Essence Reaver and the Issue of Marksman Itemization

BottleCapster··19 votes·2,063 views

So there's been talk around about Everyone's favorite misplaced item item 3508 . I started mulling over why the reaver fails its intended duty, and it got me thinking about how ADC itemization works as a whole, and where there are some pretty fundamental flaws. There are currently two major ways ADCs function: Those who are auto-attack reliant I.E. Ashe Vayne Tristana , and those who are more AD Caster types, I.E. Graves Ezreal Varus

What i find interesting about this is that besides maybe one or two items, all carries build virtually the same, and while riot introduced item 3508 to alleviate the mana-burn that the latter class uses, nearly every ADC build is the same. And it struck me, Riot built item 3508 as the response to item 3072 , Hence why it has its Lifesteal stat, and why they have the same build path. The inherant flaw here though is that essentially, ER is tackling an item that is already quite useful to AD Caster variants for its shield, High damage and LS, and is generally the more "Upfront" of the two major Lifesteal items carries have at their disposal. Instead of item 3072, ER should be in contention for item 3031 .

Okay, but why? The base difference between the carry classes is their dependence on either abilities or autos for the majority of their damage. But because Crit is such a valuable stat, both types of carries get it regardless. a Graves may not get as much value out of the crits as say Ashe, but both carries will innevitably purchase IE, because as an item and as a mechanic IE and crit chance/damage are just too strong. The base issue is that while Carries should be building around their strengths, and to a degree they do, they still find themselves in the awkward scenario of choosing items that philosophically don't quite matchup to their skillset. Items like item 3031 item 3046 and item 3153 should primarily bought by AS carries, whilst items that favor raw damage and abilities like item 3072 item 3087 and item 3508 should more reflect the need for bursts of power via a champion's abilities.

So Crit Chance QQ Thread? Not so much on the QQ side, but errs more on the side of game health. Its been said for a long time that Critical Chance and the factors of RNG mechanics should be removed from League, and things like the new Ashe rework only go further to seal the idea that reliability is what the community wants out of this mechanic. Because Ashe doesn't need to hope that she crits and instead knows she will, she is a more reliable carry, with more clearly defined Trading power. If we were to make Crit chance adopt something of a similar mechanic to how Ashe uses it, to make it More heavily identified as an AS item line, rather than a catch-all, then we'd have room to diversify the options that carries have to choose from, ironically enough by giving the items themselves more understood identities. And ER....? The reason that item 3508 suffers as an item, is because it has a poor build path that goes hand in hand with a far more attractive item, it has no way to assist its Caster Carries through the times they are most vulnerable, and overall it lacks the oomph that a late game item should have, especially when compared to the other BFG items. While i couldn't tell you what kind of mechanic would set it above item 3031 other than solving the glaring issue of Crit Dominance, essentially that is the location that ER belongs. Not contending as a LS item, but contending as a late game damage item for Mana-intense Marksmen.

43 Comments

Knight SoIaire 3 votes

i think i dont understand one thing

you want er to compete with ie ... but do you want it to compete as items or as buildpath

so ad caster carries get er and dont dwell in crit or ad casters have to chose which synergizes with them better to take it first ?

i personaly would like the first choice ... an item that would allow a branch of adc's to discard crit since crit is so core to our entire marksman class taking it away or tweaking it means that we can destroy the entire class if we would lift some pressure to the redesigned er ... making changes to crit becomes more realistic

also the thing that bothers me most with er is that there is no identified playstyle for it ad casters rely on crit from ie anyway ... so their diference from normal carries gets blurred out by crit unifying the core of their playstyles into autoatacking

also a random opinion on additional er passive that could work with caster carries your autoatacks deal % more damage based on your cdr as on hit effect basicaly the item would shift the focus from stacking as+crit+ie+ad to stacking cdr+ad+ as

the damage per auto wouldnt be comparable to ie but frequent ability casts would make up for it

one buildpath could exclude the other while fighters couldnt acces this so easily since it doesnt work with spell casts and would require at least 3 item commitement into ofense ... and well it gets more effective the more you commit ... so meele guys could get realy punished for getting in that area

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

well this one seems to die fast

Sorgklaan2 votes

I do feel that IE is too much of a must buy.

Atleast with mages, there are plenty of other situational picks to choose from before getting Deathcap, like zhonya, ludens, morello, grail, lyandries, rylais...

But marksmen almost universally rush IE, unless you're lucian ( triforce/youmuu ) or corki ( triforce )

All the mage items are getting reworked currently, I feel all the ADC items need to be as well.

Linna Excel2 votes
  1. I don't think it's ADCs only. Anyone with AD scalings, mana, and an interest in CDR would like it.
  2. Its biggest issue is that by the time you get it finished, your mana issues aren't quite as bad as they are in the early game.
  3. I think its second biggest problem is BT is a direct competition to it and offers you more life steal as well as that shield.
  4. ADC builds are pretty limited so people aren't going to want to vary from them too much.
  5. 10% cdr is nice, but you really need more and that's where the AD champs have issues. 10% just isn't good enough on its own to justify something like this.
BottleCapster2 votes
  1. Totally hear you on this. Its a tough call to make an item that ADCs want but bruiser's don't. And much of that i feel will actually take its place in the Sustain utility of whatever the full item could turn out to be. Most bruiser's aren't too mana intensive, and if they are, usually they go for item 3004. Which could be developed as the more bruiser-ish variant of ER, or Vice Versa.
  2. Mana issues early game needs to be addressed in the component recipe for the item, and there's already talk of incorporating Forbidden Idol, since it has no inherant AD or AP requirements and has the stats we're looking for in Mp/regen and CDR.
  3. This is why I propose making it a competitor to IE and not BT. BT is a great item for AD casters, and there's no inherent reason that ER needs to contend with it. Chop the Lifesteal and add more fitting stats or a more suited passive and that problem is rectified.
  4. Change is a constant, and if they manage to make a sweeping change to make ADC build versatility more intuitive i feel that the community would adapt.
  5. Full Item may be better to have 20%, but this runs hand in hand with the 1st problem, so it's not so easy to answer.
Linna Excel2 votes

The problem with a functional option to IE means everyone is just going to get both if possible. The only way you can keep them from getting both is if both have the same unique passive in which case, why not just go IE if you are an ADC?

IE works well because it multiplies your damage by quite a bit. It and Dcap are the must gets for the same reason. If you want anything to compete with those items you need a large base of stats and some kind of big multiplier that demands you get it. This is also why void staff and last whisper are core, they are huge multipliers too.

I really think you've got a thematic problem in that ER is a tool for sustaining and what you are asking for isn't sustain. You are asking for another type of force multiplier. That's okay to ask for but it's not essence reaver. So then you've got to ask yourself how are you going to multiply damage? Let's say you drop the sustain for a buff to AS, then everyone who scales off of AS is going to get this and might get IE as well. Vayne and Ashe become even worse late game nightmares. Or you make it 20% cdr, well now it's going to be mandatory on riven who would get this, BC, and boots that aren't CDR. If you make it a percentage buff on all AD, then everyone with an AD scaling will have to buy it, and AA champs will still get IE a lot. You make it ipenetrate armor then it, LW, bork, and BC makes every tank irrelevant and brings back the assassin meta.

The only way you make it an option for IE is if they both are crit weapons with the same unique passive in which case you go back to the original issue of why buy this instead of the original item.

BottleCapster2 votes

Which is precisely why Crit needs to be looked at. The way that Crit works in the game is currently too broad, and not specialized, hence the issue we have with IE having no competitors. Taking the AP itemization options in mind keep in mind that currently there are no "useless" AP items that build out of Big Daddy NLR. Zhonya's, Luden's, and Rabaddons all have powerful case uses, and work very well in tandem with each other, which is an issue that apparently is already being looked into. For ER to be a fitting counteroption to IE, it needs stats that Ad casters want, but are less appealing to AS carries like Vayne or Ashe . And essentially to do that, we need a reevaluation of the way that Crit is handled in game, and make it less of a catch-all for the Marksmen class.

As is, i agree, It is nigh impossible to make IE less appealing without 20% CDR, and then we have bruisers, like Riven to deal with. (But to be honest Riven's Issues go much further than her itemization options).

If we manage to make Crit less Par for the course, we enable the opportunity to give solid identities to other AD items, like item 3508 , and that's really what i'm trying to get at in this post.

MagnumStein1 votes

going off the thought of item 3508 being a competitor to item 3031

stats: 70-80 AD 15%-20% Crit chance 10 armor pen or 10% CD

Unique passive: landing a crit restores 8%-10% of maximum mana(maybe too much, but crits don't happen all the time)

this would make it a direct competitor to item 3031 and make it pretty much just appealing to ADC's cause of crits restoring mana instead of just damage, which also makes it appealing to not get both item 3031 and item 3508 cause you want to crit more often to restore mana, so you'll get the other crit items.

would that be good enough or would everyone still get item 3031 you think? I think this would pair well with item 3046 cause more chance and faster attacks.

NeoScout2 votes

blame IE

3TWarrior1 votes

I think essence reaver would be more viable if it had a lower attack damage but mixed critical, life steal and damage

imagine if it had 40 damage, 15% crit and 10% life steal?

it'd still be weaker than the more specialized items, but it wouldn't harm a carry's build and would cost less with these stats, but I assume it would need something to compensate, because it would still be a "dump it" item

BottleCapster1 votes

Interesting proposal, but which item does it contend for in a carry's inventory? My guess would be shiv/PD, but then what is the point of the crit chance if you sacrifice AS to get it? In this situation you'd have to get your AS elsewhere to make that crit chance do anything for you, and that would come in the facilitation of a core AS item like item 3153 , and would inevitably feed into IE. Then we have the issue of ER's niche as a mana item. While AS carries can run out of mana quite easily, they aren't as dependent on it as Caster Carries, who the item was made for.

Overall i think it might have potential, but it could possibly split the focus that a Caster carry should be focused on, which is their core damage being Kit-based rather than Auto-based.

That said more ideas are always welcome! I have a good feeling if we all put our heads together we can find a good way to fulfill ER's niche, and hopefully diversify Carry itemization in the process ^_^

Vistha Kai1 votes

IMO, they should carry out with the Soul Sickle item that would build into Essence Reaver. Basically item 3144 of item 3508.

BottleCapster1 votes

Fixing ER's Build path is definitely something that needs to happen, and i totally support the idea of making a proper build item to base Reaver's mana gain off of. Though i do support the item 3114 argument quite a lot. I decided not to mention it too much since there's already a thread floating around about incorporating Forbidden idol into the build path and i didn't want to step on toes since the majority of my argument bases around the lack of "true" options when it comes to our lord and savior item 3031

Vistha Kai1 votes

Actually I hate Forbidden Idol in Morello.

It's like the cheapest way ever to reach 20% CDR for a mage, it's not even funny, even if Athene outclasses it in mana department.

But in case of Essence Reaver which would need to have BF in it's build path it's not a problem.

Still Lifesteal can't be pulled out of nowhere and the Idol is already too expensive to put Vamp Scepter into the build path. IMO, 1200 gold should be max for the "lesser" Essence Reaver.

BottleCapster2 votes

Simple way to address that may be to remove the lifesteal in general and buff it in different ways. As i said above, i feel that ER is best developed as an alternative to IE, not BT which outclasses it in sustain and utility by far. I don't disagree with the idea of a "component Reaver" however.

Wickedfates1 votes

nothing in your breakdown of the situation commented on the support that the adc has... this is a huge flaw i see in your argument as riot has created the meta that has an adc with a support..... so that means every adc is in fact buffed depending on the support they have....

without discussing this variable in full your argument is only at most half fleshed out

BottleCapster1 votes

As a support main I can attest that complimentary champions work their best in sync, but tell me, does the fact that I have Sona or Nami affect how my personal build is when they aren't by my side? Is the virtue of having a support really justification for poor itemization options throughout the entire Marksman class? The fact that champion's have synergy with each other doesn't mean that the items a champion must buy have to be gimped as a result.

The reason i didn't comment on Supports is that quite frankly, this thread isn't about them. Its about Carry itemization. The balance that goes into bot lane's duo role is pent up in the way carries do damage and the cost of their items, but not the effects themselves. That said, since the removal of the little used Mana Manipulator Item, and the removal of Soraka's Mana infusion, Supports no longer interact with carry mana, and therefor they don't interact with the mana issue that ER was built to address in Caster Carries.

I love supports, they're my mains, but they aren't quite relevant in the discussion of the itemization of a different class.

Wickedfates1 votes

i take back my comment, after you explain it like this i see i was misunderstanding and commenting wrong

BottleCapster1 votes

No worries, I'm glad you bothered to voice your opinion at all. No argument is without scrutiny, and lord knows there are things i've probably not thought out enough either :D.

Mob Psycho 1001 votes

I think ER should have a new buildpath.

item 1038 +item 3134 + 563g = 3400g

Stats: +80 Attack Damage +10% Cooldown

UNIQUE Passive: +10 Armor Penetration UNIQUE Passive: Restores 2% to 8% of the damage dealt by auto attacks as Mana. The effect increases based on missing Mana.

That way, it has some usefulness as an item that BT and IE dont have. It's relatively cheaper and includes another item to build out of from Brutalizer. I made the armor pen unique so people dont abuse Brutalizer and Essence Reaver. Youmuu's is still okay to build with it though.

BottleCapster1 votes

I've seen this suggestion floating around before, and while i wouldn't mind more things building out of Brutalizer, I think that one of ER's biggest issues is the common argument that "Its a late game solution to an early game problem". Thus to me the issue of its buildpath would make sense to give some form of mana sustain to help them make it through Early game. A heavy item with Flat pen could have interesting use, but it might see more use on snowballing Fighters and Bruisers than ADCs who usually get item 3035 for ArmorPen anyways.

Mob Psycho 1004 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ashe cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=a4kOwLIb,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-06-18T20:48:02.792+0000)

I've seen this suggestion floating around before, and while i wouldn't mind more things building out of Brutalizer, I think that one of ER's biggest issues is the common argument that "Its a late game solution to an early game problem". Thus to me the issue of its buildpath would make sense to give some form of mana sustain to help them make it through Early game. A heavy item with Flat pen could have interesting use, but it might see more use on snowballing Fighters and Bruisers than ADCs who usually get item 3035 for ArmorPen anyways.

True.

I think the best thing to do then, would to just have a new item for the build

item 1004 +item 1036 + 360g = 900g

  • 20 attack damage
  • 50% base mana regeneration

UNIQUE Passive: Restores 1% to 5% of damage dealt by auto attacks as mana. The amount increases based on missing mana.

New build would have that item + item 1038 + 1000g = 3450g

+80 attack damage +50% Mana regen +10% cooldown

with its current passive. Lifesteal isn't really needed, imo.

BottleCapster2 votes

Definitely an upgrade from where we are now, and may have the ability to help people try out the Item with the stats that it has natively. Could definitely be a good mid-ground since i have a feeling Riot may not be so keen on the idea of Revamping the Crit mechanic. It definitely would solve the issue of the early mana sink for caster carries.

RottedApples1 votes

perhaps item 1037 + item 1004 just to force the casters to wait just a bit longer before having all the mana sustain? Idk though

Old Man Teeto1 votes

Actually the problem with item 3508 is that the champions who need the mana the most need mana and regeneration since they don't want to spend the entire time auto-attacking the wave every other wave to make up for their spells.

item 3070

Varus Ezreal already purchase Tears frequently for their caster oriented builds. This option alone is superior since the total cost is 700g to solve their mana issue immediately, and gives a strong late game slot-efficient item around 25 minutes for great cost efficiency too. The drawback is your immediate fight power is diminished in return for being able to spell sling for far longer.

If Essence Reaver was item 3070 + item 1038 maintaining the 1,000 mana pool increase and regeneration but gave 80 AD and the passive + CDR, it would be more widely used as it gives a different power spike window than Manamune, and you can start BF sword first buy since you don't have to rush tear charges to ensure a quick transformation.

BottleCapster1 votes

The issue with ER's Passive is one i was just thinking about actually, in that it has this really strange "Spend mana to get mana" kind of ordeal, which was actually part of why i was considering item 3114, as it gives both Early CDR which Caster carries don't get to buy often, and mana regen to help their early games without requiring Tear's stack minigame.

That said Tear definitely has potential for the slot, but i felt that Tear's build path was pretty nice already and had that option available for Carries who could put it to its most effective. Also i definitely think it needs to keep BFG in its path, not only for ease of use, but to help cement it as a powerhouse item, rather than as a "quirky buyin".

Slamurai Jack1 votes

I personally build Ezreal with item 3078 item 3508 item 3158 item 3153 item 3035 item 3072. You still burn through tanks decently fast with the botrk and AS, your poke hurts a ton, and you're so slippery with so much lifesteal that you're unduelable and uncatchable.

PROJECT Bear1 votes

I think the idea of having a smaller version of ER in its build path is great. this doesn't need to change any of its final stats.

I sometimes build ER with muramana on poppy as mura's procs twice on Q. however, between tear's charging and the fact that ER's build path doesn't give much until ER is finished, it's a very late game power combination. if ER gave some mana reg on attack before it's finished, I think ER would see more usage.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

But crit dominance is why adcs are in the game at all... If you take that out, there's basically no reason to play them. They are good because the later the game goes, the more reliable and harder hitting their crits get. It's what defines them.

You separate them into two camps, but fail to see that for late-game graves and late-game varus, autos are incredibly important. They are casters when they trade in lane, sure. But in late game teamfights, they are still autoing a lot, ESPECIALLY after tanks became viable again. Teamfights last awhile now. Carries need crits.

PROJECT Bear1 votes

{quoted}

But crit dominance is why adcs are in the game at all... If you take that out, there's basically no reason to play them. They are good because the later the game goes, the more reliable and harder hitting their crits get. It's what defines them.

You separate them into two camps, but fail to see that for late-game graves and late-game varus, autos are incredibly important. They are casters when they trade in lane, sure. But in late game teamfights, they are still autoing a lot, ESPECIALLY after tanks became viable again. Teamfights last awhile now. Carries need crits.

crits average out to just a % increase in damage. if you substitute all crit stats in game to % increase of total AD, nothing will change, except for when you are poking with 1 or 2 AA

BottleCapster1 votes

Crits aren't what makes Carries viable, its only part of their damage. The reason we have Marksmen is that they have the highest DPS and siege power of all the roles. Likewise, if RNG Damage Spikes are the only thing that keep Marksmen viable, then I'd think we'd have a much bigger problem to deal with. Carries will natively obtain powerful autoattacks from the way that AD works with their ability scaling, so yes Auto attacking is a very important part of their damage cycle, but The argument that I'm making is that as a Stat, we have created a problem by which, regardless of your character's damage philosophy, Crit Chance/Damage are universal traits with no real choice involved.

I'm pretty sure i'm preaching to the choir here when i say that AD itemization is far stricter than what AP characters have access to, as the spectrum of powerful and viable items that cover a large range of effects and strategies is much more lenient, even if certain build paths are more optimal.

By creating more identifiable item patterns, we have the ability to set up scenarios wherein Carries have the potential to build less rigidly, and open up build paths to them that previously were gated by this overwhelming need to Stat yourself for Crit Chance, Which invariably takes up a third of a Carry's current item path. Likewise in your comparison of Graves and Varus you aren't dealing with the reality that Caster Carries have tendency to Fall off harder late-game than AS based Carries, and its precisely for the reason you say. Since AS carries depend on their autos to carry their kits, they tend to have much more powerful late games wherein they take advantage of their greater DPS as opposed to the AD Caster Who trades some of their late game power for early-mid game burst.

Since Varus has a bit of a hybrid pattern in his kit, let's make a more concrete example here.

Graves vs. Vayne

Late game, Vayne's power-spike is at its peak, while Graves' is starting its decent. While they both do great amounts of damage, prolonged battles will see Vayne Victorious by virtue of her DPS, while short battles Favor Graves and his burst. While they both Use Auto Attacks, Vayne's Kit is meant to facilitate those Autos, whereas Graves' isn't. As mentioned below, there's other ways to make up for the loss of what is currently the Crit damage system, and having % increase in the same vayne of Rabaddon's isn't out of the question.

Likewise, remember that Critical Chance is an unreliable damage source. In a fight you may get 3 crits, and just as well you may get 0, which creates the annoying situation wherein your damage output, even if it spikes, is inconsistant at best, and that RNG mechanic, can and will mess you up given the time. A while ago Riot claimed that they wanted to start removing aspects of RNG in their game, and To be perfectly honest, I do think they're a bit scared to tackle this giant that is the Critical Chance system, being the largest and if i'm not mistaken, only RNG mechanic to remain in the game today. Riot can do better, We can do better, and saying that "This is the way it is and ADCs are useless without it" Does nothing to rectify the issue, and if right brings up further problems that need to be addressed.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Can't agree fully.

Since crit is rng related, it means that the more crit chance you have, the more reliable the damage is. Relating to the others classes, adcs enjoy a strong late game compared to the others, as a whole. That is why they are protected bot lane with a support in the first place; the goal is to allow them to farm into those crit items and allow that multiplicative scaling to work for them.

If you have an alternate itemization path, it needs to mirror that reality. Something like a %AD rabadon's-like item could do that, but then you're still pigeon-holing your carries into this specific item... same problem. In fact, this is WHY AP items are getting an overhaul; it actually isn't that diverse right now. As outlined in the red post relating to those changes, only burst mages really fit meta now, and it's DIRECTLY because of itemization (at least in part)

Now, you make this claim that crit could be done away with. I agree. It could. There are other ways to enforce the scaling. But I, for one, kind of like crit. It isn't so bad. I like the random factor. It adds spice. Could they improve the way they do the items? Sure. It can always be better. But I like crit. I like how it interacts with the adc's kits. I think it's plenty healthy as a game mechanic. None of your arguments are bad, but it hinges on the assumption that crit is bad. I don't think it is.

As for essence reaver, Rioters have plainly stated that it's INTENDED to be a niche item. They don't WANT half the adcs buying it. That was never the point.

Having said that, I have great success with it on Varus, just as it is. It's a great item if you adjust your playstyle accordingly.

RottedApples1 votes

Kalista most kalistas would like to have a word with you

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

also most of triforce users

Mister Support1 votes

Instead of the item having lifesteal, how about giving the crit chance? Make it build out of a cloak of agility instead. Total cost would be lowered to 3100 from 3200. So in total it would have instead

  • 70 AD (taking away the 10 AD from Vamp Scepter)
  • 20% Crit Chance
  • 10% Cooldown Reduction Unique Passive - Basic Attacks restore mana equal to between 2% and 8% of physical damage dealt, based on missing mana.

The CDR would help it synergize with other caster items such as item 3078 , plus the crit chance further enhances the synergy.

The Trent1 votes

what if they gave it multiple build paths so certain champions had a easier time building it. Like what if they had 2 versions or ER instead of just one.

RottedApples1 votes

This is kinda where i've been with this item for a long time. I never thought about it competing with crit but I always went BT because for slightly more i got more lifesteal and a shield. I always thought "why wouldn't anyone want BT over Essence?"

Another potential problem i always saw with the item was that it is mana sustain for caster adcs but then forces aaing to access ANY of the sustain. I agree with someone elses reply here saying a faerie charm could go into the item giving it some base sustain.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

ER is still great buy on Lucian. He can even build full armor pen/caster build + IE and still 1v1 (1shot with ability and auto+passive) any "lategame" adc.

WillHealForHonor1 votes

Too long post.. Essence reaver needs not to be a depended.. Maybe u could make it refund mana when u hit a spell or something like that..

Crowe Stalker1 votes

{quoted}

Too long post.. Essence reaver needs not to be a depended.. Maybe u could make it refund mana when u hit a spell or something like that..

It's currently being debated as a possible alternative to item 3031 Infinity Edge for AD Casters like Graves, Varus and the like who don't really utilize Critical Strikes as much as getting off a full rotation.

WillHealForHonor1 votes

What i meant was that i needs to not be AA depended.. and instead work off of something else.. because if ur in aa range it often wont be an extended fight with poke.. :P

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

The biggest problem with ER is that it has the same build path as BT, that's about it.

You have the BFS and Vamp and think 'Hm, which to build?' but chances are, you're not extremely gated by mana anymore, and the fact that BT gives double the amount of lifesteal as well as the overheal shield gives it a clear step up from ER.

It really needs a 'baby' version to help carries out when they need it.

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