Why was sorcery runes nerfed when mages already have the worst runes?

bywords70·Dec 15, 2017·22 votes·2,031 views

mages already don't have a viable keystone yet you nerf this line for literally no reason.

time to play ad champions, always relevant even when the enemy team stacks armor.

66 Comments

xShiNjiNxDec 15, 201720 votes

Why was sorcery runes nerfed when mages already have the worst runes?

What the fkn kind of biased BS is this loooool.

Votable JesterDec 15, 20175 votes

Yeah, I play mages and the runes are fine.

The only thing I dislike with them is the lack of variety, but Riot has mentioned something about possibly adding more keystones in the future?

Zenthon PrimeDec 15, 20171 votes

Riot's already working on a 4th keystone in Resolve for juggernauts and other tanky bruisers. We'll probably end up with 4 keystones in every tree (plus 12 minor runes) by S9 like what happened in Preseason 6 with the last rune system.

What Is SmiteDec 15, 20171 votes

They are reworking grasp, not necessary a 4th keystone

HäxelDec 15, 20174 votes

Nope you need to get up to date. The grasp changes got reverted on pbe. You can also look up at meddlers latest Gameplay thoughts from 13tj December.

What Is SmiteDec 15, 20171 votes

I did read that the changes got reverted, though I don't really pay attention to things meddler says because.... well look at S7 Worlds and how that turned out because of blatant refusal to nerf ardent when the entire community was calling for it

HäxelDec 15, 20173 votes

Wow. Mistakes can be made by everyone and the balance descision was kinda understandable cause before worlds no one realy plaed ardent supports. Balancw team didn't wanna nerf something that saw even rarly play before. And than nearly everyone played it beside early of worlds some trys and final stage the start of the misfits strategie (ardent mid/jungle instead). Still worlds had a high champ diversity, probaly highest for lol proplay. Even if ardent overshadows it. The fact that comunity cried for this doesn't say much. Comunity for example cried recently why riot wanted to buff yasuo while he was cleary on a realy weak state.

What Is SmiteDec 15, 20171 votes

Yes mistakes can be made, but I do have an email from a Rioter within the company that even the majority of them internally believed the decision to not nerf the item before worlds was a terrible one. Moving over to your comment about Yasuo, what people and Riot's balance team fail to realize is that: Yes 12% extra damage that activated Press The Attack for Yasuo was removed however if he were to Q>Q> Whirlwind Q followed by R his ult would still receive that 12% damage bonus along with the following auto's doing 24% extra damage (accounting for the 50% Arm Pen his ult granted him) until his Ult buff ran out, this would provide him more than enough damage to pick-up 1-2 kills then leave the fight. Meddler's current Ideology is buff everything, whereas a game like League needs significant buffs/nerfs to be applied in equal amounts every patch so that content doesn't become stale and centered around one archetype of champions.

HäxelDec 15, 20171 votes

On the other side people complained about the mr buff too while you just told me something how Yasuo can still do damage. And even the top performing/high elo Yasuo mains had bad winrates this preseason. One reason would/could be the removing of the mr runes on him. Buffing his mr to nearly equaly to that of every other melee (they forgot, again, to rise the 30 start mr to 32.1) helps him but is not the end of the world. It helps especialy on toplane again. Toplane Yasuo was always stronger as midlane Yasuo but while the remove of old runes and masteries rwmoved both startstats, mr and magic pen, it hurt Top Yasuo more cause tanks didn't even go Magipen before but have bow the profit of the removw of mr runes from most champions. Now the mr buffs together with the other Yasuo/fighter buffs could help at leastTopyasuo to get a positve winrate with midlane Yasuo probably again having a slightly weaker winrate (maybe tip will be above 50%, mid under) till riot changes him more signficantly. Can't agree nuch with that " uff everythibg ideology" part . This happens realy rarly ad mwddlers role alone os it not even to decide that.

Wînter FoxDec 15, 201718 votes

Wtf? Sorcery is easily the best tree. Even Fighters are going Aery

DoktorKaiserDec 16, 20171 votes

Yes because it is good on everyone but mages, except maybe a few like Brand or Malzahar that have targeted single target dots. Most mages have only 1 option and that is comet, and some of them like Viktor don't have any decent options.

Succubús GFDec 15, 201713 votes

Sorcery runes got nerfed bc of adcs Legit adcs ruin everything

ShadowParkerDec 15, 201711 votes

Mages definately don't have the worst runes. In fact I'd argue they're on par with adc runes which are great for them.

I can see why they were nerfed.

NyarlathοtepDec 15, 2017

On par with adc? How exactly? I would argue the strongest runes in the sorcery are manaflow band and gathering storm after 30 mins. Comet deals low dmg and can be avoided with ease. Phase run is straight up weaker than the previous mastery ( Stormraider's Surge). Aery is only picked on supp and mages that want reliable dmg ( because comet can miss ). Nullifying orb is good against ap burst ( but then again usually you can avoid the burst of mages its not like they are point and click like adc's) . And while the hat sounds good, its best used on champs that wont buy a lot of cdr and have their ulti on low cd.

Transcendence i dont even know why would want to pick it, outside of supports ofc. Celerity is picked on a small handful champs, mostly because they cant make good use of absolute focus. And absolute focus is meh since you have to always stay healthy to gain that small amount of ap-ad. As for scorch, my god it sucks but its the best compared to the others, or rather the most reliable. Reasons why it sucks: it has cd, delay before the dmg, no scale and the base sucks. Waterwalking requires you to be in the river to provide you a decent amount of ms and a tiny amount of ad-ap. And gathering storm is non existent before 30 mins.

So again how is it better? Hell in precision they have a rune that should be in sorcery, presence of mind but it isnt for some reason.

HäxelDec 15, 20172 votes

Precision tree sucks for adcs in diversity. You could and probably should always run the riot page cause the rest is garbo: triumph, legend alacrity, coup, press the attack all time. Especialy the choices beside coup are weak. And triumph is sobstrong the others you don't want to pick as adc as well. Maybe legend Bloodline is an alternative, but most times thr as is just better. Same as most times press the attack is the best keystone.so adcs havr 4 runes, 5 runes that always suck and 3 that suck most times on adc. The fact that you say comet, celerity and scorch sucks like evey sorcery flamer while every pro agreed these 3 are insane strong, you take the 2 nonkeystone basicly everytime as secondary, means how biased you are.

NyarlathοtepDec 15, 2017

Precision tree sucks for adcs in diversity

At least they are strong.

The fact that you say comet, celerity and scorch sucks like evey sorcery flamer while every pro agreed these 3 are insane strong, you take the 2 nonkeystone basicly everytime as secondary, means how biased you are.

Oh tell me how on earth celerity and scorch dont suck? Please im begging you tell me. How do they not suck? Celerity again is picked on some champs that gain a lot of bonus movement speed buff. Actually in order to make use of it they have to do it also consistently. Scorch , again, has cd, delay and no scaling at all. HOW IN THE WORLD IS THAT STRONG? With this logic electro and comet are op since they have more base dmg and scaling. Electro has no delay and comet also is aoe. As for comet, compared to celerity and scorch is oke but its still weak since it requires the enemy to be stupid, aka to stand still ( or hesitate to move ). And which pro that you speak of say that those 3 are insanely strong? And yeah i pick both of them everytime because there arent better options. Phase run sucks, aery is for supports ( idk if i can make use of it i love big numbers) and both waterwalking and gathering storm are niche runes.

ShadowParkerDec 15, 20172 votes

The guy above me is correct on a lot of details. Celerity and Scorch are both amazing. There's a reason that they're both nerfed. You take celerity on immobile champions that want the movespeed, not so much the extra damage from bonus movespeed. You take scorch for a lot of early game poke, i.e. the most importat phase od the game plus scorch does scale with level. Electrocute is amazing if youre abke to utulize it and comet is almost always a good choice as it provides extra like despite it being dodgeable, you'd be surprised how often it isn't dodged or even how often it hits a different enemy. Aery is super strong damage wise because it's guaranteed and of course extra shielding. Phase rush can be utilized by certain characters only(it does need buffs but it definately isn't terrible). Waterwalking is for charafters that gank a lot (I take it on Taliyah), Gathering Storm is that late game room that if you can tell the game is gonna drag out take it. The runes are nichè.

The mage tree is amazing, and obviously a lot of people agree with me on seeing as you got downvoted a bunch. Its definately on par with the adc tree.

NyarlathοtepDec 15, 2017

You take celerity on immobile champions that want the movespeed, not so much the extra damage from bonus movespeed

Celerity on immobile? That sounds awful. That 3% wont help at all unless you expect to have alot of movement speed.

comet is almost always a good choice as it provides extra like despite it being dodgeable, you'd be surprised how often it isn't dodged or even how often it hits a different enemy

What if the enemy is good and dodges every comet that i throw him?

Aery is super strong damage wise because it's guaranteed and of course extra shielding

Aery is good if you can shield. Or you know that enemy can evade your comets.

Gathering Storm is that late game room that if you can tell the game is gonna drag out take it.

And even then ( late game, UNLESS its 50 min ) wont make that much of a difference.

Its definately on par with the adc tree.

It depends on how you look at it.

ShadowParkerDec 16, 20171 votes

That 3% is to make up for their lack of movement, it's actually great.

Assuming they dodge everything(which they wont), then it's still a solid rune as the enemy probably missed cs or on positioning opportunities to get a kill due to him constantly moving.

Aery does damage to? It's guaranteed if you can land an ability. People take it for the reliability, not just the shielding.

Even before 50 mins it still makes up for it.

It's on par in every way. You're just refusing to look at it as an equal to the adc tree despite it being equal

BlaQ GokuDec 15, 20172 votes

Scorch early damage is actually good for the same reason that aery is good, extra poke damage. Its like addding 50% more base damage on Kassadin Q at lvl 1 (40 on Q and 20 on scorch). That damage adds up in early laning phase.

Celerity is indeed more niche, but that is a good thing in terms of making varied play styles.

Comet misses only when a champion is consistently moving in one direction on ability hit, dashes, or has a movement speed buff. If the champion changes directions as the comet fires, it will consistently hit. Any slow almost guarantees a hit.

Electro does have a small delay.

Water walking is strong due to improving roam potential.

Phase rush is strong on certain play styles and is also biased just like stormraiders was. People underestimate that movement speed, and ease of use the rune provides.

Just some points i'd like to make toward your post.

HäxelDec 15, 20171 votes

Here, scara for example. Wanted to wait till its on Youtube: https://youtu.be/xTGCNyUwHSo Min 9.50. Scarra is between an ex pro, ex coach, was multiple times on zhe riot na analyst desk, currently Master-Challenger Streamer, main Mid but do to his situatuon with exDeltafox/Streammeamteam he played a variety of other roles as well. Ofc only one example but his opinion is the opinion of the most. Hard to believe but the balance team probably knows at least kinda what they are doing and most times don't give unnecesary buffs or nerfs. Also the 2 other guys here explained it good too. Probably you could watch other pros or analysts too, for example phreak.

NyarlathοtepDec 15, 2017

Well here's the problem when someone (usually someone that is high elo) says "x deserves to be nerfed". Some days ago, there was a lol player and youtuber, i dont recall his name. Anyway and he was talking about the problems of top lane. Some people were with his side and some ofc were not. Who is right? Thats the problem, some might defend him and say that he is right and some will say no he is not.

HäxelDec 15, 20171 votes

Hashinshin? Well he has some pros and cons. Hashinshin talked from his viw most times and the championpool he likes to play. And this is fair. Not saying Scarra is right all the time but he says himself often enoguh if the role he is palying is currently strong enough. Well you wanted to hear which pro. Thats one, i didn't see one saying scorch was weak. You laughed like there was none but actual you can't call me one that is with your opinion. You can look at diffrent champions on probuilds and will see it everytime. Same goes probably for celerity and Comet. There are things that have maybe a 50/50 opionshare and there are other things that have a 80/20 share. Or a 90/10 in highelo but a 40/60 in lowelo. Your argument Number 1 is that scorchs damage falls off lategame. Let me giggle. Currently we already have short games there the early counts the most. But even for logner games, if scorch helps you for a good early game you take it most times. And 60 Damage lategame is not bad either. Your argument Number 2 is that there are no other choices. How does it come that beside Mags other Roles go Sorcery as well? Not only have you Cometchamps on top, Adc and Support too currently as the best performing (looking at Mf, Jhin and Xerath Support), Sorcery Secondary is popular on any other tree combination as well, with Scorch and Celerity geting picked most times. Scorch, Comet, both strong on pokechamps. On bot these Champs rule at the moment with Varus, Mf, Jhin, Ashe and Ezreal. Soem adcs like Dominion secodnary curretnly more, thats fair. And some work with both fine. On toplane the Dominating Tanks like Ornn all take Sorcery secondary, at least in proplay. But even in casual youc ans ee Scorch getting picked on Champs like Malphite.

Eternal TormentDec 15, 20175 votes

Probably because of how much other champion categories can abuse the Sorcery runes as a secondary mastery. Ever had a Diana with Electrify, Scorch AND mana wave? (Or whatever that is called)

literal impossible laning phase

Chembaron YamadaDec 15, 20171 votes

Electrocute, Scorch and Manaflow Band, I guess you mean these? Didn't play against it, but sounds terrifying.

Eternal TormentDec 15, 20171 votes

It is. Take it on any assassin. sure you dont have as much sustain but FUCK this annoying permanent poke and lanesustain you get, on an assassin no less.

DurzakaDec 15, 20171 votes

This right here.

The combination of secondary runes is what makes Sorcery truly frightening.

Youve got the Scorch+Manaflow for sustain+poke. Or youve got Ultimate Hat + Transcendence for the crazy CDR. And a bunch of other combos.

Wheres you go look at precision, and youve got basically coup de grace and Triumph (triumph is OP af btw). And thats about it for secondary. And Resolve sucks ass for secondary. So if you dont want precision, youre choices are Sorcery and Inspiration, and of course, Inspiration is a utility based tree, so naturally everyone is leaning towards Sorcery.

BlåbæretDec 15, 20174 votes

Because ADCs were abusing them and still are. Sound familiar?

McFatalDec 15, 20174 votes

to state that mages have worse runes than fighters gives me a big yikes.

try to damage a malphite as a fighter top 15 minutes in when he has 300 armor and tabis and grasp and u have aery that does half of malphites passive shield.

DeathﬁreDec 15, 20171 votes

try to damage him as a mage if he has 300 MR LMFAO

McFatalDec 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcane Mage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g4qAaTeM,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-12-15T06:05:30.835+0000)

try to damage him as a mage if he has 300 MR LMFAO

ranged poke is easier to pull off than melee poke whereas u can keep poking him down as a mage.

DeathﬁreDec 15, 20171 votes

you realize malph engage outranges like 95% of mages poke and engage counters poke right? LMFAO

DurzakaDec 15, 20171 votes

You realize malphites engage is also his ultimate and one of the strongest team fight abilities in the game. If hes using it against you, thats a massive window to abuse afterwards.

DeathﬁreDec 15, 20171 votes

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DurzakaDec 16, 20171 votes

Nice job with the rank shaming. But you do you baby.

Engage counters poke. So why exactly is it a problem that you die to him? He is doing exactly what he is supposed to, and yet you bitch that he is doing just that.

Also, a Malphite with 2 or more MR items is not doing his job very well. Very few tanks in the game currently can afford to go more than 1 MR item, unless the enemy AP is fed (in which case they are forced to. leaving themselves even more vulnerable to the ADC).

Im not really understanding the point YOURE trying to make. You complain that a tank is being a tank. Just because his kit specializes in armor does not change that.

DeathﬁreDec 16, 20171 votes

[deleted]

DurzakaDec 16, 20171 votes

Im not the one who that said for mages to poke him down. Maybe you should pay more fucking attention to the people you are responding to.

I responded to you talking about his engage vs. poke and that there are ways to play around engage that is on a very long cooldown, which you flat out deny.

Tristanl0lDec 15, 20171 votes

implying item 3135 isn't infinitely stronger than item 3033 item 3036

uh oh here come the "mages are weak!!!" circlejerkers

[sg-miss-fortune]

NyarlathοtepDec 15, 20171 votes

While it is stronger mages dont deal dmg in the way adcs do, aka aa. Mages have to wait back their cd. Adc have to just be in range.

DeathﬁreDec 15, 20171 votes

huh? are you seriously implying AD champs dont have more tank shredding capabilities than AP? item 3147 item 3814 item 3124 item 3504 item 3153 item 3036 item 3071 item 3091 vs item 3135 item 3151 item 3020

Spank the FoxDec 15, 20173 votes

Resolve claims the worst non Keystone runes, thanks.

ShablagooDec 15, 20173 votes

Lol this is so funny, mages always come up with something to complain about when there isnt anything, my man olaf goes commet, so does mal, I have played aery rengar and seen aery riven too. What about the mage tree is bad?

Troll for TrumpDec 15, 20173 votes

Sorcery as a whole has the best runes. 2 Good keystones, 1 subpar one, just like with Precision.

Good minor runes from Precision: Triumph, Legend: Alacrity, Coup de Grace, Cut down, maybe Last Stand. Good minor runes from Sorcery: Manaflow Band, Nullifying Orb, maybe Ultimate Hat, Celerity, Transcendence, Scorch, Maybe Gathering storm

The other trees tend to never be seen as good, but should be looked at too:

Resolve has 2 good keyrunes, and 1 subpar one (I want to put Grasp as subpar too, honestly) Good minor runes from Resolve: Font of life, Demolish, maybe Unflinching, Revitalize, maybe second wind vs poke. Personally I like overgrowth, though I don't see many people taking it

Inspiration ACTUALLY has 1 good keyrune, with klepto just being abused by like 2 or 3 champs Good minor runes: Stopwatch, Biscuit, Future's Market, Magical Boots, Cosmic

But yeah, Sorc is the best