The future of Itemization: if you haven't figured it out, read this.

Hyrum Graff··106 votes·19,019 views

#In this thread How Riot will fix mage itemization, supports and mages abusing each other's items and kits, Bruisers abusing tank items, and more.

Feel free to read just the sections that are interesting to you.

#My street cred: I tend to be very close to the same page as Riot. I proposed something very similar to the rift scuttler, graves new aa, had some influence over the Fiora rework, and proposed removing stealth wards (bring on the downvotes).

#tl;dr They're tweaking everyone's base stats and scalings so that certain classes synnergize better with certain stats.

|Class|...|Stat| |- |Juggernauts, Bruisers||HP| |Tanks||Armor, MR| |Marksman||Crit, AS| |Mages||Mana, AP| |Supports||Mana Regen|

Repertoir and Ghostcrawler have confirmed some of my observations here, which makes me wish I'd posted earlier for more street cred; oh well, some of this is just me.

#Juggernauts and bruisers build HP

  • All the items that juggernauts and bruisers happen to love have lots of hp attached, with few resists.
    • This makes them appealing to champions that have high base MR and Armor.
  • Notice how Garen's W gives him bonus MR and Armor? It's to make HP a good stat on him.

If juggernauts build hp to get tanky, what do tanks build?

#Tanks will build lots of resists.

  • When the tank class update comes, expect them to have really high base HP.
  • This will let them to make items like thornmail strong on tanks without being overbearing on juggernauts, because juggs want HP, not more armor.
    • Notice how thornmail scales with your bonus armor now? It's another brick in the wall.
    • For example: They could make sunfire cape a tank item by reducing its hp and buffing its armor.

#Marksmen: Crit & attack speed are the marksman stats.

  • Notice: IE and ER both scale super well with more crit. The only other way to get crit is with zeal items which also have AS. A typical marksman bulid: [boots] + [IE/ER] + [LW upgrade] + [zeal upgrade] + [Defensive item] + [situational]
    • As you can see, it's hard to make room for IE and ER (since you usually want some LS). This further emphasizes the whole, "people who want dps from aa-ing do it with crit AND attack speed" thing.
    • Since attack speed + crit on the same items works so much better on marksmen than anyone else, it prevents other classes from abusing this itemization.
  • Finally, notice what they did with Last Whisper: % bonus armor pen. Who's buying bonus armor? TANKS.
    • The lesson: adcs and only adcs can kill tanks, because other classes don't want to waste an item slot on a LW upgrade (since it's useless vs most squishies).

#Emphasis because it's important: Remember all the QQ about "Zed just buys bork and 1shots tanks just as well as squishies?" That was because old LW was a problem, because of the way AD itemization hyper-scales. Now AD assassins have a weakness: they're less good at helping damage tanks than their AP counterparts.

#Mages will build mana while Supports build mana regen

#This is good because mana pools are easier to balance around than regen.

  • With regen, you either have enough that you're effectively manaless all the time, or you don't and you're oom all the time.
  • With a large mana pool, you're effectively manaless until your pool runs dry, and then you're oom forever until you base.
  • First, just look at support itemization. Mana regen is everywhere.
  • Mana regen is based on your base mana regen. Remember when they buffed Lulu's base mana regen while nerfing other things about her?
    • So, they're going to nerf mages' mana regen to hell so they don't can't abuse support items for the mana regen, but give them bigger mana pools and better mana itemization
      • Note: They tried to do this with support items recently: 150% regen on FQC and Talisman -- but they haven't done a pass over mages to lower their regen and prevent them from abusing the support item yet, therefore League of Frost Queen's.
  • They're going to keep void staff as %totalPen. It makes the AP vs AD choice really interesting:

AP means you'll deal more of an equal amount of damage to everyone, whereas AD means you need to choose between squashing squishies and tickling tanks, or being weaker vs squishies but killing tanks as fast as juggernauts -- thus, aoe magic damage champs will be stronger than aoe physical damage champs.

#Questions or Criticisms? Comment on this post and I'll do my best to respond.

264 Comments

RiotMeddler60 votes

Nice post. 'Stat Binding' is the phrase we've been using to describe the process where some stats (and therefore items heavy on them) get made more attractive to some classes than others. Juggernauts are definitely HP, and Marksmen are indeed AS and Crit. Mana's a bind we've been talking about for some mages, still working through how strong/universal an affinity that'll be though (probably weaker than the juggernaut/marksmen ones, at least for some types of mages). Long term I expect we'll also get more distinction within the sub types of each class, with diving fighters for example probably getting pushed more towards resists than HP (targeted rather than universal defense, given their mobility/target selection).

As far as tank killing goes we do expect marksmen to be the most common way of doing that well, other sustained damage dealers should also be good at it too though if you've got them on your team and they're itemizing appropriately (e.g. Vlad with a Void Staff). We believe burst champions, assassins especially because of how strong their target selection is, should have quite a bit of trouble killing a tank with similar value items/levels.

Rebonack4 votes

{quoted}

Nice post. 'Stat Binding' is the phrase we've been using to describe the process where some stats (and therefore items heavy on them) get made more attractive to some classes than others. Juggernauts are definitely HP, and Marksmen are indeed AS and Crit.

If ADCs are supposed to be getting the most mileage out of Crit, does that mean you guys would be willing to consider giving Kog a new Innate that causes him to Phantom Hit on critical strikes?

RiotMeddler16 votes

Marksmen on average are expected to get more value from crit than most other classes, that doesn't mean that every marksman should value crit extremely highly however (or that some non marksmen won't get really high value from crit either). Giving Kog some crit interaction would be a reasonable approach if his itemization was too restrictive and we felt it would be appropriate if he had more access to the crit item pool. Given his on hit nature though if Kog's too item restricted I'd be inclined to start by looking at whether some on hit items that aren't good on him should be or whether we just don't have good enough on hit items in general.

Yuri By Mail4 votes

Well then, where does that leave Gangplank? You have seemed to sculpt him into a very specific niche between Yasuo and a Juggernaut, but also leave him wanting those juicy crits. How do you see his itemization moving forward?

RiotMeddler15 votes

In addition to marksmen there's another sub class of champions we also expect to be significant crit users. Haven't got a great name for that group yet, it's basically champs previously referred to as melee ADCs or light fighters though, so Fiora, Yasuo, Trynd, Yi etc. Would expect GP to be closest to that group in terms of his itemization desires. He's probably always going to be a bit of an oddball though, which is fine provided he feels sufficiently supported. Stat binding's a useful tool, but there should be plenty of room for champions that break the expectations/rules of the item system in healthy, interesting ways.

Hellioning4 votes

Do those really count, though?

Three of the four champs you mention have guaranteed crits in their kit. I mean, yes, technically Yasuo has to buy it, but he gets half of his crit from his kit.

Retillin5 votes

And do you really want crit on Fiora? I haven't played her a lot but it seem raw AD is better.

Hellioning3 votes

Both champion.gg and probuilds think so, yeah. I don't see a single crit item.

ZT Xperimentor9 votes

Again I like the concept, but not how it's handled; each champion reworked feels railroaded into a specific item build, due to pitiful or nonsensical scalings.

Captain Aishi2 votes

I agree so much with this

a good example is how Darius' bleed was changed to physical damage, allowing it to freely stack black cleaver not only does it make the item TOO good on him (is there even a reason to not get that item on darius these days?) it also feels extremely lazy by bypassing the requirement of landing multiple spells/attacks in order to be rewarded with the item's stacking passive

Birefringence2 votes

This also reminds me of how Sona was reworked to have a ridiculously strong reliance on AP which isn't so easy for a support to stack anyway, which is the awful after effect of AP utility scaling from season....season 4?

Quepha5 votes

{quoted}

Yi

Yi scales with crit but doesn't actually care about it at all right now over rageblade and devourer.

Photos of Ghosts5 votes

So why couldn't Wit's End stay at 42? It's weak and overpriced, and the potential abuser of Kog'maw is not interested in buying it.

Tyaldan2 votes

On hit 5 attacks a second kogmaw is VERY interested in buying wits end. I always buy wits end, unless im jungling with kog, because without that 40% boost he doesnt hit 5.0, and if im jungling i get devour instead. Why wits over hurricane? hurricanes damn near useless on kog, because you wont be building enough ad for its side effect to be useful, and crit is fucking worthless on kog. Hes an on hit beast, and stealing 5 x 5 magic resist from someone (stealing, so you gain it yourself) makes his on hit magic damage so painful that people are dead faster than a bursting zed, sometimes. LIterally killed a zed that tried to burst me in the middle of his ult before.

Sire Hippington8 votes

My fear is more that On-hit items(which imo certainly need help) are hold back by kogs huge scaleing. Any buffs to on-hit items potentiall can catapult him to OP in no time.

Another problem is see is sated. It limits the power off other on-hit items aswell as on-hit base champs that have good acces to the jungle. Many on-hit based champs have a waaaaay higher winrate in jungle than in lane, if they are played outside the jungle at all. Sated either needs to scale less powerfull with on-hit, or we need an equivalent for laners, as we have for all other jungleitems, else on-hit champs are either forced to jungle or have kits that work so poorly in the jungle that even devourer can't help them. As someone who enjoys on-hit champs, but not jungleing, this really concerns me, and the current state of shyvana is really, really sad, espceially if we consider that she still has the %bonus vs monsters on W...

AMYS GRAVE9 votes

Its a pity that itemization has become Riot's toy to play with, and not the community's to experiment with. Now through tuning and these kind of designed for champion/class style balancing that riot is doing we can't really experiment and find new builds. When the community finds something that riot didn't design, it gets nerfed out of fear of unintended consequences often without seeing the results of that new and innovative thing. It's really making the game stale.

Stephenizgod4 votes

Everything the community finds is OP and is Abused, hence the Nerfs. I am not going to put a list here of abused and ridiculously overpowered item builds that were not intented because you can easily google it yourself.

JackPine306 votes

Everything the community finds is OP and is Abused, hence the Nerfs.

Well that's just a generalization and is obviously wrong. Of course you can list every OP thing the game has ever had but that proves nothing other than the fact that balance outliers exist.

ZT Xperimentor5 votes

I concur entirely, the item builds were a big part of why I enjoyed playing in the first place, but have becoming increasingly linear.

Angry Monster11 votes

What stat is a tank supposed to have? Cause they all feel bad now.

Earl Eulrich7 votes

you are supposed to have a lot more stats then the opponent marksmen (->snowball or die) if you wanna tank anything in this game - and i´m afraid riot doesn´t intend to fix that. They seem pretty unconcerned with the double/tripple marksmen meta currently dominating pro-play.

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g9gwz5HM,comment-id=000300030000,timestamp=2016-01-20T22:37:45.414+0000)

you are supposed to have a lot more stats then the opponent marksmen (->snowball or die) if you wanna tank anything in this game - and i´m afraid riot doesn´t intend to fix that. They seem pretty unconcerned with the double/tripple marksmen meta currently dominating pro-play.

I don't recall a double or triple marksman comp in any recent pro games outside of ADC + Kindred jungle teams.

Retillin3 votes

Wasn't there (and I could be wrong because I watch way too many leagues from LCS,LCK,LMS,ect...) a Graves/Kindred/Kalista team this past week?

RiotMeddler20 votes

Binds to defensive stats of some form definitely, which exact stat may end up depending on the type of tank in question (intiatior versus support/peel tank for example). Suspect it'll end up being a mixture of both Health and Resists, rewarding them for going heavy defense compared to the offense/defense mixtures juggernauts and other fighters tend to favor.

How available CDR should be is the other thing we need to work on though, determine whether it should be equally accessible to all classes, easy to max out on some and hard to max on others without significant trade off, hard to max for anyone etc. When LoL initially launched CDR was only available on a few items, most of which weren't always good buys even for the champions that often wanted them (e.g. Frozen Heart or Spirit Shroud). Nowadays some classes expect to cap out CDR as part of their normal builds (ER marksmen especially), while others feel they're having to give up a lot to opt into CDR.

Retillin21 votes

I think the "free" CDR to marksmen was a mistake. It's the one class that shouldn't worry about it. And those that could use it the most tend to be poke champs (Corki/Varus/ect). It made it seem like mages/tanks got shafted that they have to give up so much while adcs didn't really have to give up anything.

Duke Anax7 votes

though mages usually get a lot more out of cdr than marksmen.

Marksmen usually have one off situational abilities, that aren't all that effective to spam.

Voluug134 votes

Corki Varus Lucian Sivir Ezreal and so on...

There are way more adcs with important skills that get a lot from spamming abilities that completely AA based adcs.

aperson12 votes

Is there a plan to shift the offensive ratios of tanks towards all AP/all AD? Right now it feels really bad to e.g. build a Sterak's on Sejuani (to survive physical burst) or an Abyssal on Sion (to lower enemy resists (although it's a bit of a stretch with the current version)), even though the two champs fulfill a similar role (initiator tank).

RiotMeddler14 votes

No plans to do so, no. Placing somewhat different value on different parts of the item pool's one of the ways in which champions can be distinguished from others in their same class (the tank with AD scaling, versus the tank who really likes MPEN, versus the tank who can get a lot of benefit from a massive mana pool etc).

Hellioning25 votes

As someone who plays a lot of mages, it's kind of disgusting how easy it is to get 45% CDR on a support mage and kind of disgusting how hard it is to get to anything above 20% on a damage mage.

Nekusen18 votes

{quoted}

As someone who plays a lot of mages, it's kind of disgusting how easy it is to get 45% CDR on a support mage and kind of disgusting how hard it is to get to anything above 20% on a damage mage.

and people wonder why mids have to buy item 3092 ...

though i liked building http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/4b/Twin_Shadows_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20130710102449 , not so much for the active (though it was fun as no one expected it), but because i really liked having MS and CDR along with reasonable AP in the same item.

exe32 votes

I built Twin Shadows for the active! It was nice having vision options beyond wards and trinkets for a role outside of support (especially Twisted Treeline, RIP TS on TT).

Rinky Dinky2 votes

What tanks are very strong right now

Melledoneus3 votes

Dr. Mundo, although I'd argue that he's more of a juggernaut himself.

Whoever says Tahm Kench is a tank will deserve a slap with my ring hand.

Angry Monster1 votes

i agree both are juggernauts, though tham seems to break the CC philo that they are supposed to have

Melledoneus4 votes

Tahm is a juggernaut that builds like a tank and survives like one, has the utility of a support, and the damage of an assassin. He doesn't fit into a category.

Catastrop4 votes

I feel like this is a round about way of saying, "He's an abomination."

Melledoneus2 votes

Got tired of using that word repetitively.

Valderis Vandala3 votes

Will the cooldown stat be a universal stat for all classes?

Meaning that all classes will have items that contain options for reaching a high amount of cooldown, so that players will be able to itemize for it if they desire it over other benefits? Like ADC's are able to now.

Sire Hippington4 votes

I'm not really sure if the benefits from 'Stat Binding' outwight the costs of it, unless it's a rather soft binding. The benefit from Stat Binding is that itembalance gets less tricky as you can more easily avoid abuse cases on champs that werent intendet to use the item. However, the problem that i see is that one needs a far bigger 'totall item-pool'(items aviable in the shop) to achive the same '**effective **itempool'(items that are **viable **on a specific champ), and balanceing far more items sure brings it's own problems. Aditionally a bigger total itempool means more clutter in the shop and a higher burden of knwoledge. And depending on how much effort you put into expending the itempool, this would probably mean less room for customization of item builts, pushing alternate playsyles away. This already happend for marksmen. Befor the changes, i could play many on the as pure casters, rushing ER into LW and continueing to get ad/pen and cd, usually with a trinity for some dps. Another variation that kinda died was the drain-tank, useing hurricane and 1-2 lifesteal items. The reason why i went for those builts was simple: i hate RNG, so i avoid crit. Now those builts don't exist anymore, if i play a marksman i have to go crit, there is no other way, which kinda killed marksman for me this season.

I also disagree with pushing diving fighters(asuming irelia, jax and co) towards resistances. While a diving fighter has more target selection than a juggernaut, it still isn't that high, and they have to go AND STAY in harms way. The aim is to dive into the backline, which usually happens based on opportunity. The backline usuallly holds atleast one physicall damage carry and one magical damage carry, aswell as atleast one peeling dude. This means attacking the backline and staying there usually opens you for mixed damage. Aditionally, you prime target is the adc, who usually deals physicall damage, while most protective champs deal magical damage, often even %health, so even if you only dive the prime target and their ap-carry is somewhere else, you usually have to deal with mixed damage. And adc are still so dominant as damge source that stacking mr and diving the mage is not a great idea. Aditionally, the backline are usually those guys that get %pen, so you would 'select' the targets that generally counter your defense...

Angry Monster8 votes

i have a problem with this

Tanks Armor, MR

Riot has made defensive stats like that are useless with out health. Plus most tanks have passives or skills that scale with health (ex mao or naut). Riot never gives high enough base stats for anything for end game.

I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying concerned that tanks are going to get even worse. ( Tanks are at all time low currently)

BastionKross2 votes

He addressed this. Just like the marksman rework and the mage rework, the tank rework will most likely:

  1. Make tank champions have high base HP and above average HP growth at the expense of lower base resists.
  2. Change HP scaling to armor/MR scaling. Or just keep the HP scalings, since there's still plenty of items that give resists and HP.

Just think of Rammus, or Taric, or Malphite here. They stack armor, get damage. The problem right now is that if you stack armor you don't have HP and aren't as tanky as a balanced approach. But if Riot buffs their HP to the point where they get enough to build three thornmails and still have a respectable HP bar, then tanks will actually be quite scary.

Angry Monster4 votes

I repeat

Riot never gives high enough base stats for anything for end game.

Riot's stance has always been that base stats for damage are supposed to be enough to be a threat. We all know they aren't.

The 3 you mention always do so well at end game. Kappa

BastionKross1 votes

They do, you just have to be one of their favorite champs, like Lee or Vayne.

And are you implying that Taric isn't godlike late game? Or that Malphite's damage falls off despite his armor scalings? Rammus is the only one you could make an argument for getting weaker late game, since marksmen can purchase last whisper and it's upgrades with lifesteal by then.

YumaS2Astral3 votes

{quoted}

They do, you just have to be one of their favorite champs, like Lee or Vayne.

And are you implying that Taric isn't godlike late game? Or that Malphite's damage falls off despite his armor scalings? Rammus is the only one you could make an argument for getting weaker late game, since marksmen can purchase last whisper and it's upgrades with lifesteal by then.

Malphite's damage is better at mid game where champions don't have enough tankyness to whitstand his base damages and he has a decent amount of armor. Once it comes late game, his damage fall off, not that hard due to his armor scaling, but it will fall off because his armor scaling is still not that high, and he doesn't build penetration.

Sire Hippington2 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Taric just take a llook at the winrate/gamelength fraph for those 3 They all drop in the end game.

WoonStruck2 votes

Nah, I don't think Riot has their heads on straight.

Good directions for the game if Riot actually decided to follow all of them them, though.

Hyrum Graff5 votes

{quoted}

Nah, I don't think Riot has their heads on straight.

Good directions for the game if Riot actually decided to follow them, though.

They already are. Somewhere on Ghostcrawler's ask.fm, he mentions how HP is a juggernaut stat, and you can look at juggernaut base stats yourself. Look at items like Zz'rot portal: full of resists. It's a tank item.

In repertoir's megathread, he talks about mana vs mana regen; if you read between the lines, you come to my conclusions.

WoonStruck2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g9gwz5HM,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-01-20T16:41:25.378+0000)

They already are. Somewhere on Ghostcrawler's ask.fm, he mentions how HP is a juggernaut stat, and you can look at juggernaut base stats yourself. Look at items like Zz'rot portal: full of resists. It's a tank item.

In repertoir's megathread, he talks about mana vs mana regen; if you read between the lines, you come to my conclusions.

Mana is a mage stat, and they will push it towards such. I agree.

HP is a juggernaut stat, and they will push that. I agree.

I don't think Riot will significantly buff tanks to have higher resists. Nobody uses Zz'rot portal, and frankly, nobody ever will because its buggy, scales terribly, is too easy to completely negate for the CD, and there are always things you need more.

There's no way for them to add heavy resists to tanks without doing an overhaul of all of the champions, which Riot will never do because it won't net them much money or direct thanks.

There's no way they're going to buff tank items, because that makes juggernauts overbearing if they buy even one. Besides, tank items consistently get nerfed if they actually make tanks tanky.

RookPusher4 votes

{quoted}

I don't think Riot will significantly buff tanks to have higher resists. Nobody uses Zz'rot portal, and frankly, nobody ever will because its buggy, scales terribly, is too easy to completely negate for the CD, and there are always things you need more.

I came in to disagree and (probably) get downvoted.

If I'm running a tank support (Bruam, Thresh, Shen, Maokai) I always take the portal for three reasons:

  1. Stats. I like the armor/resist and I love the speed.

  2. It's another money maker once the laning phase is over.

  3. If you need to clear a lane, as a tank support without wave clear, you can either sit down there and slowly pick away at them, or you can drop a portal and clear the lane much faster.

I'ts not useless, it's just not for everyone.

More from Gameplay

More by Hyrum Graff