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I've played many Shen games on the PBE, and I'm incredibly sad.

Melledoneus··15 votes·1,144 views

Riot. Why...?

You were meant to rework Shen, not destroy his stats. Right now it's the most difficult thing to hit even 200 armor with Shen because you, Riot, decided to cut his armor scaling IN HALF. I understand trimming it a bit, but essentially cutting his armor by 35-37 late game is absolutely uncalled for. He now has 2.6 scaling armor, the third lowest behind Gnar's 2.5 (this is a champion that gets REALLY tanky during his mega form) and Thresh's 0 (infinite armor scaling.). The two lowest have some way to compensate, such as Gnar's armor buff during Mega form and Thresh's souls giving him armor. Shen has none of that.

Riot. I am going to quote you on your announcment for Shen.

First things first: Shen’s staying largely faithful to his original design. He’s still a tanky energy-based champ, and his E and R are pretty much identical.

Right. When I read this, I breathed out a sigh of relief. "I am so glad he's still a tank," I told myself. Riot, what have you done to Shen? You turned him into an awkward melee Orianna with no sustain. Fine, shields can make up for it, right? No, but then you essentially gutted his armor scalings... why? Is he not supposed to be a tank? Riot, tanks need good armor scalings. Every other tank in the game has better armor scalings than Shen right now. Even ADCs get better armor scalings than Shen! Why?!?

Riot, I had faith in you to stay "largely faithful to his original design," but you turned Shen into an awkward bruiser who is punished for trying to be a tank. That is not faithful to his design at all. That is far from it. Not only did you take away the sustain that Shen mains loved, but you turned Shen into an abomination that can't do his job properly. Riot, I don't know who decided it was a good idea to make Shen squishier than every single top laner in the game. You promised us this:

smart and dextrous Shen players get to morph into mighty unkillable supertanks.

But instead we got this:

smart and dextrous Shen players will be completely destroyed in team fights because they can't seem to hit the optimal amount of armor for a tank.

The Shen I knew was a reliable tank who got stronger as the game progressed. If he got fed, he could build defense and protect his teammates. Full tank Shen was what true Shen mains would build, because his passive gave him the means to deal with enemies. Now we have an awkward bruiser whose core item is Titanic Hydra because the only thing that does damage in his kit is his dash. If you don't fix what you have broken, Riot, Shen mains everywhere will become discouraged and you will have ruined yet another champion. Don't repeat what happened to Cassiopeia.

Sincerely, a very saddened Shen main.

Tl,dr: Shen = tank. Shen is now /= tank because Riot took item 1031 Shen = Orianna - item 1052 Shen -> item 3748 or dead. Shen players = item 3070 item 3070

48 Comments

shyv6 votes

really not looking forward to his rework :^(

Melledoneus2 votes

It would have been much better if he at least kept his armor scalings. As long as his dash and ult are the same, I'll feel at home.

Drathel2 votes

I haven't played him because i dont have PBE. This is very sad though. I always loved having a nice supertank Shen on my team...

Melledoneus2 votes

It is. If you played him on the PBE and tried to build tank you'd notice how difficult it is to survive. That lack of armor really hurts him.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Sounds like what they did to mordekaiser, thought they learned that lesson.

Melledoneus1 votes

At least everyone listened to Malicious Metal...

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

The community did, and several players predicted it in the beta; but riot did it anyway and it's taken them what, 5 patches to start fixing their error? I don't trust or hold faith in them after they started becoming obsessed with reworking instead of tweaking champions. Out of the dozen they've done so far, poppy was the only decent one.

Jolly Rogered2 votes

Yea his top lane is going to be very specific. If you're playing draft and first pick I would def not pick Shen. He is easily hard countered now. I have seen people play Shen in the jungle now. He seems like a great counter gank with his ult. Oh well.

Melledoneus1 votes

He's terrible at all stages of the game now. He can't be a tank or a bruiser, but at the same time can't afford NOT to build armor. Riot turned him into a complete contradiction to what he's supposed to be and what his kit intends him to be.

Jolly Rogered1 votes

{quoted}

He's terrible at all stages of the game now. He can't be a tank or a bruiser, but at the same time can't afford NOT to build armor. Riot turned him into a complete contradiction to what he's supposed to be and what his kit intends him to be.

I just played a game of live Shen and man I'm gonna miss that champ, once this sh*t rework goes live. In his current state his animations are so smooth and for me exciting. I like how Warlord Shen's attack animations look and how he sticks his sword out when he taunts (they removed that on VU Warlord Shen). Now on the PBE rework, his attack animations are lame, and you got this clunky fucking spirit sword with a leash on it. WTF?

I really wanted Shen to get an update but not like this.

Melledoneus2 votes

But every time I try to post about it, the circlejerk patrol comes by and downvotes me to oblivion. I'm going to waut until it hits live, then when everyone has played it and hates it I will come out and tell everyone Riot lied to them.

Jolly Rogered1 votes

{quoted}

But every time I try to post about it, the circlejerk patrol comes by and downvotes me to oblivion. I'm going to waut until it hits live, then when everyone has played it and hates it I will come out and tell everyone Riot lied to them.

I hear you. They only care about how good he looks not about how he plays. The best case situation would be; Rework Shen goes live and gets shit on everywhere, then they buff him.

Paroe2 votes

Riot follows the trump business model when it comes to champions instead of the warren umbrella model.

You see, when champs are reworked 99% of the time theyre given to ANOTHER designer to be reworked instead of the original designer taking a crack at fixing the problems that have arisen; the result is champions are "Bought" by other designers and are OFTEN completely changed into how the NEW DESIGNER wants them to be and not how they were meant to be originally.

this is called the trump business model; Buy a (successful) company and change it how you want it to be changed. This OFTEN leads to FAILURE.

The warren umbrella model is the exact opposite; Buy a successful company and give it an umbrella when things start to fail, and simply let it go when the failure is due to controllable things and not the economy.

If shen were reworked according to the warren umbrella: Passive: the new Q is a GREAT idea for a new passive, actually. +10/12/14/16% current health damage on 3 basic attacks (that also have 175 range) every so often and restores a lump of energy. Q: MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 120 / 160 / 200 / 240~~ (+ 60% AP)~~ (0.05 total HP) Q: HEAL PER SECOND: 1% of total health / 2% / 3% / 4% / 5% (+1% per 50AP) Q: Instant heal: 10% of missing HP/12%/14%/16%/18%

W: SHIELD: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+10% bonus HP)

this keeps shen largely the same - faithful - to the original design and just modernizes things; HP scaling would have been HUGE on shens Q and W to make him so much better than he was without breaking him because the most useful abilities were his utility.

Riot keeps using the word "faithful" without actually realizing what it means im afraid... Faithful means number changes or making largely unnoticeable things more noticable (take the passive, for example; changing it to %health for 3 hits would be a GREAT change that shifts the power in his kit slightly more to tank jungler and off tank buster. )

Quepha2 votes

I don't think looking at his base stats is a good way to determine his power level. From the footage I've seen of him on the pbe, he still seems to be able to perform quite well and the armor from his build will dwarf whatever his base stats would have been before or after these changes.

I think the reason for this probably comes from his incredibly powerful W that still makes Shen basically unstoppable against any AD laners regardless of what his armor base would be. Having something that capable of shutting the enemy down should mean that if he uses it incorrectly, an AD opponent would need to be able to get some solid damage off during the cooldown period.

Kinda like how new Shen is now allowed to actually have base hp regen because his Q doesn't just give him a ton of regen for free but in the other direction.

Melledoneus1 votes

I've played over 15 games on the PBE. To put it in short, Shen used to counter Riven. Now he can't even lane against Lee Sin top anymore. And that matchup was a really easy one before.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

I've played over 15 games on the PBE. To put it in short, Shen used to counter Riven. Now he can't even lane against Lee Sin top anymore. And that matchup was a really easy one before.

Sunday night I watched a guy destroy a Lee Sin top with the new Shen on the PBE.

Melledoneus1 votes

Most people on the PBE don't know what they're doing. On that note, if the guy was destroying Lee Sin top, then you know for a fact that he was not building full tank.

I had the pleasurable experience of going against a duo top of Riven and Lee Sin. With Live Shen, I would have outscaled them both and won lane. Instead, the Riven got a Tiamat and started shredding me when I had built a Randuin's. I'm sorry, but you know something's wrong when you can't hit 200 armor with 3 armor items on a tank.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Most people on the PBE don't know what they're doing. On that note, if the guy was destroying Lee Sin top, then you know for a fact that he was not building full tank.

I had the pleasurable experience of going against a duo top of Riven and Lee Sin. With Live Shen, I would have outscaled them both and won lane. Instead, the Riven got a Tiamat and started shredding me when I had built a Randuin's. I'm sorry, but you know something's wrong when you can't hit 200 armor with 3 armor items on a tank.

You're mad because you lost a 1v2? shouldn't that be expected? Not to mention that I'm almost certain the Riven matchup should now be a lot better for Shen because of his W regardless of how much armor he has. The matchups I'd expect to get worse would be AD casters that don't really rely on auto attacks (like Illaoi, a champ I watched this guy beat repeatedly) and Riven simply needs her autos to hit.

Melledoneus1 votes

I'm not mad that I lost a 1v2. Every other game ended up being the same way: me trying to be a tank and failing because I had 170 armor rather than 200. I main Shen, and this new one I can live with if his scaling armor wasn't so damn low.

Also, the W lasts only 1.75 seconds, and it wasn't like I made mistakes to lose lane... in fact, I proved to be much more skilled than my two opposing laners. However, I was getting shredded like a squishy because Riot gutted Shen's scaling armor. If I build like a tank on a tank, I want to be a tank.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

me trying to be a tank and failing because I had 170 armor rather than 200.

That really doesn't seem like that big of a difference. A 10% reduction in EHP when your W is so freakin' powerful against that same kind of damage

Melledoneus1 votes

That's 2 and a half cloth armors of armor, buddy. Don't tell me that's "not that big of a difference." If you have ever played a tank, you would know this.

And, as I mentioned, the W gives you 1.75 seconds of dodge then goes on cooldown for a good 16 seconds. That's enough time for a jungle camp to kill me, let alone a champion.

Also, I have no clue what EHP is. Please elaborate.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

That's 2 and a half cloth armors of armor, buddy. Don't tell me that's "not that big of a difference." If you have ever played a tank, you would know this.

And, as I mentioned, the W gives you 1.75 seconds of dodge then goes on cooldown for a good 16 seconds. That's enough time for a jungle camp to kill me, let alone a champion.

Also, I have no clue what EHP is. Please elaborate.

EHP stands for Effective Hit Points which is the easiest way to quantify how much damage resistance adds to your survivability. Basically you convert all of your actual hp and resistances into how much hp it would represent if you had zero resistances at all. The way damage reduction is calculated due to Armor and MR in this game also makes it very easy to calculate what they add to your EHP.

At 0 armor, your EHP against physical attacks is exactly the same as your actual HP. Every point of armor adds 1%. At 100 armor your EHP gets a bonus of 100% meaning it is effectively doubled because you take half damage from physical attacks. 100 more armor brings you to a 200% bonus, or effectively triple, because you have a 66.67% damage reduction.

So comparing 170 armor to 200 armor represents a 2.7x multiplier vs. a 3.0x multiplier of your actual hp into effective hp, which is a 10% reduction of your total EHP.

And given that the duration of your total and absolute immunity to auto attacks is longer than 10% of the cooldown, and you can choose when to use that ability to block the opponents' strongest autos, and engages are rarely a full 16 seconds long anyways, it still seems like a really fair trade off.

Melledoneus1 votes

Ok, but we're talking EHP. That's comparing HP and armor, and Shen's new W was meant to replace the sustain and unconditional shield he lost with the rework. You're trying to compare oranges to grapefruits: sure, they're similar, but they're not the same thing. You can't say "this grapefruit is less sweet than this orange, therefore it's inferior." Similarly, you're comparing how much armor Shen lost and trying to justify it with the mechanic on his W.

Regardless, I doubt you've actually played the new Shen, so you wouldn't know how bad this armor scaling nerf is for him. 30 armor could be the difference between surviving a Riven's full combo and getting absolutely decimated. Also, since his identity is as a TANK, wouldn't you think nerfing his TANK stats is kind of odd?

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

30 armor could be the difference between surviving a Riven's full combo and getting absolutely decimated.

Her combo is probably like 4 seconds long, a W during that completely destroys her damage output. I know he lost other things on his kit but I think his W adds up to all that was lost and more. His passive shield is still pretty reliable compared to his old W, plus it is generally stronger for most of the game with better scaling, he got more base hp regen to make up for what he lost on Q, his health pool starts a little lower but by around level 4 or 5 the scaling takes over and is even bigger than it used to be...

Also, since his identity is as a TANK, wouldn't you think nerfing his TANK stats is kind of odd?

Tanks in this game, to me, always seemed to become tanky primarily through their build rather than their base stats. They really just need a kit with enough utility and/or damage without building damage so they can justify building tank.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted} His passive shield is still pretty reliable compared to his old W, plus it is generally stronger for most of the game with better scaling, he got more base hp regen to make up for what he lost on Q, his health pool starts a little lower but by around level 4 or 5 the scaling takes over and is even bigger than it used to be...

Right, but what compensates for the armor nerf? His W is to make up for his old style of fight-then-sustain. Now, instead of being able to poke down his enemies, Shen has to all-in just to deal damage. His Q is incredibly slow and anyone who is half-decent at the game knows it's coming. Shen has become on the of the most predictable champions in the game.

Tanks in this game, to me, always seemed to become tanky primarily through their build rather than their base stats. They really just need a kit with enough utility and/or damage without building damage so they can justify building tank.

Right. But you have to remember that tanks need to start out with some form of survivability, since they're not building lifesteal or damage to fight. Shen is one such champion, who lost his early game sustain in favor of a more position-oriented playstyle. If Riot really wanted to make Shen a tank, Titanic Hydra wouldn't be his core item. Now that his base damages are all but obsolete, he has nothing but an auto-attack oriented style of combat. That in itself should justify higher armor because he's going deep into the enemy's combat zone to fight them. Then why should someone like Caitlyn, who literally stands back a large distance and autos, get more scaling armor than Shen? It makes no sense.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

but what compensates for the armor nerf?

His W, he's already crazy strong against AD champs, he doesn't also need amazing base armor on top of that. His loss of sustain on Q is compensated by more sustain on hp regen, his loss of a reliable shield for trades is compensated by a slightly less reliable shield on passive that also doesn't need ability points to stay relevant and is just generally always stronger at every point in the game.

Right. But you have to remember that tanks need to start out with some form of survivability

Like the shield he has on passive starting at level 1 when before he'd have to wait til level 2, 3, or even 4, which is also always and forever going to shield for more damage than his old shield, or his high base health which gets even higher than it used to, or his ability to just ignore enemy autos on demand. The slight loss of scaling armor from levels when the armor he gets from items would dwarf that value doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Overall, new Shen looks a lot scrappier and more capable of trading to make up for his inability to sit and take potshots at his opponent with daggers.

New Shen still has a lot of ways to take punishment from the very start of the game.

If Riot really wanted to make Shen a tank, Titanic Hydra wouldn't be his core item.

It scales with health, has a ton of health on it, and gains absolutely zero benefit from AD, that item was designed from the ground up for tanks.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

His W, he's already crazy strong against AD champs, he doesn't also need amazing base armor on top of that.

His base armor was average. It was never "amazing." Also, his armor scaling was on par with champions like Annie and Anivia, Also champions like Darius, Maokai, and Hecarim who charge straight into the team and take a lot of hits, just like Shen. Most champions have higher base armor than Shen, and just cutting his scaling armor so dramatically was not the way to go. Reducing it from 4 to 3.4 would have been more fair, since while I do understand that his W would give reason to reduce his armor, he would need a LOT more to make up for the armor they took away.

The slight loss of scaling armor from levels when the armor he gets from items would dwarf that value doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Overall, new Shen looks a lot scrappier and more capable of trading to make up for his inability to sit and take potshots at his opponent with daggers.

First of all, the amount of scaling armor they took was not "slight." They took Shen, who had among the highest scaling armor in the game, to the second lowest, not counting Thresh. That is so absurdly dramatic. Let me give you a comparison to provide clarity.

Let's say a champion has 100 scaling HP. That means they get a bonus of 1800 HP at level 18. So Riot cuts their scaling HP to 50. That means they're essentially losing 900 HP at level 18. That's devastating. I know it's not the most comparable if you want to get nitty-gritty into the numbers and etc, but you get what I'm saying? A change all the way to 2.6 means that instead of getting 72 armor at level 18, he gets 46.8. Especially since Shen is a tank, a nerf that huge would make him extremely weak and unviable compared to other top laners.

It scales with health and gains absolutely zero benefit from AD, that item was designed from the ground up for tanks.

Wrong. Titanic Hydra was made for BRUISERS. The main difference between bruisers and tanks is that tanks build full resistances, relying on damage mitigation and acting as a brick wall for carries. Bruisers put pressure through damage, and Titanic Hydra helps with that. Tanks like Maokai, Rammus, and Sion generally don't build Titanic Hydra because they rely on abilities more, and are meant to lock down and protect squishies.

Bruisers like Renekton and Shyvana benefit from Titanic Hydra because their autos are key to their kit. They are the titans that consume your cooldowns or your carries die.

Riot specifically promised that Shen is a tank. And they told us that Shen's being kept largely faithful to his original design as a dueling tank. TANK. Not bruiser.

Abyssphere2 votes

I don't get why everyone is complaining about his lack of armour scaling. No shit you get less armour when you have an ability that gives you 100% damage reduction from auto attacks for a while.

Melledoneus2 votes

Because 1.75 seconds of dodge on a 16 second cooldown is worth half my scaling armor. Logical.

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

Because 1.75 seconds of dodge on a 16 second cooldown is worth half my scaling armor. Logical.

That is clearly what they think.

Melledoneus1 votes

But you just stated that you "don't get why everyone is complaining about his lack of armour scaling."

Wouldn't that mean that's what YOU think?

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

But you just stated that you "don't get why everyone is complaining about his lack of armour scaling."

Wouldn't that mean that's what YOU think?

Sorry, by "they" I mean Riot. The dodge mechanic and the otherwise terrible armour are obviously based on Shen having windows of being invulnerable to physical damage, balanced by windows of being weak to it in comparison to other tanks. He shouldn't be as resistant as other tanks to physical damage when he can completely avoid AA damage for large portions of team fights.

It's possible he's undertuned, obviously, but the basic idea makes sense.

Melledoneus1 votes

If Shen's armor is going to be that ridiculously low, then up the W time to 2.5 seconds. It's only fair.

The Loveless1 votes

You have a GREAT set of tools to win the lane and shut down your opponent with little damage received. Late game, Shen's shield will pop up constantly because of the lower lvl18 cooldown and his energy management mechanics being good as well. I've been doing fine with him on PBE. Giving him more armor will just make him more oppressive than he needs to be.

What other champ do you know will get that many shields mid and late game?

Melledoneus1 votes

How is Shen oppressive when the only thing on his kit that has base damages is his E? He has literally no range now, he's supposed to be a threat to squishy ADs. I understand if they wanted to shave his scaling armor off a bit, but cutting it in HALF is simply ridiculous.

The Loveless1 votes

He can deal 15-21% max hp depending on your q placement, with a bonus 50% attack speed. It's also a pretty short cooldown, so it sounds like he's a threat to tanky enemies as well. That's not even counting the regular damage he does from auto attacks and on-hits.

Melledoneus1 votes

That's max rank Q. And he has to land the slowest and most predictable skillshot in the game, wait 2 seconds for his sword to pass through them, THEN start auto attacking them. By that time they've already walked off, laughing.

Let's not forget that the % HP damage is almost powerless against squishies that have insane AD burst that Shen once used to counter.

The Loveless1 votes

Hm. Well, I don't know what you've experienced, but from my pbe games and from what I see Redmercy and Pants doing, Shen seems perfect and ready to be added to live. I've had games where I rush triforce or titanic hydra and don't suffer much damage due to my shield being good enough.

Armor doesn't multiply (percentage-wise) that high anyway. 35-37 won't add that significant of a percentage to physical damage reduction. But this is all my two cents on the matter from personal experience and what I've seen.

Melledoneus1 votes

Ah. Now I get it. Ok, we're talking about two completely different build paths here.

My main issue besides the armor is that Shen is punished for building full tank now. Before, Shen's passive gave him decent damage in trades and his Q was very effective against squishy top laners. Now he has to build damage to do that.

Also, I know that 35-37 armor may not seem like much of a difference at higher armor amounts, but it makes a lot of differenve when your opponent has armor pen. You have that buffer armor to retain most of your damage mitigation against flat pen. Not to mention it also means that your armor is still more effective against Last Whisper. Top lane combo champs like Riven can build BC and cut through 25 armor in seconds, so 35-37 armor really helps to survive that. That's why it matters so much more.

Shen may seem perfect as a bruiser, but players like me who build him strictly tanky now suffer for building him like the tank he was meant to be. Riot doesn't want Shen to be built full tank anymore, which is, in my opinion, not faithful to his original design.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

he's supposed to be a threat to squishy ADs.

That has NEVER been Shen's role. At all.

He is a split pusher with global presence that allows him to protect his own squishy ADs by jumping in to save the day and locking down the enemy. He becomes a brick wall that will slowly take down towers while being hard to duel (or at least hard to duel quickly) and will jump back to his team to use his abilities to aid them.

He has always been Tank/Support, assassin was never his role.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

That has NEVER been Shen's role. At all.

I'm talking about top lane... -_-

He becomes a brick wall that will slowly take down towers while being hard to duel (or at least hard to duel quickly) and will jump back to his team to use his abilities to aid them.

Exactly! You, sir, deserve a cookie. I couldn't have said it better. Which is exactly why Shen needs armor and not stupidly enormous nerfs to his scaling. Shen is contradictory as a champion right now. He's supposed to scale best into late game, but Riot removed his armor late game, so what the hell are they doing?

Calabok1 votes

just drink some good coffee and be happy.

The Voids Call1 votes

To be fair, i don't think riot really gives a flying fuck about shen atm. Considering that TahmKench is more or less just a better version of the same thing. Better healing, better shielding, better damage, tankier, more CC, higher base stats. The only thing tahm is weaker at is ulting. Unless you travel with a friend, in which case tahm is still better in a lot of ways.

Melledoneus2 votes

Riot better revert the nerf on his scaling armor. I don't give two shits about a 1.75 second dodge, you can't take away 35 armor from a tank and magically expect them to do well.

The Voids Call1 votes

At least not one who don't have any specific reason to build armor. Maybe do it to like rammus or taric because they are likely to build up to 300+ armor anyway.

Melledoneus1 votes

The two lowest scaling armor champs are Gnar and Thresh, both of whom more than make up for it with their kits. Shen has nothing like that, so he has the worst scaling of armor in the game as of now.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/yKjEFZsY-shens-flipping-ninja-rework

Meh that minimally is what's wrong with shen so far. If those get implemented and he's still weak after 2 weeks riot can just buff him again.

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