Veigar is a great example of why the Community is not the best judge of balance.

BottleCapster··104 votes·5,765 views

Okay, so to get this out of the way first, this isn't a QQ thread about Veigar's current state of balance, but rather the way its been perceived.

To anyone not in the know, Veigar received his mini-rework in Patch 5.4 and has been receiving several buffs since his departure from the PBE due in part to the outrage of the community in response to the changes. Given that we're about to go into patch 5.21, Its safe to say that the community has been shitting on veigar for months now before he was rediscovered with his QoL buff to his W.

Now what about this gets under my skin? To be perfectly honest, its because the community is so polarized on what the balance between "good" and "bad" is for champions. Everyone was basically saying that Veigar was killed in 5.4, primarily due to the loss of consistency on his E, to the point that a rather vocal number of people would still belt out to the wind that he was still dead and gone, despite several patches of buffs going into him. They latched onto the fact that Veigar lost a little reliability, that they wouldn't even consider what it was he actually got from that nerf in the first place.

To go through Quickly, for the loss of reliability on Veigar's stun in 5.4 he's gotten:

Passive

  • Mana regen increased to 1.5% per 1% missing mana from 1% per 1% missing mana

Q

  • Range increased to 950
  • Missile speed increased to 2000 (BF)Fixed a bug where Baleful Strike would fail to cast if you got CCed during the cast.
  • Cooldown changed to 7 / 6.5 / 6 / 5.5 / 5 seconds from 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 4
  • Now a linear colliding skillshot, but can hit two targets
  • The passive will now generate AP on assists
  • (Now a Skillshot) W
  • Mana cost reduced to 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90
  • Cooldown reduced to 10 / 9.5 / 9 / 8.5 / 8 seconds
  • Cast time removed (previously 0.25 seconds)

E

  • Mana cost reduced to 80 / 85 / 90 / 95 / 100
  • Cooldown reduced to 18 / 17 / 16 / 15 / 14 seconds
  • Range increased to 700
  • Enemy dashes through Event Horizon's walls will stop at them instead
  • (No longer instant) R
  • Mana cost reduced to 125 at all ranks
  • Cooldown reduced to 120 / 100 / 80 seconds
  • (Loss of .2 Ap ratio) This is what it took for people to believe that Veigar was not only a strong pick, but an "overpowered" one. This is a massive list of buffs to veigar, no matter what you think, its thanks in part to the whining of people not willing to accept one particular change, that Veigar has become a contested, highly banned, and perceptually, if not quite literally Overpowered champion. And what did Veigar give up for this massive changelist? an Instant-cast AoE Stun, a horribly overpowered ability only gates by Veigar's low range, and the awkwardness of its hitbox. and losing a single target hitmark nuke at a whopping 650 range.

Its fine to give the balance team shit sometimes, hell they aren't perfect, and lord knows neither are we. They make some seriously questionable, and sometimes outright retarded changes, but in the case of veigar, i suppose i hope you got what you wanted. All you Veigar mains out there, i feel for you. Its gotta suck having a champion you dedicated yourself to all of a sudden become a FoTM pick, with a 53% ban rate as of the time of this post, with a large number of people who hate him for being unfair, and puts him right in the spotlight to get gutted by another balance nerf.

This is why the community doesn't head the live balance team. Because let's be honest, sometimes we have no idea how far is too far when determining how balanced a champion is or isn't.

106 Comments

7zhas1oVlI42 votes

Riot shouldn't listen to the balance forums as much as they do. Most of them are upset mains of the champion or low elo players who get smashed by a champion once and refuse to accept that they laned incorrectly and jump on the "OP" bandwagon.

BottleCapster10 votes

I would wholeheartedly agree with this. Sure sometimes the community has a point. Not all of our feedback is terrible, but a large portion of it comes with an incredible amount of bias for the champions we love. By and large, most of the people who complain on the forums don't think about the overarching reasons why champions become overpowered, or what truly makes them OP or UP. If they go on a losing streak because of a nerf that happened, too many are willing to just say that the champion is busted and unplayable rather than working around those changes, and fewer are willing to recognize why certain changes are made at all.

Again i wouldn't praise the balance team, because we see a lot of issues rise on their ends, things like giving power to places that a kit is already fine in, as opposed to what is needed. As ERockandRoll mentioned, most of Veigar's primary complaints were addressed to needing a tighter window for his E, and a bit more reliability on his W, which riot ducked and weaved around before adding the latter, and many weren't content with the former because they didn't want to understand why his E couldn't be instant, or why with his new ranges that inconsistancy for his E was a good thing. Its really easy to complain, anyone can do it. But balance with around 130+ champions? That shit is tough, and too many people don't respect that.

Athenes Lulu23 votes

He's been strong, but you know the power of the pros? Whoever they touched stains them forever.

That's the problem with the community, they don't know that other champs/roles that pros don't pick exist. Which leads to the QQ threads that they have no clue about.

It's like crying out for Anivia/Swain/Brand/Malz buffs simply because they have been underpicked.

SociopathFriend6 votes

If Riot touches Malz I'm grabbing my pitchfork- he's barely been touched in years and I like him the way he is; floating death incarnate.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

And the ultimate tool to say goodbye to assassins.

Stacona2 votes

Anivia is in a very good balance spot - Swain needs a rework, he is too overpowered right now and has weird, odd mechanics about him that shouldn't be in the game like damage amp (especially the way that it is) - Brand I would give him soft changes, but he is definitely not weak and scales well because of his passive, he is strong in early-mid-late game and this is a balance problem (overpowered)- Malzaher can use slight adjustment changes [maybe have his W the same but with an area silence and his Q can root enemies instead of silence granting better basic ability synergy and less ultimate reliant]

Erockandroll10 votes

Riot's philosophy seems to be "Break first, then balance."

Cause Veigar was basically no fun to play before hand, due to the fact that his E and W was way too unreliable. (for a glass cannon mage with no mobility.)

The main complaint I noticed is. "Revert his E, his W is too unreliable without it." Which of coarse riot wouldn't do since his E had counterplay issues being instantaneous. But if you reduce the complain. to "his W is too unreliable" then you would have something to buff.

Of coarse Riot tried messing with Cast range and CD before coming to a solution that worked. So naturally a little cleanup is required.

But over all, Veigar should feel fun/rewarding to play. Which is why his Reliability got buffed to this point. And he only needs a few scaling nerfs to be brought down to a more acceptable level.

LordGeovanni3 votes

balance? break first then nerf wither its still strong or unplayable riot seems to know just how op they want each and every champion though usually grouped by class

Very Hard Engage8 votes

veigar was at 38% win rate after patch 5.4 and demanded immediate changes, veigar still retained a 47% rate after all those above changes, and the comunity was still calling for buffs. what put him over the top was the recent one, NOT THE W "QOL BUFF" it was the AP on assists that did the job. and with extra DAMAGE his win rate rose to 52%. and was labeled "OP" despite still having all the same drawbacks, counters, and swing potentials

let me just say, the "w qol" "buff" makes zero difference as it still cant be used in a situation where the enemy isn't locked down.

Champion Skin3 votes

Veigar W is actually usable without CC because of the buff... not all that reliable but not impossible to hit (Veigar W is an OP ability which is only made balanced by how unreliable it is.... if this ability was anywhere near reliable it would need to be nerfed into the ground)

And you really think 20-100 AP is going to make Veigar that much stronger?

Dehorn2 votes

exactly... lets take a look at worlds where koo picked veigar vs fanatic. veigar had 10 assists. you get 10 ap per kill/assist so late game his passive gave him 100 ap... i just cant understand how people think veigar's winrate increased because he gets about an extra 100 ap late game.

imo the reason people are crying so much is because veigar counters the meta. we moved away from big tanks and mid is almost always a control mage... which veigar counters so... its the perfect enviroment for him. just like any champ/meta, you either adapt or die and cry on the forums. most people seem to choose option b.

Traxinator2 votes

Veigar's Q only gives 5 AP per kill or assist, not 10.

Dehorn1 votes

that makes the argument even worse. in my example, veigar got 50 ap late game through assists. thats not even a large rod...

Stacona1 votes

Because everyone is playing and complaining about support Veigar >.> its mid Veigar being the problem - you are an example of the people that do not know what the fuck they are talking about

Very Hard Engage2 votes

{quoted}

Because everyone is playing and complaining about support Veigar >.> its mid Veigar being the problem - you are an example of the people that do not know what the fuck they are talking about

veigar got undeniably gutted because his stun being used for flash plays and it would instantly end the late game team fights, 2 dead carries for the enemy team, games over, veigar had 80% pick ban as support. for the stun alone.

so mid veigar got gutted because?????????? 47 win rate EVEN WITH the instant aoe stun? because he was a trash champion, and people were giving up a true support champion entirely and turning bot lane into a farm fest, for the sole purpose of having veigar flash stun a carry late game, thats it.

veigar was never truly OP, it was in the pro team setting that it was finally discovered that his stun was too good, and all important to a team. and that the rest of his kit was lacking, and why he sat at 47% win rate for the longest time. because his stun literally carried him up, hes abilities are very lackluster.

im so glad i have you to fall back on for knowledge, please tell me, a veigar main, why veigar is so incredibly toxic, oh right, because you cant go full damage like you always do in every single other game you play and expect to win after the 40min mark after making a mistake and veigar is right there to capitalize on your mistake and win the game 4v5. when veigar stuns you and takes you out of the game.

Sasogwa6 votes

Nope, Veigar is in a fine spot right now. If anything, it's his raw damage that's slightly too strong (and nerfed on PBE so that's all right). Veigar didn't feel well at all to play and the QoL buffs were needed. The buff of Q, W and E reliability (delay, range, etc.) were ALL needed and very nice to have. Riot actually did a great job. If anything, they shouldn't have granted him AP on assists, despite it being logical as a mechanic, it gave him a bunch of free AP for an indirect buff he did not need.

RisenDarkKnight5 votes

No, veigar is here because of riot. All anyone wanted after dfg removal was like 50 more damage on his ult. Instead they gave his stun the huge delay. He dropped to low 40% winrate. So ppl asked for buffs. Then they gave him a couple minor ones. But it didnt' change much so they gave him a few more. Then he was fairly balanced and reached a 50% winrate. At this point, I saw no "buff veigar" threads for a few weeks. Then they buffed him again and put him over the top. That's on riot, not the community.

Champion Skin2 votes

Well the problem was that Riot kept buffing Veigar Q... and some minor buffs like less cooldown on W and R

However what he really needed was the change he got now to where his W had less delay.... as it finally made it somewhat useful on it's own Though this combined with all the other buffs have probably made Veigar too strong

TotalJerk4 votes

You know, even I a semi-main of Veigar myself was assured that he was overbuffed, then I saw him in the LCS, and realized that he can get countered pretty hard.

  • Super mobile champions can buy boots and dash run out before they get caught
  • blinking champions can just disregard it
  • Kalista can grab the support out of the stun
  • Mikael's and QSS also counter E pretty well.
  • Olaf can just run right through it, Sion can charge through
  • Champions with Blinks can totally disregard it.
  • Immobile mages typically have lots of range that allows them to stay so far that stunning them is incredibly difficult in addition to staying out of ult range.
Actually xPeke1 votes

{quoted}

  • Super mobile champions can buy boots and dash run out before they get caught
  • blinking champions can just disregard it
  • Kalista can grab the support out of the stun
  • Mikael's and QSS also counter E pretty well.
  • Olaf can just run right through it, Sion can charge through
  • Champions with Blinks can totally disregard it.
  • Immobile mages typically have lots of range that allows them to stay so far that stunning them is incredibly difficult in addition to staying out of ult range.
  1. Yes, but it requires reaction time. And who picks a slow mage versus a fast mobility champion anyway? It's called getting counterpicked.
  2. Not a lot of champions have blinks. Kassadin, Lissandra and Ekko. and a few others.
  3. Kalista can do that with everything.
  4. Just like any CC
  5. 2 champions out the 120+
  6. Again, blinks. not much champions with non-targeted blinks
  7. Yea, their abilities usually have lot's of range. not their Auto Attacks. Veigar can easily E on them with 700 range
Champion Skin1 votes

Again, blinks. not much champions with non-targeted blinks

Yes and no Most champions have this thing called flash which is a non-targeted blink

Yea, their abilities usually have lot's of range. not their Auto Attacks. Veigar can easily E on them with 700 range

Mages usually don't use their auto attacks much past laning phase... and in laning phase Veigar doesn't usually even use E unless he has to as he usually just hang back and try to get as much CS as possible and avoiding fighting as much as possible

Actually xPeke1 votes

And flash also has a 5 minute cooldown. If they use it to escape your E it's well worth it for Veigar.

Champion Skin1 votes

The problem is that if they flash over the wall they will likely flash towards Veigar and kill him as Veigar don't have any other ways to defend himself other then hoping Q + R is enough to 100-0 whoever is trying to kill him

Athenes Lulu1 votes

{quoted}

  • Olaf can just run right through it, Sion can charge through

item 3070 Vi item 3070 why do people always forget about me? My friend who religiously mains Veigar hates her with a passion. Just ult, forget about the stun, and punch him to death. Easy as that.

item 3157 disregards his burst if executed properly, even though this applies to fending oneself off from general burst anyways.

To be honest at least he's still counterable (just requires some outsmarting), and yet not overloaded. Would agree that he's overbuffed, though, but it's his general kit that would've still made him strong in the first place.

Old Man Teeto4 votes

Veigars rework DID nerf him.

They then added considerable power to his QWE.

His E is still weaker than before rework, but still insanely strong.

Her W became far more reliable post buffs.

His Q became INSANELY safe giving him better laning/poking tools to prevent being zoned.


The community was correct, Veigar was UTTER TRASH on the launch of his rework.

If you put enough jewelry into the trash, eventually it becomes worth something.

Akali is SO HOT4 votes

It's a good indication of how the majority of Gameplay and Balance has no idea what they're talking about and Bronze and Silver players shouldn't have a say in balance changes just because they circlejerk each other.

Canastus4 votes

Meanwhile Cassiopeia

lofi n chillhop3 votes

thank you

Rozzeta3 votes

Community complains about E nerf, how easy it is to escape it. Riot buffs Q, Community doesn't find Q buffs to be a fix to lack of reliability on E, and by proxy W. Riot buffs Q, Community insists on it still not being a fix to problems with E and W. Riot buffes E and W, leaves Q buffs. Community complains about Veigar being too strong.

That, over the course of 4 patches. IF you are a Veigar main (I'm not), having the champion buffed in the wrong place is terrible, because it means that Riot will soon gut him.

fééd l0rd3 votes

Same with Darius, Skarner and the other reworked champions. While beeing on PBE challenger players said they are insanely op and some said they don't want them to come live like that.

What did the majority of reddit and this board say? BUFF THEM YOU DESTROYED THEM.

And this is why Riot should not listen to bronze/silver players.

The Ellimiist3 votes

Meh I don't feel bad for viegar mains. Anyone who mains a champ should expect them to have a high banrate/be OP at some point in time.

SlytherinUmbreon1 votes

Velkoz The eye of Balance see's all

Dehorn3 votes

veigar won 3 games during worlds, 2 of which he did nothing and got carried. but because veigar isnt your standard mid that has been dominating LCS for the past year, everyone's head exploded.

Scorpionex3 votes

honestly i would be ok with the reverts of most of the buffs except the reliability buffs tbh ex: the w reliablity buff and the q missile increase done and done you now have a balanced champion :)

Enosetc2 votes

i will always be salty about this place getting veigar overbuffed because i tried so hard to get people to understand that he wasn't weak

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

Veigar is in a fine spot the only reason he is so strong is Assassins are weak right now I will say his small buff to his dark matter made him better maybe as a small NERF just slightly reduce the travel speed of his Q if anything

Meep Man2 votes

While the assist thing was kind of needed since it was weird that Veigar had to steal kills a lot in order to get fed, a lot of the other buffs weren't necessary. Also the cast time on W wasnt removed, the delay just starts at the beginning of the cast time now. If the cast time was removed, Veigar could move while casting his W at the same time like Vel'Koz Rift. If Veigar needs more nerfs past the current PBE ones, I would revert the E cool down buff.

Kitsuki052 votes

I played Veigar immediately after his reworked and concluded that he was stronger than ever before, and told people that it really wasn't all that different to compensate for the cast delay. Of course I get flamed and called retarded and whatnot, despite having won consistently with him it was chalked up to "playing against people who were bad". Then the pros play Veigar and show that the delay really wasn't that hard to compensate for, now he's suddenly OP broken.

chipndip12 votes

So Veigar is, but the juggernaut update isn't?

Nimble Manta2 votes

It's the community that deems veigar too powerful right now as well, so you're making the assumption that we're completely correct now? In my eyes, if no one complains about a champ, they're probably under powered. This community is pretty whiny, so if no one's whiny then uh... you know somethings wrong.

LGBTCute2 votes

Back in Season 1, there were certain champs people thought were "OP Champs". You could deal with them in one of two ways:

  1. Whine endlessly about them.
  2. Learn their counterplay, and win a lot more games because you knew how to easily beat the Flavor of the Month that you were often matched against.

Now it's Season 5, and.... nothing has changed. The community doesn't head the balance team because let's face it, the community is overall more interested in complaining than learning.

When I was a kid, my brother would get mad about Super Mario Brothers. Whenever he fell down a pit, he would scream, "This stupid controller doesn't work right!" or "This game cheats!" I always think of that when I see the threads whining about "OP champs". No, the computer isn't cheating, you just don't want to learn.

manbearswine2 votes

I like how you treat the huge buff to his w as "a qol change",yeah,getting another working ability is a "qol change"

Who wants to bet veigar will lose his op status completely if you undo this "qol change"?

BottleCapster1 votes

I call it a QoL change because nothing about the spell's functionality changed, they just shaved off the cast time. Is it a huge reliability buff? Yes, but let's face it, reliability on Veigar's W was something he's needed for a while to play cohesively, and numbers-wise, the skill wasn't touched with that last update. It still has the same drop-time (minus the cast time), same damage and same scaling. Quite literally the only thing they changed about it was making it easier to hit, which falls quite nicely under the category of Quality of Life, as it makes Veigar's time landing the ability much easier, without shifting its power anywhere else.

manbearswine2 votes

{quoted}

I call it a QoL change because nothing about the spell's functionality changed, they just shaved off the cast time. Is it a huge reliability buff? Yes,

Look thing about QoL buffs is that they are barely a buff,it's a core part of being qol,it's not just that,qol buffs are supposed to mostly feel better,lux predetonation for example is a minor buff with most pings and barely a buff with good ones,it mostly makes it feel more responsive,veigars buff makes easier to land a harder to avoid,it's not qol.

but let's face it, reliability on Veigar's W was something he's needed for a while to play cohesively, and numbers-wise, the skill wasn't touched with that last update. It still has the same drop-time (minus the cast time), same damage and same scaling. Quite literally the only thing they changed about it was making it easier to hit, which falls quite nicely under the category of Quality of Life, as it makes Veigar's time landing the ability much easier, without shifting its power anywhere else.

Yes but as the other (buff sion) thread has stated,the rest of his kit got stronger,so then when his w got a very serious buff,he went op,that's not saying that his w shouldn't have been buffed,but the community reaction is justified,he was meh before,and now is very strong.

The whole point in balancing is that eventually you get to a better point,not necessarily immediately with the changes,and I believe that veigar is some minor tuning(can we remove the stupid enemy ap ratio on his ult already?) away from being in a healthy spot unless riot decides to sejuani him and intentionally nerf him too hard.

He4rtkiller1 votes

Veigar is TONS of fun now. That's all I have to say. Good work Riot!

fééd l0rd1 votes

Yes he is fun to play I have to admit.

But he is not fun to play against.

He4rtkiller2 votes

I find it challenging to play against him and I like that. He may need some power tuning tho.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

You feel bad for the Veigar mains? Wait weren't they the ones who complained about how he was useless, and how riot killed their favorite champ? I'm sorry but it's mostly the mains who complained and got him over buffed. Now he is in this overpowered state because of them.

ApexInTheCircle4 votes

{quoted}

You feel bad for the Veigar mains? Wait weren't they the ones who complained about how he was useless, and how riot killed their favorite champ? I'm sorry but it's mostly the mains who complained and got him over buffed. Now he is in this overpowered state because of them.

We did complain about most of the components of his kit being useless. Mainly his W and it's impractical use as a nuke without reliable CC. However Riot continued to Buff his Q when all we wanted was some reliability put back in his W, I don't think that was too much to ask for. But as of now since they overbuffed his Q and Gave him some reliability on his W plus the ap per assist it has put him over the edge.

Honestly I say redo the buffs to his Q, but we all know Riot never will just undo something. instead they have to completely turd level a champ. I.E Riot doesn't like being wrong.

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