why does wukong have the burst of an assassin?

MunchCrunchLunch·Apr 12, 2016·25 votes·5,156 views

I mean. I go and read his abilities. there is nothing crazy about them. his clone does almost no damage. ap scaling. and the rest are not crazy. his passive is tankiness. why does he have this much burst damage? I mean hes up there with kha zix and rengar when it comes to burst. I don't understand it. I mean where is this damage coming from? his ult has a ridiculous scaling I can tell you that they can make it scale with bonus ad instead of total ad. but other than that I don't understand at all. why does a champion with fighter tank status have that much burst is beyond me. and stats show that he does not fall off late game.

50 Comments

SirSmokeysAlotApr 12, 201617 votes

Wukong only has that style of insane burst under two conditions.

He has a severe level advantage.
He built glass canon.

If you sacrifice damage for tank stats as wu it really does hurt your ability to insta-delete someone.

MunchCrunchLunchApr 12, 20163 votes

not really he will half you in lane pre level 6 with 1 combo.

CeexSettApr 12, 20164 votes

He is meant to do that, and then transition to a diver bruiser by mid to late game. He does the same job as Irelia, Renekton, Jax, but with more teamfight power over 1v1 potential or lane power.

AlwaysByMySideApr 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Wukong only has that style of insane burst under two conditions.

He has a severe level advantage.

He built glass canon.

If you sacrifice damage for tank stats as wu it really does hurt your ability to insta-delete someone.

A typical Wukong build has 3,000ish HP (more than that considering the two shields he gets from sterak's and maw) and like four hundred AD.

"Glass cannon" lol.

Wukong late game is basically a team fight-oriented Master Yi. Great damage and decent durability. He doesn't have the tankiness of a tank or juggernaut, but he has better sticking power and burst, and more CC than any juggernaut.

Samflash3Apr 12, 201612 votes

Well he was trained by Master Yi

JefftiffyApr 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAmfwnzc,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-04-12T19:50:11.629+0000)

A typical Wukong build has 3,000ish HP (more than that considering the two shields he gets from sterak's and maw) and like four hundred AD.

"Glass cannon" lol.

Wukong late game is basically a team fight-oriented Master Yi. Great damage and decent durability. He doesn't have the tankiness of a tank or juggernaut, but he has better sticking power and burst, and more CC than any juggernaut.

No Wukong should ever build a Sterak's. His kit is way too reliant on bonus AD except his Q. Wukong's average build is item 3074 item 3742 item 3102 item 3068 + boots and situational item.

Wukong's only utility outside of his damage is his ult's CC. Otherwise he does nothing but act like a knock up bot.

AlwaysByMySideApr 12, 20167 votes

{quoted}

No Wukong should ever build a Sterak's. His kit is way too reliant on bonus AD except his Q. Wukong's average build is + boots and situational item.

That's a terrible build. One AD item? Garbage. You're not a tank, you need to make use of your AD scaling.

Only his E scales off of bonus AD. His Q? Total AD. His W? AP, so doesn't matter. His ult? His ult is 440% TOTAL AD scaling. This is the most of any ult in the game save the theoretical damage of an Illaoi ult in a team fight. As far as reliable AD scaling damage goes, I believe only Garen's E on a single target has higher AD scaling.

No, this is a far better Wukong build:

item 3142 item 3071 item 1001 (upgrade varies) item 3742 item 3156 item 3053

Now, Sterak's Gage is the most situational item in this build and can be easily swapped out for something else like a Lord Dom's, Death's Dance, another defensive item, or whatever, but you certainly need more than two sources of AD, and not getting Black Cleaver is ridiculous. Sunfire Cape? Fuck that trash.

Also, that isn't even an "average" Wukong build.

http://champion.gg/champion/MonkeyKing/Top

The most frequent core build is similar to mine, but with a randuin's instead of a sterak's.

SirSmokeysAlotApr 15, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAmfwnzc,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2016-04-12T19:50:11.629+0000)

A typical Wukong build has 3,000ish HP (more than that considering the two shields he gets from sterak's and maw) and like four hundred AD.

"Glass cannon" lol.

Wukong late game is basically a team fight-oriented Master Yi. Great damage and decent durability. He doesn't have the tankiness of a tank or juggernaut, but he has better sticking power and burst, and more CC than any juggernaut.

He does not get that tank until at least 3 to 4 items. Normally games are over long before that. The way Wu is, if you get ahead you will be miles ahead. Playing from behind can be very rough. He's quite feast or famine. Like an assassin. Get too far behind and you're only worth an armor break and one are CC.

Yosuke ApperuApr 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Wukong only has that style of insane burst under two conditions.

He has a severe level advantage.

He built glass canon.

If you sacrifice damage for tank stats as wu it really does hurt your ability to insta-delete someone.

Level 2 power spike with thunder lords will wreck your health bar.

jdizzle367Apr 12, 20169 votes

He really doesn't burst that hard unless you build him for damage. He just has good scalings and can cancel a lot of animations which is able to compress a lot of damage into a shorter amount of time, combine that with armor shred on his q and you got a lot of burst. I really don't think that the tank tag is deserved outside of his passive which is only good in team fights he lacks a fair amount of innate durability.

Ultimate DeadpooApr 12, 20168 votes

Got to agree, Wukongs burst is kind of strange, it just doesn't really make any sence.

SaiannaApr 12, 20164 votes

Instead of asking why Wukong has burst of an assassin, I'd love to know:

Why Diana has damage of feed assassin and defenses of medium-sized tank? (burst 2k hp before your flash animation ends. Oh and flash has no animation.)
Why Ekko has damage of a feed mage, burst of an assassin on steroids and defenses of medium tank along with his bullshit "Press R to survive shit" ability
Why Evelynn, one of the first assassins, has no burst and has to be built purely tank?
Why WotA + Vlad are unhealthy, but Draven + his empowered axes + Lifesteal are fine?
Why Riot allowed Yi/Kog/Irelia/Xin/Shyvana to successfuly spam Gunsoo/Devourer for so long and there are no nerfs yet?
Why there are no meaningful balance (buffs) decisions for champions with low pick/ban/winrate?
Why Caits ultimate is so meh?

Tychusfindlay919Apr 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Instead of asking why Wukong has burst of an assassin, I'd love to know:

Why Diana has damage of feed assassin and defenses of medium-sized tank? (burst 2k hp before your flash animation ends. Oh and flash has no animation.)

Why Ekko has damage of a feed mage, burst of an assassin on steroids and defenses of medium tank along with his bullshit "Press R to survive shit" ability

Why Evelynn, one of the first assassins, has no burst and has to be built purely tank?

Why WotA + Vlad are unhealthy, but Draven + his empowered axes + Lifesteal are fine?

Why Riot allowed Yi/Kog/Irelia/Xin/Shyvana to successfuly spam Gunsoo/Devourer for so long and there are no nerfs yet?

Why there are no meaningful balance (buffs) decisions for champions with low pick/ban/winrate?

Why Caits ultimate is so meh?

Cait's ultimate is supposed to be an execution tool. It has to be weak since caitlyn is one of, if not the most oppressive early game ADC in the game. Her range is topped only by a tristana that's really high leveled. Once you get some armor pen though, her ult isn't too bad.

DarthSpectrumApr 13, 20164 votes

Wukong's burst is nowhere near Kha'zix's or Rengar's, especially late game.

A good portion of his damage comes from the extra effects packed in his abilities. His E gives him an AS steroid, and his Q acts as an AA reset and shreds armor. That combined with Thunderlord's Decree allows Wukong to dish out some damage early. Wukong can easily sneak in a few extra AAs in his combo and a Tiamat proc if he has the item. None of his abilities (except his ultimate) deal a ton of damage alone. However, he can use them in quick succession and weave AAs between them to increase his damage output in a small time frame.

It is the same reason why Fiora and Riven can deal so much damage early. Their AD ratio and base are actually pretty bad, but they can hit a target for like 3 times per second with all their animation canceling. This is also why it feels like that some tanks deal less damage despite having good base on their abilities. Their abilities are a lot slower, and they cannot combo them quickly.

Very Hard EngageApr 12, 20162 votes

hes sort of (sort of) like riven, where he gets auto resets, giving him the opportunity to deal additional damage faster. like if you add up all of his abilities, its relatively modest. but when you add 2 or 3 auto attacks into the mix its an extra ~500 damage

MunchCrunchLunchApr 12, 20161 votes

like honestly i just hate laning against wukong and losing half my health in one combo. I just really. hate him as a champion and I can't get over it. how easy it is to land his combo is just criminal.

Very Hard EngageApr 12, 20162 votes

if you want to mess wukong up, pick darius/garen/olaf/renekton/riven, they all have way better base damages and beat him in fights with relative ease.

unless ofc, you're hitting the clone... but if you build what he builds on any of ^ champions, you win every time.

his biggest weakness is his mana pool so you just have to get through it and then theres not a whole lot he can do.

wukong unfortunately has the advantage against people who are lacking in base stats. and especially against people who dont build any tank items.

1st MovementApr 12, 20162 votes

He falls off late just play Shen to counter him if your going top lane

AlwaysByMySideApr 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Reaver MHX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAmfwnzc,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-12T15:54:29.028+0000)

He falls off late just play Shen to counter him if your going top lane

Wukong is one of the strongest late game fighters in the game. His incredible burst and decent tankiness in team fights combined with a very powerful AOE knockup ensures that. He is also a pretty good duelist, not on the level of someone like Nasus, Tryndamere, or Yi, but good enough.

1st MovementApr 12, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAmfwnzc,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-04-12T19:54:10.431+0000)

Wukong is one of the strongest late game fighters in the game. His incredible burst and decent tankiness in team fights combined with a very powerful AOE knockup ensures that. He is also a pretty good duelist, not on the level of someone like Nasus, Tryndamere, or Yi, but good enough.

From a high elo perspective his dmg falls off late

From a low elo that might be true

AlwaysByMySideApr 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Reaver MHX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAmfwnzc,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-04-12T22:40:20.690+0000)

From a high elo perspective his dmg falls off late

From a low elo that might be true

Based on what?

Certainly not his AD scalings, which are some of the best on an AD caster, which is combined with low cooldowns and more utility than any fighter I can think of.

If I were to think of actual high elo points of view, one that comes to mind is Dyrus. While Dyrus doesn't think much of Wukong overall (thinks his laning phase is too easily abused), he has said that Wukong's late game scaling is very strong.

Considering that Dyrus is much higher elo than you, why should I believe you?

1st MovementApr 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAmfwnzc,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-12T23:08:24.614+0000)

Based on what?

Certainly not his AD scalings, which are some of the best on an AD caster, which is combined with low cooldowns and more utility than any fighter I can think of.

If I were to think of actual high elo points of view, one that comes to mind is Dyrus. While Dyrus doesn't think much of Wukong overall (thinks his laning phase is too easily abused), he has said that Wukong's late game scaling is very strong.

Considering that Dyrus is much higher elo than you, why should I believe you?

let me ask you a question if u cant get off a good ult what can you do about it late game

the trade off is if i build tons of ad can u survive long enough for the duration of your ult ? youll also need your team to follow up whenever you do an engage

AlwaysByMySideApr 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Reaver MHX,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAmfwnzc,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-12T23:28:52.123+0000)

let me ask you a question if u cant get off a good ult what can you do about it late game

the trade off is if i build tons of ad can u survive long enough for the duration of your ult ? youll also need your team to follow up whenever you do an engage

I don't know, if Twitch, one of the strongest late game ADCs wastes his ult, what can he do about it late game? If Fiora can't get off a good ult, what can she do? What about Yasuo? All are strong late game champions, yet rely on their ults. Wukong is fairly ult reliant, but he has plenty of tools (stealth, point and click gap closer, youmuu's) to let him reach the backline and burst them down.

Yeah, since you'll still have 3,000+ health, 150ish resistances, and presumably a team following up on you.

... go on? There isn't a single champion in this game who can reliably 1v5. Vayne is very strong late game, but she is still reliant on her team to peel and engage for her in team fights.

ReeplayApr 13, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAmfwnzc,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-12T23:08:24.614+0000)

Based on what?

Certainly not his AD scalings, which are some of the best on an AD caster, which is combined with low cooldowns and more utility than any fighter I can think of.

If I were to think of actual high elo points of view, one that comes to mind is Dyrus. While Dyrus doesn't think much of Wukong overall (thinks his laning phase is too easily abused), he has said that Wukong's late game scaling is very strong.

Considering that Dyrus is much higher elo than you, why should I believe you?

Wukong Game Played by Dyrus

Wukong game starts at about 3:24:30, afterwards he vows to never play him again because he's so shitty.

ReeplayApr 13, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gAmfwnzc,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-04-12T19:54:10.431+0000)

Wukong is one of the strongest late game fighters in the game. His incredible burst and decent tankiness in team fights combined with a very powerful AOE knockup ensures that. He is also a pretty good duelist, not on the level of someone like Nasus, Tryndamere, or Yi, but good enough.

Agree with you on most stuff, but he's probably one of the shittiest "duelists" in the game after it gets past the 15 minute mark. I tried to think of any "duelists" you would win in a 1v1 late game unless massively ahead and to be honest I can't think of any. Hell even Aatrox will shit on him once he has BotRK. He can burst down squishy targets late just fine, but when I think of duelists, I'm thinking of the splitting Tryndamere, Jax, Trundle, Fiora, etc., and although you can win against some of them early, late he can't do anything to trade with them.

PePsiLemoNNApr 12, 20162 votes

The better question is why he , as a fighter/bruiser , has invisibility :\

KingsgraveApr 12, 20164 votes

{quoted}

The better question is why he , as a fighter/bruiser , has invisibility :\

because its his only real escape?

PePsiLemoNNApr 13, 20161 votes

Then why doesn't Darius Garen Chogath Illaoi Pantheon etc have an escape?

KingsgraveApr 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Then why doesn't etc have an escape?

They are different champions.

Also, his W is barely an escape.

AtanchanApr 16, 20161 votes

Literally over half of the champions you listed are juggernauts, which are designed to have poor mobility as a class weakness, another champion that is entirely unlike Wukong in any way, shape, or form, and a champion that has an ability he can escape with.

JalkanApr 13, 20162 votes

http://i.imgur.com/M2Um4cd.jpg

morris1Apr 13, 20161 votes

I like how he smoothly transitions from 80 TOTAL damage on ult at level 10 to a whopping 440 at 11. Sounds legit.

Sire HippingtonApr 12, 20161 votes

AA-reset, and a powerfull armorshred. AA-resets are just very bursty. If you read through rngars numbers, his burst shouldn't be crazy aswell, but it is, because AA resets ad another 1.0 ratio, potentially more with crit, if used correctly.

Also, the class descriptions from riot aren't always on point. Wu is more a fighter/assasin.

SdarsApr 12, 20161 votes

Ok, so we both agree his ult is ridiculous. So let's ignore the ult: A very usual combo Wukong players do is E+basic+Q+Ravenous Hydra Active. Let's calculate the damage: 240+80% AD+100%AD+100%AD+150+10%AD+100%AD= 390+390% AD Wukong will usually have around 250 AD even building only BC and Ravenous Hydra for offensive items: 390+3.9x250=1365 But we have to consider about 70 armor, even with black cleaver: 1365x100/170=803

That's nearly half of the adc's hp while building rather tanky. And his strength isn't even single target damage. It's AOE dmg. And this is a simple combo!

TheRealBazApr 12, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Ok, so we both agree his ult is ridiculous. So let's ignore the ult: A very usual combo Wukong players do is E+basic+Q+Ravenous Hydra Active. Let's calculate the damage: 240+80% AD+100%AD+100%AD+150+10%AD+100%AD= 390+390% AD Wukong will usually have around 250 AD even building only BC and Ravenous Hydra for offensive items: 390+3.9x250=1365 But we have to consider about 70 armor, even with black cleaver: 1365x100/170=803

That's nearly half of the adc's hp while building rather tanky. And his strength isn't even single target damage. It's AOE dmg. And this is a simple combo!

and half that when you count armour....

invisiblecat1Apr 12, 20161 votes

His ult has suck a stupid scaling that makes it do so much damage at level 11

Sire HippingtonApr 13, 20161 votes

The scaleing isn't that huge, given that it disabls his AAs and lasts 4 sec. With a 1.1 as, AAs have a just as high scaleing over that duration. The basedamage at level 11+ is quite nice though. Still, if you built him more agressive, your AAs outscale the ult to a point where it is more effective to cancle the ult after the knockup in a 1v1, unless you fear you can't stick to them for the AAs, which is another advantage of the ult.

VorazunApr 13, 20161 votes

There's also the matter of it doing a total of 80 base damage at Rank 1. Now, that sounds alright, right? Probably very low, huh, for such a long duration? Well the 440% total AD scaling, that's a thing. But, that's ok too, given it's over such a long period.

Guess what the total base damage at Rank 2 is? 440. That's right. 550% of the Rank 1 base damage. Which goes to 800 at Rank 3.

The power burst is huge. If Riot finds a way to balance out the ability so that Wu doesn't have such a noticeable power spike between ult ranks, he would probably be a lot easier to balance.

invisiblecat1Apr 13, 20161 votes

Most Wukongs do not get 1.1 AS and this damage is to every champion near him, while he can move

Sire HippingtonApr 14, 20162 votes

wukong gets more than 1.1 from his E alone, and it's not that uncommon to get a trinity when you built him more agressive. And read more carefully, "your AAs outscale the ult to a point where it is more effective to cancle the ult after the knockup in a 1v1". 1v1, so the aoe doesn't matter in that scenario.

Sisters10086Apr 13, 20161 votes

early game decent damage, late game item 2043 then no damage

Meep ManApr 13, 20161 votes

30% armor penetration, that's where.

Only Play DariusApr 13, 20161 votes

Because good Wukongs instinctively AA cancel with his Q which essentially gives him 2 attacks at once. Combine that with Triforce and BC armor shred and you have pretty potent damage against squishy targets.

And the reason he does so well late game is because unlike most melee fighters he actually had a solid initiation and is therefore good in 5v5 teamfights.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 16, 20161 votes

wtf Triforce and BC in the same build Oo don't do that. Choose either trini or black cleaver.

ReeplayApr 13, 20161 votes

To answer your question...because he's built as an assassin. You do realize he has like four match ups in the top lane where he's not at least at a minor disadvantage or very quickly outscaled. The only point he's typically stronger is level 1 or level 2, although low elo loves to throw every skill shot at the clone once he has it. He doesn't have the single target damage of most assassins, and he does have a bit more health, but not enough to be an issue. Hell his underpowered W is literally countered by a 75 gold ward. I think his current win rate right now is right at 50% or just under. Sterak's/Maw counter his burst fairly decently and any decent support should be able to peel him as once his E is down he has no engage without flash.

FoxstepApr 13, 20161 votes

He is an old champion. His base damage and stats are really high. They will adjust his stats I think.

FrockSaintsApr 13, 20161 votes

His burst is decent but not super high. He just does it in a very short amount of time, so it looks really bursty.

iltApr 16, 20161 votes

Ekko

WolfOmarSep 11, 20171 votes

Well the build i go it's really strong specially with the new duskblade. item 3147 , item 3074 , item 3142 item 3009 item 3742 item 3071 if u want to make Ashe cry then take buy that.