The actual math behind new thornmail

Critkeeper··3 votes·3,172 views

#Old thornmail: UNIQUE: Reflects 15% of the physical damage taken (+ 25% bonus armor) from basic attacks and on-hit effects back to its source as magic damage (Calculated before any resistances or reductions are taken into account).

#New thornmail: Unique Passive - Thorns: Upon being hit by a basic attack, reflects magic damage equal to 10% of your bonus armor plus 25, inflicting Grievous Wounds on the attacker for 1 second.

At what point is the old thornmail doing more damage than the new thornmail?

0.15 * RawDamageReceived + 0.25 * BonusArmor > 0.1 * BonusArmor + 25 simplifying 0.15 * (RawDamageReceived + BonusArmor) > 25 simplifying RawDamageReceived + BonusArmor > 166

So add up the raw premitigation damage and your bonus armor-- if that value is greater than 166, then the old thornmail does more damage back to the enemy than the new one will.


How much more health can you expect the most focused auto attacker to gain over time with this change, comparing the old thornmail to the new one?

The amount of health in either case is equal to: AfterMitigationDamage * LifestealPercentage

But we can use this equation: AfterMitigationDamage = RawDamageReceived * Mitigations

To incorporate the inequality above: AfterMitigationDamage / Mitigations + BonusArmor > 277

Mitigations can come from any source, be it damage reduction or armor. For example, 100 armor is a mitigation multiplier of 0.5, 200 armor is 0.3, 300 armor is 0.25 and 400 armor is 0.2

What this says is that the lower the multiplier due to mitigations, the greater the value of the expression AfterMitigationDamage / Mitigations, thus the greater the left hand side of the inequality, which stands in favor of the old thornmail.

To figure out precisely how much more healing you can expect, we can plug in some numbers. Lifesteal 20% Raw Damage 800 Bonus Armor 220 Total Armor 300 Damage Received without armor pen 200 Healing without armor pen 50 Damage Received with last whisper 328 Healing with last whisper 65.6 Old thornmail damage: 175 New thornmail damage: 47 DIFFERENCE: 128 per crit with these values

In the case for the old thornmail, you are doing 125 net damage to the enemy after their lifesteal is taken into account (with no enemy armor pen), or 109.4 net damage if the enemy has a last whisper. In the case for the new thornmail, the enemy is taking 17 net damage without last whisper, and 7.4 damage with last whisper.

#Thornmail strengths have been shifted from a super focused cheap anti auto attack item to something resembling an offensive version of randuins omen.

Riot is trying to kill the player expectations of thornmail being such a powerful item versus auto attackers that it does damage well above and beyond the enemy's lifesteal.

To put it simply, RIOT wants it to be possible for auto attackers to auto attack tanks and either not lose a significant amount of health with a standard amount of lifesteal, or gain some health if they stack a lot of lifesteal, regardless of what items the tank has or whether grievous wounds has been applied from another source.

#In the majority of games this simply means that the new thornmail will "turn off" the health drain from an auto attacker when the auto attacker is attacking you-- it won't do any real net damage to the attacker the way the current thornmail does.

I won't speculate as to whether the game would be better off with or without; but i suspect that if this change goes through other changes will need to be made to make lifesteal a unique passive to prevent stacking it.

13 Comments

Critkeeper2 votes

Had to double check my math, hard to believe some of the numbers.

Bump too though-- its interesting that everyone is complaining about new thornmail having no counter when in fact it is objectively worse at countering health drain from lifesteal than the old thornmail is.

Jorencice2 votes

{quoted}

Had to double check my math, hard to believe some of the numbers.

Bump too though-- its interesting that everyone is complaining about new thornmail having no counter when in fact it is objectively worse at countering health drain from lifesteal than the old thornmail is.

Did you take into account the 35%ish damage reductions due to mr that ADCs have simply due to being level 18?

Critkeeper1 votes

{quoted}

Did you take into account the 35%ish damage reductions due to mr that ADCs have simply due to being level 18?

no i didn't, but that isn't hard to figure.

just take the 17 or 7 damage above and multiply by 0.65 for 35% damage reduction for the case of the new thornmail.

For the old one, do the same thing-- 125 * 0.65 or 109.4 * 0.65

Jorencice2 votes

{quoted}

no i didn't, but that isn't hard to figure.

just take the 17 or 7 damage above and multiply by 0.65 for 35% damage reduction for the case of the new thornmail.

For the old one, do the same thing-- 125 * 0.65 or 109.4 * 0.65

That brings old thornmail to 75 ish damage.

And new thornmail up to would deal like 4 damage.

But with greivious wounds your making them only heal for 32 instead of 64 so you might as well be doing 36 damage.

That's also not including the cold steel passive though which can be quite a big hit to ADCs dps.

Although this math proves that thornmail really isn't going to be this super OP doom item that people are worrying abour. It might actually need buffs... hmmm. About a side grade to old thornmail.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

All I really wanted out of Thornmail was for it to prevent the enemy autoattackers from drain-tanking through my damage.

If it works, I'll be happy.

Critkeeper3 votes

{quoted}

All I really wanted out of Thornmail was for it to prevent the enemy autoattackers from drain-tanking through my damage.

If it works, I'll be happy.

It may be hard to believe but the old thornmail actually does more than counter health drain, regardless of the prevailing intuition or popular belief. It actually does some net damage to the enemy even after their armor pen and lifesteal.

The perception of marksmen being able to heal through damage is probably fueled by the fact that supports can actually heal and shield the marksman, and by the fact that if thornmail doesn't do anything to the opponent unless the opponent hits you.

If these changes go through I suspect auto attack oriented duelists, especially crit based ones, will become much stronger in duels versus more burly champions.

I suspect Tryndamere will become extremely strong because he is uniquely suited to forego defensive items, stack lifesteal, and obtain 85% crit with just two crit items. Expect Tryndamere to be able to actually lifedrain through the new thornmail even if you stack pure armor and no magic resist.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

The perception of marksmen being able to heal through damage is probably fueled by the fact that supports can actually heal and shield the marksman, and by the fact that if thornmail doesn't do anything to the opponent unless the opponent hits you.

And possibly also by the fact that the bright green healing numbers are very visible, but the dull red/violet damage numbers are not. If you only read the green +40 while not noticing the red -60, of course you'd think that the attacker healed on that attack.

Sujiren2 votes

I miss old thornmail, when it was 30% of all aa damage received reflect.

ChaosThief1 votes

If the ADC happens to run runaans and one of those bolts hits the tank, then it might be a different case.

Honestly though, I would assume this is to lessen the power of thornmail in return for making it harder for an ADC to survive after hitting the tank. Problem being it only lasts one second, so that really won't matter much...

AmetDeCrypt1 votes

giving it a flat base means it's actually better against mages weaving auto attacks now which is strange but I think the grevious wounds should do the trick of preventing lifesteal off the tank which works fine by me.

FenricsShield1 votes

Why do people downvote this stuff?

I tried to show similar math, and people just laughed at me...

It makes me rage when people say "Hey, as a Rammus main you're probably super excited about the new thornmail, aren't you?"

Critkeeper1 votes

I guess now is as good a time as any to bump this

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