A retrospective on Karma's Lore

BottleCapster·Apr 4, 2018·46 votes·9,765 views

Once more our dear Ionian duchess has gotten herself into a spot of bother with the newest Lore update, so I figured I might as well chime in to take a more holistic view on where Karma has been, and where she seems to be going in the upcoming future. For the purposes of this, I'll be examining Karma across all Three incarnations, and taking a stab at some of the more interesting aspects that her updated lore might be leading to.

(As a disclaimer, I'm going to just be taking the Bios into account, and this examination is before any flavor stories. I'm hoping to reconcile my ideas about Karma with this post, and hopefully we'll all get a better idea of this character and what we think works and what doesn't in regards to her state in the story )

#Prework Karma

Before we can talk about how Karma's lore reflects her now, we should probably take a moment to see the paths' that she's walked before. To put things into perspective, Karma was originally released on February 1st, 2011, as an Ionian champion to the Institute of War, overseen by the summoners. During this period of time, the actual setup for the League of Legends was far more literal, which meant that each champion who came to the game needed some sort of justification as to why they were part of the League. Here we start to see some of the core aspects of Karma's character start to arise.

Starting off, Karma is characterized here as a Diplomat who was forced into action by the invading Noxian forces. Some of the more notable emphasis in this variant of Karma focused on her ability to settle issues peacefully but also her willingness to fight on the front-lines with her allies, ultimately becoming a figurehead of the Ionian resistance. She was a poised woman with an unshakable demeanor whose calmness in the face of crisis earned the respect of her allies and the fear of her opponents. In the minds of her mentors, Karma was someone who could not only weather a storm, but calm it.

Rework Karma

On March 29th, 2013, after having been in a muddled state of balance for a long time, Karma finally received her rework, and with it the eternal ire of an incredibly vocal number of old-school Karma players. Her kit became much more stream-lined and overall she received a much more overtly aggressive kit, trading some of the more thematic elements of Karma's kit with one more in-tune with the idea of Karma as a battle hardened leader attempting to find a new path after the national tragedy of the invasion of Ionia.

Once more, Karma is torn between traditionalist pacifism and retributive resistance in the face of the Ionia's invasion. However, in this version of her lore we see something more specific, and that's a distinct failure of pure pacifism. When Karma's village elders attempt to peaceably solve their issued by contacting the Noxian generals, they are killed, as their attempts at passive resolution are seen as weakness by the Noxians they're appealing to. Understanding that a pure traditional approach will not work, Karma chooses to find a middle road, becoming a powerful leader among the resistance as her Prework self had, but this time not burdened with the story connections to the Institute of war. Without needing an arbitrary reason to fight, Karma was instead brought to a state where she not only had a part to play in the invasion itself, but in the aftermath of her nation's tragedy. She attempts to find a way to create a lasting peace for her nation by combining the strength that she and her fellow Ionians learned in the gauntlet of war, with the wisdom and precaution of Ionia's religious tradition. to Rework Karma, the ideals you espouse are only as effective as your resolve to see them to fruition.

Avatar Karma

Now we come to Karma's newest iteration. There are definitely aspects of the old lore that's persisted here, notably the clash of idealism with the reality of war, as well as Karma's confrontation with a Noxian general, both of which end in his death. Similar to her Prework lore where she was the daughter of antique sellers, Darha is a commoner in the beginning, but this time instead of being a potent speaker or diplomat, Darha is essentially possessed by the spirit of an Ionian spiritual leader, by the title of Karma. What's particularly interesting in this variant is that Karma's ascension is beset by a loss of identity, as the reincarnating spirit of the Karma begins to crowd out the voice of Darha's host body.

Intriguingly enough, in line with what we've gone over before, the spirit of the Karma, much like the Ionian Monks from her previous lore variants, espouses traditional notions of pacifism, but does notably have a little wiggle room as Darha manages to convince her collective to a single kill, even if she ends up going overboard, and thus earning the scorn of her collective consciousness. Unfortunately, while we are told in this lore that Darha is headstrong and independent, beyond managing to convince the collective to a kill, we see very little of Darha's actual personality in the bio. Because of that, determining Karma's rationality is next to impossible beyond the obvious allusions to Karma and Dharma at the beginning, at least until the Flavor story comes out.

My Thoughts

Overall I have to say that I'm not a big fan of the direction that they've taken Karma, but I do see some really interesting concepts that could be explored in the Flavor story. Starting off, I think one of my biggest issues with this new lore is the more passive nature of Darha as a character, and subsequently the de-emphasis of Karma as being a strong-willed woman and more of being a passive instrument of her new collective consciousness.

One of the biggest moments for me in this bio is where Karma loses control and destroys the whole ship with the Noxian general. It's a show of power from Karma, but more importantly following this, the "punishment" that Karma gets is the loss of the voices who've been crowding out Darha's voice since she was inhabited. For me this was a great moment, because it seemed to allude to a greater issue of self for Darha as a host to the Karma spirit, but instead of Darha using this loss as a way of choosing her own destiny, we instead see her immediately go into atonement mode, understanding she did something wrong and working to regain the voices that used to torment her when she was younger.

The early aspects of the story show how the Karma spirit was breaking Darha's mind, and that if she hadn't been able to get in contact with the Monks, that she would have been consigned to spend her days in treatment. The voices are benevolent in intent, but swallow their host whole as it seems, and Darha finally getting sole custody of her body to me should have felt at least somewhat empowering, even if less than desirable. Instead of being a bittersweet moment for her though, the bio makes it explicit that this was bad, and Darha should feel bad about regaining her sense of self. She is not a person, she is a title, and for me that really takes away from the beautiful badass she used to be.

My second primary issue comes in the delivery of the Karma's pacifist philosophy. Early on, it's explicitly stated that the Karma understands that those who do bad will receive bad in kind, your standard Karmic flare, but what makes this more questionable is the emphasis that because this is something that will happen, that there is no need to respond, and moreso that this is an undeniable truth. What immediately becomes an issue though is that while the bio has told us that the Karma's beliefs are right, we've seen no proof as to how it is right, and no persuasion that this ideal is correct. It's presented as right, and that's it, and that leaves a sour taste in my mouth, because the bio does not give evidence for the Karma spirit's understanding of karmic retribution.

The example scenario is of Darha losing control of her power, creating a net gain for her people by killing a host of invaders, and subsequently being lauded by her fellow Ionians. The only force that is shown to disapprove of this resolution is the Karma, and by extension Darha herself, who has been taught the ways of the Karma. Because the Karma is the only force which provides the cost of Darha's outburst here, the cost of shedding pacifist idealism is entirely brought about by the one extolling its virtues. Had Darha inadvertently escalated the tensions and caused more trouble for her poor handling of the situation and brought more trouble to her people because of it, the Karma may have had a point, as you could make the argument that the Karma's pacifist ideals serve as a sort of floodgate for escalating emotional recoil by hindering your opponent's moral justifications for fighting you. Darha's ability to convince the Karma to specific action would then be reminiscent of Karma's prior iterations, being a pacifist at heart who takes action where she believes it is needed. However, since Darha's punishments were all internal, we see no reason as to why she shouldn't exercise her power to help her nation and be a resistance leader like she has in both of her prior forms.

Finally, to be less dramatic and negative I want to talk about some of the aspects of Avatar Karma that I think are really interesting. While I don't like the fact that Karma has become a living spirit embodying the very traditionalist notions that all her previous incarnations fought against, the potential to explore Darha's sense of self and identity in the wake of a greater collective being revered by others is one that I really do want to be explored, especially since I don't see riot getting rid of this setup. Since Darha wasn't born with this spirit but rather possessed as the previous Karma had died months before Darha had her visions, the balancing of trying to keep your own individuality as the world clamors for a version of yourself you never asked to be, there's a lot of room for her to butt heads with her spiritual responsibilities, as well as to establish herself as her own individual Karma. Because Darha has some swing over the Karma spirit, there's still potential for her to make that third path she's been working to achieve in her prior incarnations.

Conclusion

Overall I think doing this post has helped put Karma's character into perspective for me, and if you happened to make it this far down my wall of text, hopefully you have a better idea of who she is and maybe even have found some additional aspects about her incarnations that inform your opinions of this lore update. While I don't think I have a more positive outlook for Avatar Karma, I think I've come to understand what the character means to me. Either way, let me know what you think, is Karma's new lore as bad as people are saying, or do you like the new direction? What aspects of Karma do you think are most important? And finally, which iteration of Karma's lore do you think is your favorite? I put the link to Karma's history wiki page in so you can go read all her previous lore entries yourself. That said, thanks for reading and I look forward to potentially getting my teeth smashed in from people who either think I'm glorifying Prework Karma too much or not being harsh enough on Avatar Karma.

41 Comments

RiotRiot ScathlockeApr 4, 201839 votes

This is by far the most clearly expressed critique of the champion that I've seen yet. Thank you for putting so much thought into it. :-)

I'm going to go away and have a think about all this, and speak to the writer. We had some other plans for Karma that didn't end up happening in the lore update... but the new bio was not intended to be the definitive, set-in-stone truth of the character forever...

RiotRiot ScathlockeApr 4, 201834 votes

INB4 "Ugh, so you're going to retcon her again!!" :-P

No, we just know that sometimes what we're aiming for doesn't come across clearly to players. I'm always very happy to review a champion, once their lore has been published, and see if there are ways to genuinely improve on it.

Rico NastyApr 4, 201815 votes

Thank you for this reply. I truly appreciate it as an avid Karma fan and main. Could you maybe combine the aspect of the reincarnation with the aspect of balance from the old lore? I really don't like this "voices in her head" thing, it kind of defeats the purpose of her. Karma is supposed to be a strong-willed, spiritual, independent woman who led her people by creating a third path to success. She is supposed to be inventive and revolutionary, not just doing what other people tell her to do. Have you pondered over any ideas on how to fix this? Thanks again! I appreciate the work you're doing. :)

HozenbApr 4, 201810 votes

Yes, and I think being a strong-willed, spiritual, independent and wise woman is the most unique part of Karma, which makes her stand out from other characters.

Reincarnation should have been an insightful process for her, which could have provided the opportunity to her to understand different experience in different life and should have led her to an even wiser woman.

I really dislike the idea that she took control of another humans' bodies (e.g. Darha), interrupted others' life and that she was actually influenced heavily by that third person.

The narrative team brought out a new and interesting theme about Karma and I appreciated the effort. All I hope is that Karma could be more like Karma, the independent woman Karma, and less like Darha.

As many people suggested, we love the Karma as a whole entity, the only one soul.

It's still not too late to adjust her lore which has just been released for a few days.

VanjieApr 4, 20185 votes

Why would it be any different? She was used as a pawn, yet again, for someone or something else in the game. What exactly do you feel like made Karma better with this lore and the relaunch 5 years ago? Nothing. We have Developers that have taken every bit of beloved themes, weapons, art, lore, narrative, and much more from Karma and put it on Ivern, Irelia and new champions in the game. Meanwhile we have a champion that doesn't even have a properly fleshed out theme, running and shield casting animation, and narrative in game that does anything for her. What can you possibly do to fix this mistake? I have the answer and the same one all the other Developers say about Karma: Come up with an excuse to do a hypothetical rework on her that addresses identity, theme, lore, art, and kit issues. You are working on narrative for Lux, MF, and Varus though. You are working on Ahri's kit and visuals for 3 patches now. You are talking about prioritizing a massive rework and art changes to Ezreal before Karma.

What can you possibly do to Karma that no other Developer could be bothered to talk about or do in the past 5 years? Come up with lies that reassures the community that you will continue to not listen to them and do good work on Karma. Let's just create a character that sits in one spot and meditates . . . . just like she does in game when the only time she is relevant is when she spams Mantra E.

Just start telling the community you don't care and you don't listen. Your history with Karma proves it.

LíthillyaApr 4, 20184 votes

{quoted}

INB4 "Ugh, so you're going to retcon her again!!" :-P

No, we just know that sometimes what we're aiming for doesn't come across clearly to players. I'm always very happy to review a champion, once their lore has been published, and see if there are ways to genuinely improve on it.

Is that the case for all champions, or only the ones with newly released/changed lore? If it is, could you pretty please have a second look at Vayne? Admittedly her story remained overall the same, loss of parents leading her to the life of a coldblooded vigilante, however what drove her to it was changed from one of the most powerful bits of lore, to a mediocre 'meh'. In her old lore, she watched from a cupboard as her parents were tortured and killed by a witch, a young girl, far too scared to do anything other but try and hide, even as the witch tried to goad her out by threatened to do to her mother, what she'd already done to her father. Telling her that it was -her- fault her mother was suffering, because -she- chose to hide.

""Come out, little girl. Come out, or I will do to mummy what I have already done to daddy." The crone suspended her mother above the floor of the moonlit kitchen, the poor woman's limbs painfully and helplessly outstretched. Blood slowly dripped from her, dribbling from a hundred impossibly small cuts.

The young Shauna Vayne was too terrified to move. There she was, trapped, frozen, and forced to watch through a crack in the cupboard door as the twisted witch brutally tortured the woman she loved more than any other.

"I'll give you one last chance to come out, lassie." To punctuate, the crone made some mystical gesture that caused her mother to cry out in agony. "

Compare that bit alone to what was given in her new lore; "Shortly after Vayne’s sixteenth birthday, she returned home from a midsummer banquet and saw something she would never forget.

An unspeakably beautiful, horned woman stood before the bloodied corpses of her parents.

Vayne screamed in agony and terror. Before disappearing, the demon looked down at the young girl and flashed her a terrible, lustful smile.

Vayne tried to brush the bloody hair out of her mother’s eyes, but that haunting smile lingered in her mind, growing and consuming her. Even as she shakily smoothed her father’s eyelids closed – his mouth still agape, frozen in his last horrific moments of confusion – the demon’s smile seeped through her thoughts. "

I mean... it's undeniably a horrible thing to happen, sure, but it's also so very, very generic. -Every- setting has the 'parents murdered before the hero's eyes' background, but her old lore put at least a somewhat different spin to it, plus gave it a much harder impact. Just compare the two, and imagine which would've been worse, and what might've worked as a better driving force for the character.

Of course, the old lore went even further than that. Whereas the new lore has a brief "It was a smile that would fill Shauna’s veins with hatred for the rest of her days.", line that sort of just states that 'it made her super hateful, like forever', rather than going into details of the why. To me, this is a case of someone feeling the need to tell the audience what the character is feeling simply by labeling an emotion, rather than describing the build of the emotions themselves.

Again, the old lore took a, in my opinion, better route and delivered what was to me the most powerful bit of League lore: "Even if she'd wanted to, Shauna couldn't even cry out. The vise-like grip of fear prevented that.

The crone cackled, the horrible sound echoing off the walls. "You are an awful child, girl, to make your mummy die this way."

**With each more horrifying shriek of pain and suffering that issued from her mother, something warm and bright in Vayne died. However, in its grave were planted the first seeds of a searing, merciless, and never-ending hatred... **"

A terrified little girl, hiding, as the screams of her mother slowly tears piece after piece out of her soul, until there's nothing left but the cold, remorseless drive that leads to her path as the Night Hunter. Even if the rest had been boiled down, those last two line just drives it all home and seals the story perfectly. This is Vayne. That is how she was made. That's her reason for being. There's just nothing else left, and this is why. Hell, she might even partly blame herself which'd just add to the drive, another thing that the new lore is missing. I honestly don't get why this part was changed, it worked -perfectly-. The new lore is, again, just too generic, it might've well have had her parents gunned down in an alley while she watched.

Another thing worth noting, while she keeps a cold behavior for most of the time in the new lore, she still comes across as taking almost a kind of pleasure out of killing. The character never struck me as being a sadist before, she simply did what she felt had to be done, as quickly and efficiently as possible. She didn't take the time to stand around gloating or taking in the sights, because she likely didn't even have the capacity to feel joy anymore. She was a broken mess of a young woman, likely damaged beyond repair, but she wasn't a sadist.

So uhm... yeah. I've no idea if it's the sorta thing you guys care about anymore, but I figured I'd put it out there now that the topic come upon changing or at least elaborating further on lore that might not have entirely hit its mark. (Seriously though, if you add that last bolded quote back into her lore, you'll be my new hero.)

HellioningApr 4, 20185 votes

No, we just know that sometimes what we're aiming for doesn't come across clearly to players. I'm always very happy to review a champion, once their lore has been published, and see if there are ways to genuinely improve on it.

So has every single champion but Jayce had great lore when they were released? Or are we gonna wait a couple of years for another lore rework to get those fixes?

ZapMyHeartApr 4, 20185 votes

{quoted}

INB4 "Ugh, so you're going to retcon her again!!" :-P

No, we just know that sometimes what we're aiming for doesn't come across clearly to players. I'm always very happy to review a champion, once their lore has been published, and see if there are ways to genuinely improve on it.

Well, for starters, the transition between Darha to usage of "Karma" in the lore is just...off. There's no real bridge on when Darha gave up control to become the "collective" Karma that she is now.

And who is "Karma" now? If Darha is taken in the backseat, who is this new one in full control?

It's confusing because the original Karma is her own self. This new one...I'm not sure who or what is going on inside that mind.

My question is: Does Karma have to rely on sharing Darha's body with multiple voices?

Why cannot Karma just be Karma? Instead of being a collective being of many past lives possessing a body, with the latest being Darha?

Is it possible that Karma just be able to access multiple live's memories and use that to become wise? Instead of them having to continue bombarding her with their own opinions?

Also, what are the purposes of those voices? I mean, they provide wisdom, yes, however, it is also their opinion, and it creates a conflict that would tear her from within when these voices argue with one another, no?

Which leads to the idea of why would she continue to seek the voices instead of letting them go? Those voices could drive her mad.

The fact that every time she does peaceful negotiation, she regains her voices back, is there a reason why she is in League, where people are fighting and she eventually has to fight, as well? That in itself would lead to her losing the voices again, right?

There are simply too many contraindications and no real purpose/motivation for her to be in League. She could simply hermit life in some random place in Ionia to live with her voices instead.

The idea that she has to be peaceful in order to regain her voices creates a really bad precedence on her reason to join League.

There is too much emphasis on the "voices" and "enlightenment", and "conflict of morality" aspect and not enough of who Karma is, what her beliefs are, and what is her motivation to Ionia.

The first lore laid it out beautifully. She was an unusual child with ungodly patience, having inert powers within, and demonstrated both pacifist means (e.g. negotiation of her village) and the ability to defend her country (e.g. fighting alongside her comrades), while influencing the community as a whole (e.g. political career).

The second lore is alright. She had innate powers that manifested under stress and she balance between peace and war by only killing when necessary (1 general vs hundreds) to end conflict. Her path is to find a middle ground between both extremes of pacifism and militarism.

This latest one...she has multiple voices in her head and they pull her in multiple directions. Unfortunately, one small mishap lead to her losing control and destroying many. Why is a mentally unstable being allowed to join League?

With the first two lores, Karma is steadfast in her convictions to find a balance between peace and war when necessary. This one, she is troubled and not sure what or how to even go about it. Or to the point where she is completely pacifist to regain favor from her voices again.

I don't think many people can relate to a champion who is still unsure about what to do. Or a redemption story of how she is martyring herself because of one mistake. The previous two Karma knew exactly why she is doing something. This one...not so much and is trying out extreme pacifism.

The issue is that Irelia's lore is militaristic (same as her previous one), where this one is opposite (extreme pacifism). Meanwhile, the other 2 lores, Karma was balanced, where she rejected both extremes.

I'm unsure why you felt the need to make Karma an antagonist to Irelia through such extreme measures of pacifism when her previous lore was antagonistic in nature through balance of peace/fighting already.

Also, what about the dragon symbolism? There's no mention of it, yet her in-game model, she is sporting the Ionian symbol. That represents Yin and Yang; the dualistic nature of light and darkness in harmony. Something that represented Karma's ideals of balance or the "in-between".

I may be reading into this too much, but Ionians are painted in the dichotomy of peace and war, where Karma is in the middle of it. Irelia may be considered "Yin", or dark side (war). Karma was originally both Yin and Yang, a balance of peace and war. But now, Karma is painted as "Yang" or light side (peace).

We already have that through Demacia vs Noxus. Why continue to repeat this theme? Especially when Karma's balanced nature was a fresh perspective that could've been explored further.

Is there any reason for that? Changing her previous intentions to something else is rather depressing. The extreme pacifism aspect could be given to a new champion instead of butchering an old one whose ideals were already set and accepted by the community already.

moogle890Apr 5, 20186 votes

I please urge you to reconsider Karma a little, she is a favorite to a lot of people and she's not exactly been treated well these past few years.

QuephaApr 5, 20182 votes

We know you're not going to retcon her again. Riot isn't interested in fixing mistakes like Karma, Swain, Mundo, Orianna, Fiora, Trundle...

LarrietApr 5, 20183 votes

Can't speak for the others, but I absolutely love Orianna 's updated lore. A welcome change in my book; just wish her in-game VO matched it a bit better now.

QuephaApr 5, 20182 votes

It's a change to the core of her character, it meshes poorly with her visuals, subsequent stories about her do not incorporate the change and actually make more sense under the old lore, and it doesn't actually add any value.

It is the perfect example of change for the sake of change which is a horrific sin in writing for an established canon.

Hexs FortuneApr 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

INB4 "Ugh, so you're going to retcon her again!!" :-P

No, we just know that sometimes what we're aiming for doesn't come across clearly to players. I'm always very happy to review a champion, once their lore has been published, and see if there are ways to genuinely improve on it.

New Karma reminds me of Ermac. Please tell me you've played Mortal Kombat xD

RiotRiot ScathlockeApr 6, 20182 votes

I played Mortal Kombat and Mortal Kombat II when they first came out.

I am older than most of the people I work with. :-(

The Blue RajahApr 6, 20182 votes

Don’t say things like that or you’re going to make ME feel old D:

BottleCapsterApr 5, 20186 votes

Thank you so much for reading, I really appreciate it. I know the boards can be a pretty hostile environment for these kinds of conversations, especially when it's about characters they love. I think too often on the boards we forget that there are people behind these stories, fans just like us, doing their best. Hopefully over time we can get better at this together, so that we all benefit from these stories we're all so invested in. I look forward to reading anything else that comes by for Karma, and if I have any concerns, I'll do my very best to present them in a way that doesn't go out of it's way to be malicious or rude. We all want good stories after all, and sometimes that takes multiple perspectives. So once more, from the bottom of my heart, thank you. All of you.

UltîmaApr 5, 20181 votes

Not to be overly pessimistic but... when do you think there is going to be development for Karma? Pretty much every story Riot's put out since the lore rework has come with a promise of "more to come" without it ever happening. It seems like the narrative team is more concerned with creating plot-threads rather than pursuing them. Fans of Karma really don't want to have to wait another year before getting a few paragraphs of text.

LarrietApr 5, 20183 votes

The thing is, there's still loads of champions who haven't gotten anything updated yet; that's why they've released so many threads without tying them up. There are still a lot of seeds that need to be planted, and I'd say it's less fair for fans of Soraka/Kayle/Fiddlesticks/etc. to wait longer for ANYTHING, than it is for fans of Lux/Diana/Swain to wait for another update.

(I know it's a comma splice but it's more clear that way)

RiotRiot ScathlockeApr 6, 20186 votes

Larriet has hit upon it, there. When we say "More to come..." we don't necessarily mean "...in the next few weeks!" ;-)

But you will see more and more connective tissue between stories. We are building a world through the eyes, actions and interactions of the champions - Swain's new lore hinted at the Placidium battle, then Irelia's filled it out some more. There's still plenty to be told there, but the story focus is moving with each new champion...

Where to, next? I'm not going to spoil the surprises - sorry! :-D

Blood MagicksApr 6, 20182 votes

Hi Scathlocke,

speaking of seeds to be planted, should I summon the Crimson Church for the Darkin update, or should we lie dormant for the time being?

Thanks, an Arch-Priest of the Blood Cult

ZapMyHeartApr 7, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Larriet has hit upon it, there. When we say "More to come..." we don't necessarily mean "...in the next few weeks!" ;-)

But you will see more and more connective tissue between stories. We are building a world through the eyes, actions and interactions of the champions - Swain's new lore hinted at the Placidium battle, then Irelia's filled it out some more. There's still plenty to be told there, but the story focus is moving with each new champion...

Where to, next? I'm not going to spoil the surprises - sorry! :-D

Before you put more connective tissue between stories, please fix the actual stories themselves first! Especially when Karma's lore is no where near satisfactory to the Karma community.

HozenbApr 7, 20182 votes

I can't agree with you more.

It would just be terrible if you are going to expand Karma's story based on this bio. This is not Karma. People are not mourning because Riot didn't post the coming stories. Instead, it's because the Story Team is retconning the very well established character into a completely different person (and actually she is not even a person anymore).

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. I still think the Story Team did a great job on Irelia, Riven, Yasuo and etc. because they are keeping most part of the old bios. They have more or less the same personality and experience in the new lore. That is most important to the fans who have loved these characters for years. I absolutely love how you added more depth to Riven and Irelia. I can know from the story what they think during the war and what difficulties they are going to face after the war. You did an excellent job to expand Riven and Irelia's old lore.

It would be so much better if Karma update is in this direction. I really want to know what kind of challenges my dear Karma would face when she tried to advocate the middle way. Would that also lead to an inevitable civil war? How would she solve the challenges with her sage?

moogle890Apr 4, 201825 votes

I think the multiple spirit Karma thing could work if they do it in a different way. Instead of them being the literal embodiment of peaceful pacifism, let her past lives be just that, past lives. Let them be farmers, warriors, men, women, high born, low born, etc. Have them all be different aspects of life and let Karma simply be the latest iteration of this. (I also just want her name to be Karma from the get go, instead of forcing another name on this character)

I can see her communicating with her past lives to help solve a situation in the present day, even perhaps allowing one to speak through her to give input on something that happened many years ago. She can become a leader this way rather than just being the Avatar. Let her inner turmoil be from the many lives she's had up to this point warring inside her head, and then Karma, as a person, makes the decisions. After all, one of her lines at the moment is:

Karma : "I have seen two paths, and made another between."

This taking a third road option is something i've always loved about Karma. She knows that people like Irelia and her group want Ionia to move towards a more militaristic or at least less passive form of life. And on the other there's the traditionalists who want to remain passive. Karma attempting to find a middle ground between these two vastly different groups is something i always liked about her. And if you count her past lives who would either agree or disagree with both sides, you can have conflict that way. But at the end of the day, Karma should be the one in control of the body and make the decision.

Karma's always been a favorite character of mine. I liked her pre-rework cause no one played her and i felt special for being able to play her effectively during that time. I like her post rework, visuals and all, despite many protests. This iteration of her however, I must agree doesn't really make for a Champion. She can't be one of the greatest people in Runeterra like the other Champions are if she's simply a pacifist who refuses to act because the voices in her head say "No".

BottleCapsterApr 4, 20189 votes

Thanks for the reply! I whole-heartedly agree with you here, one of my biggest issues with the Karma spirit is how it's taking agency away from the character. Karma's fight for a third path has always been a big draw for me as I'm definitely more of a mediator in most situations, and I've always been more interested in finding a solution that works on multiple angles than one that is too rigid and only benefits one side or the other. If the Karma spirit becomes less of an over-powering force on Karma's character and more of a guiding light, I could see this Karma going in some interesting directions, but as is, Avatar Karma feels like a mouthpiece for pacifist ideals moreso than an actual person.

As to my history with the character I'm in the same boat as you lol. Picked up pre-work karma because people said she was bad and I was intrigued, got a little miffed when they changed her but decided to pick her up again and she's been one of my most played champions ever since.

HozenbApr 4, 20188 votes

This would be a much more acceptable way of rewriting Karma's story. Karma has strong will and she should be given the autonomy to think, to make decisions and to pull the past experience together to solve problems.

ShadowGlaive213Apr 5, 20186 votes

I agree with your assessment.

I find I do not like the new direction of her lore. I feel it's a part of a larger pattern in the lore updates in which champions who we knew as people are being turned into spirits or being pushed to second in favor of a spirit or creature, which we've seen in the form of Janna, the Aspects, Varus, and now Karma. The problem with this is that it moves the character we loved out of the spotlight, which makes them feel less like a real champion, and it's in favor of this newcomer that is harder to relate to because it's a spirit.

I think her pacifism is important. But I also think there is a divergence between western and eastern ideas of pacifism (correct me if I'm wrong) where western tends to be more like "thou shalt not hurt a thing" whereas eastern tends to be more "I prefer not to fight, but will if I must," the latter being earlier Karma and the former being what we have now. I also think it was important that Karma had the wisdom to not look at things in a binary of very violent or not violent at all, and sought that balance or middle road. She also felt like she belonged with the people in that she stood with them and not above them despite being a leader.

Is it taboo to mention Varus? =X cuz this feels too much like Varus just spun a little differently. My understanding is that old Karma is now Darha just as old Varus is now Valmar. New Karma and new Varus are both inhabiting the old champs as vessels and Darha and Valmar are influencing these creatures' actions against the creatures' wishes.

If you think of this as a new champion Darha though, she goes from wanting an extraordinary life, starts hearing weird voices in her head that drive her crazy until she happens upon people who teach her how to interact with said voices. She comes to terms with the voices though she doesn't agree with everything they say and one day her actions cause them to give her the cold shoulder and suddenly she feels alone. She then proceeds to win the voices back one conflict at a time. This sounds okay. But it is not what we knew as Karma, and to try and splice her into this story doesn't feel right. If the next lore update has more than one person in a body I give up.

XIII VanitasApr 5, 20184 votes

I believe the issues with Karma 's new lore are nothing but the product of the narrative direction that Riot wanted to push: Ionia was too ideologically cohesive, so they decided to exploit the Noxian invasion in order to introduce internal conflict, which would have allowed them to portrait different characters and mindsets.

After it was decided that Irelia was going to be the military leader of the rebellion, they needed to create her polar opposite, i.e. a staunch pacifist. Karma's identity and story were then re-written to fit that role, which in my opinion is a huge disservice to her original character and her fans.

HozenbApr 5, 20181 votes

People who think Karma's update is okay should imagine what if Irelia was the one who became the pacifist in the updated lore, while Karma could be the one to remain her position as a rebel to traditionists. That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? No one wants a character to be the plot device of another character.

Both Karma and Irelia are the characters I love the most in League of Legends. I think the team did an excellent work on the storytelling of Irelia. But it's heart-breaking to see Karma being the one completely changed.

VanjieApr 4, 20183 votes

I liked the second change of her lore. I don't like the new one at all. This is just another example of no one at Riot really willing to listen to the Karma community. For years they have been doing this and this is the proof people need. They do not care about her at all. As a season 2 vet and level 7 mastery on Karma, it pains me to say that I cannot stand the Development team that never listens and is never willing to do actual work on her. Popular champions like Lux, Ahri, Jhin, Ryze and whoever else get work done on them all the time. Karma has not received anything other than a splash art update for skins that look horrible in the game. Karma's theme, art, kit, lore, and narrative all suck. What she had was taken away by stubborn Developers over the years and we are left with a Development team that keeps coming up with excuses to never do actual work on her, but work on Ahri for 3 patches now. We have a Development team that prioritizes narrative for Lux over champions like Karma or any other one that needs actual narrative improvements.

Karma is not due for a VGU anytime soon. Karma is not going to get a rework anytime soon. Karma is not going to get drastic art changes to address thematic issues anytime soon. Karma is, now, not going to get lore changes to make it better anytime soon. Karma is going to get the same treatment she has been getting every year: comments about Ahri's kit and problems, comments about Lux's problems, comments about Jinx and how she is struggling, comments about Ryze and how he needs massive kit changes again. It's the same type of work they do every year at the expense of champions like Karma, Lissandra, Morde and others. These Developers do not ge it and they have yet to break the cycle and show us they care.

The number one reason I think they fail at everything they do on her, is because they don't listen to the community or make Karma stand out. Her kit is unoriginal, her art and thematic is rushed and sloppy, her narrative in game is non-existent, and now her lore makes Karma nothing more than a side character to Irelia's lore.

I will say the only thing I like in the new lore is how they humanized Karma and gave her a personality. I wish we saw more of the human side of her and not just someone that sits in one spot and meditates all day. I mean I really hate the lore and it doesn't do anything to give Karma a purpose, but I do like that they made her have an actual personality even if it was written in a horrible way. I just want to see a theme that is actually present in her lore, kit, art, and narrative. Nothing they have done impresses me and it is the same sloppy work they did 5 years ago and still haven't addressed to this day.

Pisces StarChildApr 4, 20183 votes

I love your analysis of the character and you pretty much hit the spot on all aspects of the character, from past to present, that made Karma stand out for me as a fan. I've always loved and admired her unwavering spirit from her original lore. An ordinary woman and a commoner who gave her all with what little she had to defend her home from the Noxus invasion, she wasn't blessed with any magical talent nor any physical talent either. With just her indomitable will that would rival a psychic/telepathic user, she stood tall and relentless against even if the most dangerous of foes stood in front of her. This, as you said, led to people looking to her for leadership and the enemies respecting her bravery.

From her second lore, I agree with you when you mentioned that she understood that a path of strictly traditional beliefs will never work because sometimes you simply have to be on the aggressive when it comes to defending your ideals and values. She decided that she should create a third path, one that combines both advantages of the extremes. That to me speaks volume about Karma being capable of becoming a Tactical and a Strategic leader for her nation. Of course that also echo-ed in her previous lore, of how she, with her way of words, moved and rallied her people to fight against the invasion. She is now a diplomat and a fighter, and a wise leader as well.

For the new lore, I think what stands out to me is that Karma is no longer the individual with exceptional traits I've come to admire and like. Instead, she is now a collective of past incarnations of an old soul/spirit. I think I would've enjoyed it more if she was still the Karma we grew to love over the years (the woman, one soul), but that she is more in tune with the magic that exists in Ionia. Instead of it being a collective of souls that'll possess her, I'd rather it be a single entity that is sacred to Ionia that has entrusted Karma as its vessel/go-to person to communicate with and lend its powers to, a feat that only Karma can do thus making her even more outstanding to Ionia and to the entire world of Runeterra. I also would like to see her still fighting to carving a third path, one that will be recognized as her way of teaching, her path of enlightenment.

Don LupusApr 5, 20183 votes

How about admitting you did a mistake instead of all this yadda-yadda "we're looking into it"? It's not a big deal, but recently you did a lot of whacky lore "updates" a la Zyra, Orianna and Karma. They are worse than before and especially in Karma#s case it seems like you just did it for the sake of changing things. There is no reason to change her lore that drastically, the old one had much more potential. A lot of people dislike the new Avatar rip-off and that's a fact and not just some sort of circlejerk. I get that the boards are prone to whining and being super picky about everything. But in this case, I think you just did not improve things and should admit that and act in a corresponding way.

HozenbApr 5, 20183 votes

Yup. I really hope the Development team to take the responsibility to listen to the community and take practical action. Instead of telling us they had read all the comments and let it go. I am afraid that after a period of time, no one remembers or cares about these champions who have been drastically changed by Riot.

It feels like to the Development team, the champions were just a name, like "Karma", "Zyra", "Varus", and they could put anything under this name and told us they are "Karma", "Zyra" and "Varus". Unfortunately, they aren't anymore. No matter how cool the new idea is.

XenethApr 5, 20182 votes

I'm reminded of the Varus lore update somewhat in that there's an implied "big change" to the VO/sound design implied by the new lore that either won't happen or isn't going to happen any time soon...

As someone who didn't enjoy Karma mechanically in her Prework incarnation but found her character interesting, I actually fell in love with and started maining her in response to the Rework, so I'm all for pushing forward with change and trying to make Karma the most interesting and unique-to-League champion possible; I'm not a fan of sacred cows or resisting change.

I actually find this new gestalt incarnation intriguing, but I'm sad that she won't feel anything like it without in-game quotes that reference it, without little whispers of the Karma hive mind coming through when using Mantra, etc.

The Varus lore update would also have been a lot more interesting and cohesive if his in-game audio was made to reflect his new fusion identity, (despite the comic's efforts to imply some sort of unification of the three voices at the very end.)

bobosmith01Apr 5, 20182 votes

Karma is one of the few new lores where I just. Don't understand why it was necessary. It feels like she regressed as a character-where was her lesson in action and inaction?

JarciesApr 5, 20181 votes

I think the most important aspect of Karma's character is balance. That is the most important thing to me, at least. I want her to bring the compromise to Ionia's struggle between peace and violence. That's all. She can be Darha, she can be the Avatar, but above all, I want her to be confident in the idea and practice of balance. I really hope they can bring that back to the character I have identified with since I started playing this game.

Edit: And if we can't even have that, I think her second most important quality is her confidence. Whatever way she chooses... I want her to be 100% in advocating for it!

LarrietApr 5, 20181 votes

I like your critique, but I'd like to point out that the "punishment" isn't solely internal: it implies that Darha's actions have sown the seeds of conflict (bloodlust seems perhaps a bit too savage a word, but more literally fits) in the people of Ionia. In other words, she tainted her nation, not just her self.

EvenstarApr 6, 20181 votes

Thanks for putting this out. To be honest, I never knew Avatar Karma's lore would have garnered so much attention, for the right reasons. I'm happy to see that the entire Karma player base is actually NOT okay with the direction Karma is going. I'm not one for intricacy, and the recent lore updates have since made me stop reading their entries because everything is just too complicated and unnecessary to read. This post summarizes the direction the team went, and how they wanted to present Karma, and to be honest, even after reading the summary, I still don't feel positive nor happy about the way Karma went.

So instead of being wishy washy about complicated lore and all, I'll just get straight to the point. Amongst all Karma lore that we had, easily the best one that I've enjoyed so far is Pre-Rework Karma's lore. It was clear, concise, enjoyable to read and easy to grasp. The lore itself could have been expanded further and modernized according to Riot's needs. The best identity Karma has had was to be young lady with a force of will, a pacifist who isn't afraid to fight the front lines with her comrades like you said. Design wise, everything ranging from kit to her voice lines carefully conveyed the fantasy of a champion whose power manifested in her resilience.

For her devotion and charisma, Karma was made the figurehead of the Ionian resistance. She never compromised, and she shared every hardship with her people, even when it came to combat. By tapping into her inner resilience, she discovered that she could bring great force to bear against her foes on the battlefield.

Bolded words are the most inspiring part of the lore for me. This is the exact reason I clung entirely on to the Old Karma, and the very reason the new Karma had never left any form of fondness in me. The Old Karma had something going in her story, character and personality. I fell in love with Karma's character, and when she got reworked, I had none to love until Taliyah came along, because Taliyah embodied that strong will that Karma had, albeit with a bit plunky optimism that I didn't like. And Riot massively screwed up the lore since Rework Karma. Rework Karma was bland and just boring and they never expanded her story since then. I waited time after time, and yet didn't feel like Riot was putting in the effort, lore and gameplay wise. And yes, I'm still looking at you @RiotHunaan whatever your name is. Had the transition from old to new lore been smoother, I wouldn't be so upset with Hunaan. That girl never left an impression, she left as quickly as she came.

The reason why I stopped reading Riot lores these days? The narrative team always needs to spice things up by giving a champion some dark, unseen side of them. They tried too hard to make everything far too realistic and should have just left some character fantasies untouched. For example, I particularly just enjoyed reading Ahri's lore as a nine tailed fox who wanted to be human and when she did, suffered guilt and remorse. I love that theme and wished Riot would have continued that path. Instead, what they had done was revamp the system by coming up with huge changes like Vastayans and shit and then giving Ahri a story about how she killed a man she was in love with.

That to me was unnecessary depths, some might disagree with my perspective but that's what stopped me from reading the rest of League's lore, and it doesn't surprise me why the people who critic the lore are only a small group of people. The very same reason Karma's change in lore doesn't captivate much attention, not just because Karma had a small base to start with anyway, but also because Karma never quite left an impression with her reworked lore after that.

Scathlocke saying inb4 is a good indication even Riot is tired of the shit we've been throwing at them, but again, when it comes to Riot, they have done zero stuffs for me to have faith in them. It feels like Scathlocke is just saying it in case someone comes along and says something that will put him in his place.

ZeanixApr 8, 20181 votes

I really love this analysis of Karma! My favourite is 2013 Karma, I really loved her overall middle path theme, and I actually try to have a mind set like hers. Though I disapprove with new Karma, I am still quite open of how it might go. I do like Moogle's idea, having the past lives just that, basically how the avatar worked. I wish Darha could have more of a spotlight as well. I feel like Darha could work like Korra from avatar as well. She could be like a new generation of Karma.

ZapMyHeartApr 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I really love this analysis of Karma! My favourite is 2013 Karma, I really loved her overall middle path theme, and I actually try to have a mind set like hers. Though I disapprove with new Karma, I am still quite open of how it might go. I do like Moogle's idea, having the past lives just that, basically how the avatar worked. I wish Darha could have more of a spotlight as well. I feel like Darha could work like Korra from avatar as well. She could be like a new generation of Karma.

Not sure what is up with Rito's current obsession with MPD.