with. he is far from having the most cc in the game, lots of other champs have displacements in combination with other cc, thresh doesn't 100-0 people when some of the above can, the other champs have more defenses, more damage, and many of them are easier to play.

It's ok to like Thresh. It's not ok to twist reality to try and deflect any balancing that he obviously needs.

AMYS GRAVEJan 15, 20151 votes

Do you realize how much you exaggerate things? If you want people to take your point seriously you need to speak truthfully.

i'm really not exagerating things, and i am speaking truthfully (save one math error/miswording on my part...)

Are you saying you've never seen a tanky Leo/Braum/etc support? Cause he gets about the same gold as they do.

yeah, he gets the same gold so he can buy as much armor as anyone else this doesn't make him tankier than anyone else, it makes him the same. so when you were arguing that he can buy more armor than others, that is false. that was my point.

They didn't completely remove his passive armor.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Thresh

Damnation: Thresh does not gain armor per level.

look it up man. its literally the first words on the description of his passive.

I think you should look up how armor works

right, sorry i worded things poorly 1/3 armor means he has 1/2 the resistances, 100/(100+100) = 1/2* 100/(100+300) he only gets half as much resistance not 1/3. 1/3 less armor isn't 1/3 the resistances, that's not how it works. it's still a pretty big nerf though.

Blitz is a toxic champ who needs a rework or something, but as far as game balance goes, Thresh is simply better because he translates into more for his team late game.

if Blitz builds ap he becomes a cc based assassin who can ~delete many squishies with one combo. /StartOpinion{i think he scales just fine into late game. i will note that blitz and thresh share some of the same counterplay that is taught in the intro tutorial "stay behind your minions". that said i agree that the instant-ish nature of blitz's hook lacks counterplay and can be overly punishing and might need to be looked at, but we digress. }/EndOpinion

Jarvan has more cc than Thresh? Are you sure?

he has a knockup, a slow, a displacement and creates impassable terrain. thresh has a hook, a knockback/or knocktowards, and a slow. count it up, 4 to 3 = less cc.

Since when has Gragas, Gnar, or Anivia support been an issue?

i point them out because they objectively have more cc, and you are complaining that thresh has too much cc. by that logic they are OP supports too.

It's ok to like Thresh. It's not ok to twist reality to try and deflect any balancing that he obviously needs.

not really twisting reality here. just pointing out the facts. downvote me all you want, but these can all be researched by anyone willing to actually read up on the champions they are discussing before posting to the forums. The good thing about facts is that they are true whether or not you believe them.

AbyssphereJan 9, 20157 votes

Thresh is by far the best support when somebody can actually play him well. I'm sick of seeing him be the constant default pick in competitive games.

Subject 5Jan 13, 20153 votes

HAHAHAHAHAH! I just read that somebody said that Thresh's kit is evenly distributed! Oh damn-that was a good one! Whew-i almost took it seriously for a second there-i also read that the same guy thought that blitz is defined by his pull! Oh man-i'm going to bed.

Blade of JusticJan 9, 20151 votes

Meanwhile: Kennen

manbearswineJan 9, 20157 votes

Well,good ninjas aren't supposed to be noticed.

But yeah it's really annoying how riot simply prefers a lot of champions compared to others,effectivaly shoving them down your throat,can't we really just let someone else have a shot at the top tier? must we really enforce the thresh/zed/lee meta,and balance around them?

People call syndra BS,and I agree,but she has to be BS to compete with zed,same goes for xerath,we really should stop balancing lanes around champions who are inherently stupid,before they start dragging others to the same state.

AlorasenceJan 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Well,good ninjas aren't supposed to be noticed.

But yeah it's really annoying how riot simply prefers a lot of champions compared to others,effectivaly shoving them down your throat,can't we really just let someone else have a shot at the top tier? must we really enforce the thresh/zed/lee meta,and balance around them?

People call syndra BS,and I agree,but she has to be BS to compete with zed,same goes for xerath,we really should stop balancing lanes around champions who are inherently stupid,before they start dragging others to the same state.

Thank you.

Complaints around Xerath and Syndra drive me crazy.

Oh! finally a mage I can play against the obscenely overpowered mid lane assassins!

I might be able to survive lane!

"Syndra make muh all in hard"- Zed

"I have to dodge skill shots more often than my E is up? plz nerf."- Fizz

JevelFaithfulJan 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He's been dominating just for about the same duration,and continues to do so,and like Lee and Zed,the moment you check what's going on on pbe you see the obvious: and nerfs,I mean why would we nerf the champion who's been dominating for over a year now?

I was about to ask how you could think he was like those 2. Then I saw this and I have to admit you're kinda right. Accept I don't think he's as dominant in lane as the 2 you mention. He has been a good pick for a long time, yet I don't think he's stopping many other champion form being played. I'd say Leona is/was worse on that regard.

Right now Thresh looks in a decent spot. On the strong side, but not overly so.

[Cynical answer ] : Another major difference : Thresh isn't the one bursting you down and he's not bouncing around the map while killing and CCing your team.

manbearswineJan 11, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I was about to ask how you could think he was like those 2. Then I saw this and I have to admit you're kinda right. Accept I don't think he's as dominant in lane as the 2 you mention. He has been a good pick for a long time, yet I don't think he's stopping many other champion form being played. I'd say Leona is/was worse on that regard.

I disagree,his immensely generalisitc kit is definitely shoving people out,and so is how hard his engage is.

Right now Thresh looks in a decent spot. On the strong side, but not overly so.

The only reason he doesn't seem completely overbearing is: 1)a lot of bad players play him,masking his potential when played right. 2)janna is stronger,but don't worry,riot won't stand for thresh to have any competition,nerfs on pbe.

[Cynical answer ] : Another major difference : Thresh isn't the one bursting you down and he's not bouncing around the map while killing and CCing your team.

Well,would've never guessed you were being sarcastic without you saying that,have heard this idiotic nonsense in a serious tone too many times.

JevelFaithfulJan 11, 20151 votes

First part : yet nami, sona, janna, leona, braum are all viable. I'll admit they're probably a step above the rest (which is mostly all the utility-mage from midlane), but that's 6 viable champion for the role. That's a lot considering (pure)support is supposedly the least represented role. I also saw people praising soraka as powerful, so maybe there's another one too.

Second part : you might not be wrong. Then again, almost every top tier champion is the same. Get good enough with quinn and you have a bruiser-class lane bully that also scales into an adc. Fizz becomes literally impossible to catch... From the point of view I have of the game, I don't see him crowding out everyone else. In my last SR games (over a few months), I've seen only 1 thresh every 5 or 6 games. (mind you, I mostly play support, so that's out of 7-8 players).

Well,would've never guesses you were being sarcastic without you saying that,have heard this idiotic nonsense in a serious tone too many times.

Sorry if it came out harsher than intended. I meant that it shouldn't be a factor, but people will remember the guy that ended 10/0 instead of the support who was as much of a problem. Unless they're laning against him maybe. The sad part is that it is part of the reason fewer people are annoyed at supports. That shouldn't be, but it is.