A Serious Question About Champion Development, Identity, and Balance

Goosetard··4 votes·4,664 views

Hello,

I'd like to ask an honest question to any reds who'd care to weigh in: Do you think a champion can have a bad identity, especially to the point where it should be changed? Let me clarify.

A lot of times when you discuss changes to a champion, you refer to a "core identity" that you prefer to make changes around but not to, even when the reworks are pretty extreme (take Sion, for instance). The Sion rework is a good example because I think a lot of people like where he's at now. He has interesting tools in his kit for laning, jungling, teamfighting, and has even seen some LCS play. Additionally, his kit now plays more in line with the core identity you tried to preserve: an undead juggernaut.

Now let's look at a champion who has historically been a nightmare to balance: Kassadin. If I cared to comb through and reread patch notes I'm sure I could find some paragraph about how you don't want to alter his ultimate too much because it's a "core mechanic central to his theme/identity (hyper mobile disruption assassin anti-mage... thingy) ." However, pulling into line a "core mechanic" of "I have a low-cd long distance blink" sounds like a pretty tough task. We could argue about how successful it's been but that's not my point. (This isn't a QQ kassadin thread, i don't even think he's that much of a problem anymore)

I respect the creative process and appreciate that focusing on building and developing ideas instead of scrapping them is a valuable part of that process. Part of good champion design is a "core identity" that can be worked around and fashioned into a healthy addition to the champion pool, and I think on the whole you guys do that very well. I'm not asking you to throw the dev team under the bus either, I'm just asking if you think a champion can have an identity that is so challenging to work with that it is better to scrap it and start fresh.

15 Comments

RiotMeddler11 votes

I'd argue it's definitely possible to have a champion with a core identity that isn't worth keeping. This will be a bit hyperbolic, but imagine a champion that was built around the core idea of 'complete randomness', expressed through things like a passive that reads 'When attacking champions you have a 50% change to kill yourself per auto attack and a 50% chance to kill your target'. There's a really distinct identity there, but it's not one that's going to result in good gameplay.

That's a pretty extreme example though of course, and one that assumes something went really, really wrong during a champ's development. Being more realistic, what we tend to see are problems with how an identity is executed on, more than problems with core identity. Old Soraka was a strong example of this. Soraka's identity has always been as the healerest healer in LoL (even if she hasn't necessarily always putting out the most actual healing). Her old, old kit however, that allowed her to spend mana to heal an ally and then top up her own mana for free, resulted in some lanes where nothing really happened. In some match ups Soraka's lane couldn't kill you, but damage dealt to her or her ADC didn't stick, resulting in low action farm fests. Our conclusion there, eventually, was that 'dedicated healer' was a solid identity it was appropriate to include, but that it needed to be done in a way that didn't nullify past action as strongly. As a result Soraka's recent rework allowed her to put out significantly more healing per second, but at the expense of her own health, avoiding stagnant lanes. Same foundational concept, pretty different execution on it basically.

XuWarrior5 votes

Evelynn you made from her that strange Tanky no good champion. So umm Nope . Bring Back AP assasin Eve ! If you see somehow evelynn as a tank you need explain me that deeply ;)

Duke Anax3 votes

The thing is nothing in her Kit says tank. It's just a lot of people think you need to build her that way. I don't really know why.

Her base defense is quite high, yes, but exactly that allows her to build full damage.

Tendrian6 votes

I'd argue it's definitely possible to have a champion with a core identity that isn't worth keeping. This will be a bit hyperbolic, but imagine a champion that was built around the core idea of 'complete randomness', expressed through things like a passive that reads 'When attacking champions you have a 50% change to kill yourself per auto attack and a 50% chance to kill your target'. There's a really distinct identity there, but it's not one that's going to result in good gameplay.

Hasn't a precedent for this kind of thing already been set with the Cassiopeia rework? I mean she is a sly. scheming noblewoman witch a sheltered upbringing who reaches her goals through manipulation and seduction while avoiding physical confrontation (in contrast to her sister)...

And the rework went ahead and gave her a kit centered around an all-in pattern that is realized by jumping into people's faces and dueling it out by spamming low-range nukes. It would be a challenge to design a kit that is further away from her "core identity".

So... if I may ask, what of the above applied to Cassiopeia that made her identity "not worth keeping"?

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

People are going to mention Cass so I'll mention other champions. Thresh, how does a soul collecting sadist turn into a support? How does a Spirit of Vengeance who takes someone's soul by consent turn into a dancing, scouting control freak who takes decisions out of the support's hands? I really don't want to get into Lee, and you know about Eve and hopefully Elise. A spider that wants to fight people with attack speed?

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

There's also Kha'Zix and Viktor, champions that are somewhat about evolution and adapting to an environment but are always built or rank up with the same patterns. There's Kassadin's identity that seems like a balance nightmare. Vi who somehow either has to much tankiness for an assassin or who should turn into a bruiser and remove the burst. Similar problem with J4.

Linna Excel3 votes

Old Soraka was a strong example of this. Soraka's identity has always been as the healerest healer in LoL (even if she hasn't necessarily always putting out the most actual healing). Her old, old kit however, that allowed her to spend mana to heal an ally and then top up her own mana for free, resulted in some lanes where nothing really happened. In some match ups Soraka's lane couldn't kill you, but damage dealt to her or her ADC didn't stick, resulting in low action farm fests. Our conclusion there, eventually, was that 'dedicated healer' was a solid identity it was appropriate to include, but that it needed to be done in a way that didn't nullify past action as strongly. As a result Soraka's recent rework allowed her to put out significantly more healing per second, but at the expense of her own health, avoiding stagnant lanes. Same foundational concept, pretty different execution on it basically.

Soraka was also a battlemage to some.

I'm one of the people who hate her new rework both for the feel and mechanically. Her mana costs are too high in a kit/role that can't support them and now she has a life cost as well. Also it's nearly impossible to take her mid/top anymore which is something that you could have done with her pre-nerf. Ghostcrawler mentioned riot shouldn't be smashing down alternate lane roles so I think you owe it to her fans to make her more solo-lane viable again.

RUNNING BACK TO BASE WHENEVER YOU PRESS W AND HAVING TO RUN BACK IS NOT FUN GAMEPLAY. Whichever rioter thought that a game play of constantly running back and forth from base is fun should apologize.

Her rework is a failure and I don't care about her bloody win rate.

  1. Fix her mana costs
  2. Remove her link between her W and Q and get rid of the life costs
  3. Tweak her so she can go mid/top again... keep her base damages the same but increase her AP scaling .05 or .1 and let her self cast her W
  4. Bring back her mana battery.
  5. Give her a new passive, I hate the current one, especially when you've got boots 1 and someone else with boots 2 and a mobility item is running away from you.
turkeyBACON1 votes

I like the rework for the most part, however I do think that Soraka needs to have the mana cost removed from her W/heal. It's a bit much. As a bonus it would be nice if the link was removed between q and w as well, so she gains some power from not having a wasted ability point. It would be amazing to allow her E apply minion damage as well.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Im not QQing here im asking this honestly. What is your opinion on Kalista's identity?

My opinion, totally excluding all the "Omg OPOPOP" and crying and whining about her kit, I think she somewhat missed her mark and became something totally different then intended. It seemed she was intended to be an ADC that relied on cooperating with your Oathsworn (Support most the time). Instead we have a champion who does just fine on her own and instead of cooperating she uses her support like a tool for more damage. The only reason i think this is because she has both infinite mobility and damage.

Raptamei1 votes

{quoted}

I'd argue it's definitely possible to have a champion with a core identity that isn't worth keeping. This will be a bit hyperbolic, but imagine a champion that was built around the core idea of 'complete randomness', expressed through things like a passive that reads 'When attacking champions you have a 50% change to kill yourself per auto attack and a 50% chance to kill your target'. There's a really distinct identity there, but it's not one that's going to result in good gameplay.

http://www.anuflora.com/game/wp-content/uploads/game/2015/01/pure-skill.png

You can easily preserve "randomness" as a theme without having actual randomness. For instance, Twisted Fate's Wild Cards.

Anything is possible. Kassadin CAN be balanced without nerfing his ult into oblivion. Bloodseeker ult CAN be implemented without burden of knowledge or false choice issues. Veigar CAN be given more counterplay without ruining his stun. It just takes willingness to try, instead of tossing out those elements without a second thought.

Yes, this is about Eve. Every other moba has balanced stealth. It is totally possible to balance stealth and give it actual play and counterplay (Xyph's implementation is pretty good). But if you just consider it impossible to balance, then of course you won't find a way to balance it. Same for Poppy's ult, etc.

Soraka's identity has always been as the healerest healer in LoL (even if she hasn't necessarily always putting out the most actual healing). Her old, old kit however, that allowed her to spend mana to heal an ally and then top up her own mana for free, resulted in some lanes where nothing really happened. In some match ups Soraka's lane couldn't kill you, but damage dealt to her or her ADC didn't stick, resulting in low action farm fests.

We know that Riot dislikes sustain because it isn't conducive to BIG PLAYS. But isn't that the opponent's problem to deal with? If they can't get through the sustain, and they picked properly, and they itemised properly, then that means the counters to sustain are too weak and should be buffed. It doesn't mean sustain is toxic.

In Dota, sustain is not toxic. There are some insanely strong heals, and yet the game is fine because you can counter heals. If the enemy healer turns a Dota lane into a sustain snoozefest, then it's your fault for not doing anything about it.

Why can't this be applied to League?

Celeste Benal1 votes

After playing Soraka in ARAM post rework, I actually liked her enough that I bought her and now sometimes play her as a support on SR. She can still be pretty pokey, deal good AoE damage with her Q, and can really turn a team fight with a well placed E.

The Whamboozler6 votes

Define "Identity" because I don't think that's very often realized in champs. Sometimes yes.... Sion is a good example. His kit and playstyle make you feel huge and powerful. Zed for all the QQ set at him FEELS like a shadow ninja. Fast. Bursty. Mobile. Often grossly unfair. If he wanted to fight fair, he wouldn't be a freakin' ninja... and a BAD GUY at that.

But then look at someone like Aatrox. What the holy hell IS Aatrox? His lore makes him into a mytical war god-type thing that inspires men to fury and strength they never knew they had... but drives them mad. So he... jumps around and auto attacks, with a revive passive and looks like Marilyn Manson with a shower curtain on his back. Nothing about his kit works.... either with his lore or his identity. I think this is a flaw in design... Aatrox feels rushed, generic and bland.

On the other hand, sometimes the result is from player input. Take the champ Aatrox WISHES he was... Tryndamere. He's a big, scary, angry barbarian who rages and refuses to die until he rips you in half. Ok. I can see how his kit is meant to invoke that. He has a heal that he needs to be doing damage to build up... he is all about auto attacks... he has a gap-closer to get in close and a slow/debuff to try and force you to fight him. Except that Tryndmere is often used as a glorified splitpusher who avoids fights for most of the game to beat up helpless minions and towers. Was he designed that way? Not really. But players often USE him this way, even though it's not really fitting an aggressive barbarian who wants to fight to say "you guys fight mid, I'll just push top and run if they come up here.". His kit is used for a playstyle not fitting his seeming identity because players decided it was a better use of him.

Then there's the dreadful Cass rework, where Riot decided that her "core identity" was "lategame hypercarry" and not "cool snake mage that poisons people". Instead of trying to emphasize her theme as a sly, poisonous person both reveling in and disgusted by her transformation at the same time... they instead focused on her entirely in mechanical terms. This is why a lot of people hated the rework. Because they liked Cassiopiea's old identity and new cass has a different one. Now she's an in-your-face lane bully who spams her E and her other two spells are only there as an afterthough to LET her spam her E. Her poison doesn't matter anymore and she now has a gimmick more appropriate for a powerhouse aggressive mage like Xerath or Ryze... someone who comes into lane and says "I AM MAGIC, BITCH! RESPECT IT!". She's not a sly, poisonous manipulator anymore... at least not gameplay wise.

Annoying as he is, TEEMO has a very strong identity and he's one of the few unique champs out there. He's built as a scout, stalker and hunter. He can't yolo at you. He has to plant traps... think ahead... hide and ambush... and basically... cheat. He's an underhanded little dude, but he'd HAVE to be. He's 3'1" and his weapon is a blowdart. Teemo is the only champ left with long-duration traps that actually matter, and that's his identity. To do well as Teemo you need to know where your opponents will go and lay in wait... traps in place... ready to jump them. Teemo without his shrooms is a squishy little yordle who dies REAL fast. But he'll play mindgames with you all day. Can you really get him, or is he baiting you into a minefield? Did he really leave lane or is he stealthed nearby waiting? Teemo DOES feel like the splitpush sort... putting the mission objectives above the glory of fighting and getting kills. He evades you... he lures you into bad spots and he puts you down with as little risk to himself as he can. His identity and kit mesh perfectly.

Some champs have a strong identity that their gameplay reinforces... some are at odds with their own archetype, and some could change drastically and still fit their "identity". Kass is a guy who saw the void, was changed forever by it, and now he's fighting back against it. Ok. Nothing in that screams "I can teleport everywhere". None of the void creatures teleport around. Malzahar doesn't either, and he's supposedly the void's main guy! So why does Kass? He's hugely resistant to magic damage. Ok, well that's nice I guess. Half the void champs are AD sorts, so his passive makes him better at killing Lux than most of the void monster... Not something that needs to be kept to keep his identity. He DOES have that bitchin sword though... and that's pretty iconic. Ok, so let's make Kassadin into a flash-stepping melee type who voidwalks in and rips you apart. That seems to be how most people see him. How about letting him keep his powerful mobility ult, but making him far squishier with few or NO spells that can be used at a range. He can have his silence back... but now his Q is melee range. Give him more damage, less durability and less range and give his ult a cooldown of about 10 seconds or so.... BUT have it cooldown in 2 seconds or so if Kass gets a kill. Ok, so now he's a bursty, mobile assassin who needs to make sure he'll take you out when he all-ins or he's stuck in there. If he plays it smart though he can pop in and out like he used to. This is all just theoretical, but it's just an example. You can keep a character's identity and change how he functions as a champion.

Teridax682 votes

I think Kassadin 's identity as a hyper-mobile assassin has a lot worth keeping (assassins are mobile by nature, and mobility as a mechanic isn't fundamentally flawed in itself). The problem, though, basically boils down to pre-rework Soraka 's where, as Meddler mentioned, despite having this potentially awesome identity, it was implemented in a way didn't do much good for gameplay. Just as Soraka's healing was gated improperly, so is Kassadin's mobility at the moment, at least in relation to the rest of his kit. I feel the mini-rework he got a few months back was done to quickly get him out of his state where he could only be banned at a ridiculous 90+% rate or be near-unplayably weak, and while the changes did a great job in making him significantly less toxic, they didn't entirely address all of the issues he had (at least not the issues we know of now). Ideally, Kass's changes could give him the coolest mobility in the game and play up his hit-and-run disruptor theme even further, but would also give him a fully functional gate to his abilities that would prevent abuse.

Going back to champions with terrible identities, I'd vouch more for Shaco and Teemo. Everybody jokes about how irritating they are, but that's literally how they're designed to be: annoying enemies is a core part of their identity, and the question remains as to how that identity can be preserved without degenerating into toxic play, which is the main issue right now. Is trolling your enemies even something you'd want in a game where positive interaction is crucial? If it's something that's going to stay, how does one make a champion annoy and even frustrate their enemies, but still promote fun play for everyone involved? Is the fun even worth the frustration created by such an identity?

darkdill1 votes

I argue Ashe could qualify for this. She's supposed to be a kiting ADC, but is eclipsed in that by Kalista, and even before Kalista's release her Q slow was simply not up to the task.

Her gameplay simply does not meet up to her identity, and I feel it needs updating.

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