Riot, why does Lee Sin still have 350 base MS? It just lowers his skill requirement.

darkdill·Dec 6, 2015·149 votes·5,111 views

350 MS lets him super-easily run up to someone, point-blank Q or E them, and reposition too easily for kicking you back toward his team. Where's the "requires skill" part of that?

Lee Sin has too much base movement speed for someone with so many damn dashes. LOWER IT.

EDIT: To put it in context, think of it this way - Lee Sin is almost never a bad pick for any composition. In any team line-up, he can have a use. No one really outclasses him at that.

150 Comments

Dio ßrandoDec 6, 201539 votes

I'd say 340 would be a solid nerf.

JefftiffyDec 6, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=OS Jason,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGMT5aGY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-06T04:13:09.827+0000)

I'd say 340 would be a solid nerf.

Last time I checked 350 MS vs 325 is 107% which means you barely outrun anyone based on base MS. You move 7% faster meaning to walk up and Q and ult someone as Lee they would have to have been letting you run at them for 10+ seconds while running away to be able to use his combo efficiently.

He still is one of the weaker junglers right now over the average picks.

LankPantsDec 6, 201528 votes

He still is one of the weaker junglers right now over the average picks.

Not even remotely.

JefftiffyDec 7, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Not even remotely.

Tell me who is meta right now. Top tier picks: XinZhao , Jax , TahmKench , , Shaco , MasterYi , Kindred , Rengar .

Lee got gutted with the nerfs to item 3340 .

I honestly think that you guys just want Lee nerf just to nerf him. There is no balance reasoning. Can you tell me one thing he does better than any other jungler than not die? His kit encourages vision (kind of ironic). But vision isn't necessary. The only part of his kit that is even strong late game is his ult. Everything else falls off. All the top tiers don't. There is a reason for this. And if you can't figure it out after Lee Sin being popular for so many seasons and being nerfed over and over again but not ever being "bad". Is his numbers are low but his utility is high. He isn't strong he just brings utility.

LankPantsDec 7, 20156 votes

Lee got gutted with the nerfs to .

item 2043 He item 3711 got item 2049 gutted item 2045 .

There's plenty of ways for Lee to itemise into ward jumping, but god forbid you actually have to think abut it rather than just having free ward jumps on demand at all times.

Is his numbers are low but his utility is high.

His numbers are high and his utility is insane. Seriously 600+200% AD is not a low number, nor is 340+180% AD+8% missing HP on a basic ability.

JefftiffyDec 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He got gutted .

There's plenty of ways for Lee to itemise into ward jumping, but god forbid you actually have to think abut it rather than just having free ward jumps on demand at all times.

His numbers are high and his utility is insane. Seriously 600+200% AD is not a low number, nor is 340+180% AD+8% missing HP on a basic ability.

Except tell me how often Lee's build enough damage to use it. And when they do, how well do they actually do? Most Lee's explode if they don't build tank which is why he can't stack damage. And rushing tank leaves him with low damage. So he remains pretty squishy until he gets to his 2nd item.

You also forgot about item 3074 getting nerfed which makes it harder for him to use his power spikes.

BetaDude40Dec 7, 20152 votes

that doesn't matter when you have 1140 base damage + (8% missing health) in a single spell rotation of Q-Q-E-R, and where getting an infinity edge will add 377 damage to that whole bloody thing.

KetiDec 7, 20152 votes

Shaco top tier? In what universe? No one even plays him.

Lee sin is definitely still a premiere pick in jungle, always has been always will be. I don't mind him usually, but saying he's worse than shaco at any point ever is just stupid, Lee sin is the main reason shaco is unplayable, Lee fills his niche.

falldown010Dec 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Shaco top tier? In what universe? No one even plays him.

Lee sin is definitely still a premiere pick in jungle, always has been always will be. I don't mind him usually, but saying he's worse than shaco at any point ever is just stupid, Lee sin is the main reason shaco is unplayable, Lee fills his niche.

a shaco who knows his kit can be op this season, dont underestimate him xD but yeah lee is just too strong this season , also his counter jungle at lv 2 , hurts like a btch, unless you put that one bush full with boxes, otherwise rip buff ;x

Ulquiorra995Dec 6, 201530 votes

{quoted}

Last time I checked 350 MS vs 325 is 107% which means you barely outrun anyone based on base MS. You move 7% faster meaning to walk up and Q and ult someone as Lee they would have to have been letting you run at them for 10+ seconds while running away to be able to use his combo efficiently.

So... you'd actually have to hit your only skillshot to instagib/knockback their squishy?

SpoofghoulDec 6, 201574 votes

[{quoted}](name=OS Jason,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGMT5aGY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-06T04:13:09.827+0000)

I'd say 340 would be a solid nerf.

Yes nerf it by 340 so lee only has 10 movespeed i like this idea

BastionKrossDec 6, 201529 votes

Sadly enough, Lee would still be able to get around pretty well in the jungle with 10 MS.

l Main RenektonDec 6, 20152 votes

Do you hear how absolutely stupid you sound?

Chaotic ReksDec 6, 201542 votes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/992/401/e37.png

git rekt

Troll for TrumpDec 6, 201517 votes

Lee Sin ulted the joke over him.

Chaotic ReksDec 7, 20155 votes

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/slow_clap_citizen_kane.gif

you win sir

MelledoneusDec 8, 20152 votes

Technically speaking, Poppy ulted it. Otherwise, he would take a percentage of the joke's max health and the initial damage to the joke in damage, and get knocked up.

Hyrum GraffDec 6, 201515 votes

I'll point out: this was the reason they nerfed Blitz's W to slow him when the speed boost ends.

Flyer BeastDec 6, 201510 votes

Good point, 340 instead would be better

fééd l0rdDec 6, 20158 votes

Okay I used to main Lee Sin on my other account when I mostly played jungle and I can tell that Lee Sin is by far one of the most balanced champions in the game. He is useful in every meta and he is never unplayable. Every champion should be exactly like that. Champions like Zyra are not playable cause the game has gotten too fast, champions like Yorrick are useless against all those mobile champions etc.

Lee is overloaded that is true but that does not make him op. He needs a high movement speed to stick with his target when he can't land his q. He needs to aa his targets to not run out of energy and sometimes it is hard to reach them without using either just your q or w/e.

Taking 10 of his movementspeed would not change that much. I still don't get why people cry about Lee. Elise was hella broken and here nobody said something. Fiora? Veigar? Lux? Brand? They all are obnoxious to deal with while being ten times easier than Lee is.

RetillinDec 6, 201528 votes

I think you pointed out the problem people have with Lee.

He is useful in every meta and he is never unplayable.

While I agree it would be great if every champion were like this, as you pointed out it is not true. People get frustrated with the fact that Lee is ALWAYS a good solid pick. The question is, why are other champions only allowed to stay strong in one meta (Sej in Cinderhulk as an example) but Lee is allowed to stay strong in all of them? After a while people start to ask "why is Lee allowed to __". It seems to some to be favouritism (and truth be told Riot has basically said this).

fééd l0rdDec 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I think you pointed out the problem people have with Lee.

While I agree it would be great if every champion were like this, as you pointed out it is not true. People get frustrated with the fact that Lee is ALWAYS a good solid pick. The question is, why are other champions only allowed to stay strong in one meta (Sej in Cinderhulk as an example) but Lee is allowed to stay strong in all of them? After a while people start to ask "why is Lee allowed to __". It seems to some to be favouritism (and truth be told Riot has basically said this).

The point is that champions like sejuani were TOO strong in the cinderhulk meta. Lee is always strong but he never lacks counterplay like sejuani for example did. Huge damage while being tanky while being strong in team fights... Lee is one of those champions which are perfectly balanced while being overloaded because there are always champions which can pull of one of the things he can but way better. Gragas insecs better than Lee, Vi locks better down than Lee, Maokai can better peel than Lee and can absorb more damage than Lee can with his shied. Just a few examples. If the people on this board want Lee to be garbage just because their mains are garbage than they don't want balance they just want to take the easy way.

BetaDude40Dec 6, 201517 votes

Sej was only "too strong" before the 500 nerfs (exaggeration) that were given to both her AND Cinderhulk in the same patches.

Lee Sin has received love taps in the past, but they've barely changed him at all. Of course, it's expected for the generalist to not be as good at other roles champions can do, but he just has SO MUCH in his power budget that it seriously makes you wonder why it's been like this for SO LONG.

When a generalist like Lee comes along, he is supposed to have the same power budget as other champions, but it be divided into smaller categories (I.e. he can have the traits you described other champions who are (supposed to be) doing his job better). When Lee has this much stuff, all of it has to be relatively weak to keep his power budget equalized with others.

This hasn't really been the case. Just to give you an idea, at level 18, he is capable of doing 340 + (180% Bonus AD) + (8% missing health) in physical damage just from Q and follow-up, then his E does 200 + (+100% bonus AD) and also a 60% slow on follow-up. Finally, he can ult for 600 + (200% bonus AD), which also gives one of the most powerful knockbacks in the game. That's 1140 + (480% bonus AD) + (8% missing health) in the span of about 1.5 seconds. This is also not counting the fact he has 2 gapclosers and 350 base movespeed, which can keep up with or outrun every champion except Gnar (mini, at level 18), Elise (spider), Master Yi, and Pantheon. And most players build him tanky, not to mention.

I'm not saying that he's the worst champion ever made, but something HAS to go. Like, seriously, I'm not sure how this kit is allowed to function the way it is

ShinjusukeDec 6, 20155 votes

There's no "basically" about it.

Riot has stated outright they show Lee Sin blatant favoritism. Morello has on more than one occasion professed he knows Lee Sin is overloaded and overpowered but isn't allowed to nerf him.

Lee Sin players need to pull their heads out of their asses and stop PRETENDING he's a balanced champion just because he's not getting the nerfs he needs. He's not getting turned into a reasonably outfitted champion because he's popular and for NO OTHER REASON. Period. This is a 5 year old argument and it's been stated multiple times by Riot that they would change him if his whiney little fanboys didn't cry an ocean at any changes to him that aren't buffs.

Voluug13Dec 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shinjusuke,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGMT5aGY,comment- id=000600000002,timestamp=2015-12-06T22:34:36.288+0000)

There's no "basically" about it.

Riot has stated outright they show Lee Sin blatant favoritism. Morello has on more than one occasion professed he knows Lee Sin is overloaded and overpowered but isn't allowed to nerf him.

Lee Sin players need to pull their heads out of their asses and stop PRETENDING he's a balanced champion just because he's not getting the nerfs he needs. He's not getting turned into a reasonably outfitted champion because he's popular and for NO OTHER REASON. Period. This is a 5 year old argument and it's been stated multiple times by Riot that they would change him if his whiney little fanboys didn't cry an ocean at any changes to him that aren't buffs.

I am literally saving this for posterior use.

ShinjusukeDec 9, 20151 votes

Make sure you pull your head from there while you're at it :)

Voluug13Dec 10, 20151 votes

I was agreeing with you....

ShinjusukeDec 11, 20151 votes

I got the impression you were saying you planned to wipe your ass with what I was saying lol

TurquoiseYoshiDec 6, 201511 votes

So if his player is bad and can't land a Q, then Lee deserves to get close anyway? Especially when ward-hopping and Flash are still in your arsenal?

People did complain about Fiora, Veigar, Lux, and currently Brand.

RyzeReworkDec 7, 20151 votes

Flash is 5 mins ward hop means having a ward and you have to be able to ward hop and I bet more then 50 percent of leagye players cant ward hop perfectly 100 percent of the time

TurquoiseYoshiDec 7, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Godlike Jungle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGMT5aGY,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2015-12-07T01:05:19.587+0000)

Flash is 5 mins

Indeed it is. Yet Annie is able to survive off of only its combo.

ward hop means having a ward

Most Lees build Sightstone, and now it's even easier with Tracker's Knife.

and you have to be able to ward hop and I bet more then 50 percent of leagye players cant ward hop perfectly 100 percent of the time

I'm sorry that he's a hard champion. Most champions get balanced off of skill ceiling, not skill floor or average skill. So if you want to play Lee, you gotta know how to ward hop decently.

RyzeReworkDec 7, 20151 votes

yeah but it takes pratice to play leesin somone like annie who doesnt need flash can be picked up in a game or 2 she has a simple kit. and the reason i say annie doesnt need flash is because her tibbers is a pretty decent cast range. i dont build lee with a sightstone or trackers because of the new 2 wards but even with sightstone or tracker the purpose is to get vision and if your saving wards to just escape or engage then you might as well stick with the 2 free wards you get. and the ONLY people that think leesin is broken are people that cant play him well or that are buthurt they cant play against him. leesin is very susceptible to ANY kind of cc. slows stuns sliences fear and if your going into a team and get cced your done unless your building tank which in case you wont do shit, lee sin isnt a no brain jump in kill people champion, and if thats how anyone feels then there either playing against bad teams or dont play lee sin.

RatbertDec 7, 20152 votes

"annie doesn't need flash" Just try that. I double dare you. 890 maximum range is abysmal for a mage.

I mean, i'd pay 100 gold to be able to dash, so just buy a pink if you can't use your free regenerating ward. Oh and if you think a dash isn't that great, just look at how summoner 31 summoner 32 unbalanced ARAMs when it came out.

CC>any non-toggler, not just lee sin. Ok, if you chain stun him for 3 seconds, i guess he can't cast his secondary effect, but then again, 3 seconds beats everyone.

Lee sin is quite frankly a low skill floor champ because recovery (3 unique safety nets lmao) is super duper easy on him, so I have no idea how it's hard to play lee besides some good reflexes (which isn't skill).

RyzeReworkDec 7, 20151 votes

If your building leesin for damnage 1 second of cc is all it takes to squash him

RatbertDec 8, 20151 votes

Good thing the strongest cc is death, which full damage lee sin can do to any non tank.

CC screws everyone.

RyzeReworkDec 8, 20151 votes

i know many champions that cc doesnt screw full damange cant 100-0 anyone lategame if everyone was full build, ive had almost 400 ad and counter burst down a adc with bt and sheild outside of lees burst he has nothing should we take away assassins damange liked zed and leblanc because they have damange and mobility which is allot more damange then leesin can have and they have reliable mobility, or should we nerf riven who has more damange cc and mobility then lee sin? oh and a sheild? i mean you talk like your a lee sin main but you havent played leesin at all so...

RatbertDec 9, 20151 votes

who isn't beaten by cc besides togglers? Lee can easily kill full build squishies because most of them have 100 armor tops. His full combo will probably deal 2.5-3k to them.

The difference with zed and lb is that they don't have instant targetted cc + all that mobility and damage. They don't have "a lot more damage" than lee sin, it's just that bruiser lee works so much better because his numbers still let him solo any squishy so full damage is just overkill. Riven has less mobility than lee, and less cc, and lee's shield can shield another person.

I mean you talk like you think lee sin is actually a blind cripple when he's never ever been weak. You do realize that he's a generalist champ, so ya, some other champs who specialize will beat lee in one category, but lee will beat them in the rest. It's like saying thresh is super underpowered because soraka heals more than him.

RyzeReworkDec 9, 20151 votes

Your right leblanc has 2 types of cc your acting like leesin is broken and u don't even play him! So I mean... you must just be but hurt you got owned by a lee sin. He is balanced and takes skill and time to pratice.

RatbertDec 10, 20151 votes

lb has a weak slow and a snare on one person (or if you ult e, 2). Lee sin has an aoe decent slow and an aoe knockup + knockback. Wow 2 single target skillshot soft cc vs 1 hard and 1 soft instant aoe.

If only I needed to play him to know if someone's got too much. I don't need to be a soldier to say a musket is worse than a rifle.

If skill and time you mean reflexes and 10 games (i dunno, i picked up numerous champs in one game in ranked), then sure he takes "skill and time". If by balanced you mean "never a bad pick" then yes he's balanced.

Like do you think lee is hard because he gets 2 dashes while others don't so that he needs to make big plays? I don't even get beaten by lee anymore, most are so terrible they beat themselves.

RyzeReworkDec 10, 20151 votes

He doesn't get 2 dashes if he misses a q and ward hoping was nerfed to have a crazy CD now. But since you dont play lee sin you dont understand how hard he is. Its okay to get mad because you got rekt by a lee sin but you've probably also tried lee sin and got even more mad when you figured you couldn't play him

RyzeReworkDec 11, 20151 votes

ur talking about building 40 percent cdr on leesin i mean comon? leesin doesnt have dashes if he cant land his skills leesin doesnt have any cc unless hes standing next to somone and the only people who say lee sin are op are people that get crushed or cant play the champion. i dont have to check your match history i know you dont play leesin if ur complaing he is op

Bears Dont CareDec 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Indeed it is. Yet Annie is able to survive off of only its combo.

Most Lees build Sightstone, and now it's even easier with Tracker's Knife.

I'm sorry that he's a hard champion. Most champions get balanced off of skill ceiling, not skill floor or average skill. So if you want to play Lee, you gotta know how to ward hop decently.

Wait ..clicking a ward is hard?

Asayake 5150glowDec 6, 201523 votes

{quoted}

Okay I used to main Lee Sin on my other account when I mostly played jungle and I can tell that Lee Sin is by far one of the most balanced champions in the game. He is useful in every meta and he is never unplayable. Every champion should be exactly like that. Champions like Zyra are not playable cause the game has gotten too fast, champions like Yorrick are useless against all those mobile champions etc.

Lee is overloaded that is true but that does not make him op. He needs a high movement speed to stick with his target when he can't land his q. He needs to aa his targets to not run out of energy and sometimes it is hard to reach them without using either just your q or w/e.

Taking 10 of his movementspeed would not change that much. I still don't get why people cry about Lee. Elise was hella broken and here nobody said something. Fiora? Veigar? Lux? Brand? They all are obnoxious to deal with while being ten times easier than Lee is.

...He shouldn't be able to stick onto a target if he misses his Q.

BetaDude40Dec 6, 20159 votes

^^^^^^^^^^^^

I am so sad I can only upvote this once

MatezoideDec 6, 20158 votes

Dont you love it when Lee doesnt have anything to W to and misses his Q, but still catches up anyway?

ZLbSwAR23IDec 6, 20153 votes

{quoted}

350 MS lets him super-easily run up to someone, point-blank Q or E them, and reposition too easily for kicking you back toward his team. Where's the "requires skill" part of that?

Lee Sin has too much base movement speed for someone with so many damn dashes. LOWER IT.

I don't think you understand how hard Lee Sin is to play well.

He loses more games for his team than he wins because people need a lot of experience with him. This will only make things worse.

Ariel the CruelDec 6, 201510 votes

Your right, lee is to hard to play for newbies. We should make changes that only affect his skill floor; and aren't strait buffs to bring him back into the meta.

Energy regen doubled on first AA of passive and halved on second AA. Ult now deals bonus damage on secondary targets based on the primary target's health.

That should just about cover it.

Only Play DariusDec 6, 20152 votes

MasterYi has 350 base despite a massive MS steroid, resetting dash, and immunity to slows Pantheon has 350 base even though he has a dash, a stun, and a teleport.

Asayake 5150glowDec 6, 201515 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gGMT5aGY,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-12-06T17:26:05.775+0000)

has 350 base despite a massive MS steroid, resetting dash, and immunity to slows has 350 base even though he has a dash, a stun, and a teleport.

Panth's 'teleport' takes >4 seconds to channel and is extremely telegraphed. His dash and stun are combined.