A Close, Math-Powered Look at Tahm Kench's Kit

Goosetard··29 votes·3,606 views

This post is about the numbers in Kench's kit. In this post I will try to show that a lot of these numbers are pretty absurd.

Let's start with E: In passive form, his grey skin heals back 20/26/32/38/44% of damage taken. That's means, barring grevious wounds, Kench essentially reduces damage by the same percentages. That's already what Armor and MR do:

[1] Physical Dmg Taken= Physical Dmg Dealt x (100/(100+Armor)) This works the same for magic damage. But with Kench's rank 1 E factored in, you get this:

[2] Physical Dmg Taken = 0.8*Physical Dmg Dealt x (100/(100+Armor)) If you rewrite 0.8 as 1/1.25 and move it inside the fraction, you get:

[3] Physical Dmg Taken = Physical Dmg Dealt x (100/(1.25 x (100+Armor))) If we distribute the 1.25 and separate some numbers, we get:

[4] Physical Dmg Taken = Physical Dmg Dealt x (100/(100 + Armor + 25 + 0.25 x Armor))

If you compare equation [4] to equation [1], you can see that, by taking one rank in E, Kench has 125% total armor/mr and an additional 25 flat armor/mr on top of that. What the living fuck. It scales with rank too: Rank 2: 135% + 35 flat Rank 3: 147% + 47 Rank 4: 161% + 61 Rank 5: 178% + 78 Yep. Rank 5 E gives Kench 178% total armor/mr and an additional 78 armor/mr on top of that. "But Goose," you say. "Goose that's only if he gets to heal! It's not that overbearing, really." You have a decent point. It's only this bad in skirmishes instead of all-ins. And it's more favorable to champions with lifesteal to be able to do the damage instead of having it reduced by actual armor. But in an all-in, no matter what rank of E Kench has, he can just activate the ability, and get all of his hp back instantly as Grey Health. Guess what that means: Active, all ranks: 200% armor/mr with an additional 100 flat armor/mr. Awesome. Granted at this point you can back up and wait 6 seconds for his health to decay, but if you back off it isn't really an all-in, now, is it?

Let's continue on to W: This one is pretty simple. W does 20/23/26/29/32% MAX HP damage against enemy champions. This means that building health doesn't reduce the damage of Kench's W at all. You can go ahead and build MR, but items like item 3211 and its derivatives aren't as helpful as they are against other sources of magic damage. I don't really need to go off about % Max HP scaling damage here, many other people have done that in other threads. It's also worth pointing out that, should Kench decide to eat minions and spit them out, the damage schedule is: 100/150/200/250/300 + 60%AP. That's quite high for a magic-damage projectile. In fact, it's the highest rank 1 base damage on a non-ult, single-hit, non-charging magic damage projectile in the game. (The only things higher have multiple damage sources or amplifications: Anivia Q both hits, Ekko Q both hits, landing every one of Heimerdinger rockets, Maokai sapling impact and explosion, and a fully charged Janna whirlwind.) It has the same base damage at level 1 as a max-range nidalee spear. Oh and it's the only non-ultimate suppression in the game. Only way out early is item 3140 but you'll still take damage.

Let's talk about Q: At early ranks, Q has decent base damage, but isn't nearly as much of an outlier as his other abilities. A 1.5 second stun on targets with full stacks, however, is pretty good for a rank 1 ability. The only other non-ultimate stuns that can get you a better duration with one ability are Elise by .1 seconds and this guy at long range Xerath. The stun is equaled by rank 1 stuns from Veigar Viktor oldPoppy Vayne Syndra (honorable mention for Brand combo with a whole 2 second duration). At high ranks the stun is outclassed by other stuns whose duration scale with ability rank, but here's where Q starts to shine as a slow. At rank 5, Q slows for a whopping 70% for two seconds. There is exactly one are two non-ultimate slows in the game with equal or greater duration, no decay, and a higher slow %. Can you guess what it is they are? Nasus and Zilean (thanks to RougeWill for pointing out Zil).

And his R: Map mobility isn't relevant to numbers. What is relevant is that ranks in ult give all auto attacks and all abilities an additional 20 + 4/6/8% bonus HP magic damage. Let's break this down. At rank 6, assuming Kench hasn't bought ANY bonus HP, he gets +20 magic damage on autos. That's like two free item 1036 , but magic damage instead of physical damage. For every 100HP, he gets an additional 4 damage on his autos. That means every 250 HP he builds feels like he has an additional (magic damage) item 1036so for every item 1028 item 1028 he buys, he gets more than a item 1036. So when he comes back to lane with a item 3751 on first back, once he hits 6 he's got a item 1036+ worth of extra damage on his autos. At rank 3 of his ultimate, it's about a free item 1037, instead. Keep in mind this extra damage applies to his abilities, as well.

Odds n Ends, Summary Don't forget this guy has 175 attack range (used to be 200 but praise the sun it's less now). To summarize: Q: One of the better stuns for a low rank and better slows for a high rank W: Very high %Max HP scaling (highest in game for any ability) and only non-ultimate suppression in the game OR strong early game ranged harass OR hourglass/zhonya/speedboost all-in-one for an ally E: Essentially tons of free armor and mr. R: Allows your auto attacks and already high-base-damage Q and W to scale with health. (ok it's not QUITE as good as a zhonya because it doesn't stop DOTs and stuff... but it DOES stop delayed AOE.)

This combination of innate tankiness, damage scaling with both Kench's and the enemy's defensive stats, and impressive utility make Tahm Kench an outrageously overloaded pick in toplane or as a support. I hope that, by illustrating just how inflated his numbers actually are, I can draw the attention both of Riot and of the community and facilitate a constructive discussion.

Happy banning.

P.S. I love when people pay as much attention to detail as I do and fact/math check me. If you find an error, I'll happily correct it with an edit and throw your name in there for credit.

39 Comments

wop13 votes

I am not saying you are wrong (I don't agree with your point, but your data is all there), but just posting all of a champs strengths can make anyone seem OP. I remember a post where someone made OLD Gangplank too look like the most broken champ ever released, as a way to show that pointing out a champions strengths and nothing else is not the best portrayal of a champion.

Hawkefire3 votes

Tahm Kench's weaknesses are fairly straightforward, and I honestly don't think he is paying all that much for him:

Just for giggles, lets have a look at them

Cons:

  • Earlygame mana costs are quite heavy if abilities are spammed
  • Damage is somewhat subpar and fairly unreliable before 6.
  • No dashes (no his ult does not count)
  • Relatively low mobility when trying to stick to a target (this means he is fairly easy to kite, if you have mobility that is)
  • W cooldown earlygame is quite long
  • %health is fairly common and not that hard to get
  • Takes 3 hits to stun something, or takes 2 hits and a Q to W them

Neutral:

  • Decent earlygame poke with his Q, but has a fairly high mana cost and a fair windup animation.
  • Large character model. Can block skillshots easier for allies, but it is harder to dodge those skillshots when the situation calls for it. Minion block can also be a problem, but minion block right now is downright idiotic period and should hopefully be fixed in the next couple of patches.

Pros:

  • Extremely high damage (both burst and strong dps)
  • Extremely durable due to building nothing but tank
  • Very powerful CC with both his Q and W (the slow is incredibly potent, and if he does get the stun off, which isn't too hard to do, you are really screwed over, and his W on top of that makes it pretty damn insane)
  • Incredibly powerful peeling power (essentially a free zhonyas with a small dash to boot, along with basically a free cleanse as well)
  • Potent map presence with his ult
  • Extremely resilient to poke because of his E giving him lots of regeneration
  • Extremely resilient to all-in because his E essentially gives him a second HP bar

Edit: Added some stuff that I missed, and added a couple clarifications

Please Auto Them1 votes

{quoted}

Tahm Kench's weaknesses are fairly straightforward, and I honestly don't think he is paying all that much for him:

Just for giggles, lets have a look at them

Cons:

  • Earlygame mana costs are quite heavy if abilities are spammed

  • Damage is somewhat subpar and fairly unreliable before 6.

  • No dashes (no his ult does not count)

  • Relatively low mobility when trying to stick to a target

Neutral:

  • Decent earlygame poke with his Q

Pros:

  • Extremely high damage (both burst and strong dps)
  • Extremely durable due to building nothing but tank
  • Very powerful CC with both his Q and W (the slow is incredibly potent, and if he does get the stun off, which isn't too hard to do, you are really screwed over, and his W on top of that makes it pretty damn insane)
  • Incredibly powerful peeling power (essentially a free zhonyas with a small dash to boot, along with basically a free cleanse as well)
  • Potent map presence with his ult
  • Extremely resilient to poke because of his E giving him lots of regeneration
  • Extremely resilient to all-in because his E essentially gives him a second HP bar

You forgot

extremely predictable Kit No escape No mobility Requires you to hit a target 3 times with either auto attacks or spells before using his w on an enemy Extremely large character model means you are going to be getting creep blocked all day now His Q stuns himself for .8 seconds W can be easily used on the wrong target by accident W has a giant cooldown early game completely Item dependent easily countered by a multitude of champions early game Cannot do anything effectively in a 5v5 late game team fight All of his damage is single target Health scaling items and damage and runes are generally late or mid game only Skill shot is about as hard to hit as a blitz crank q easily kited easily knocked back easily focused several items counter him specifically in bot lane any poke champ will widdle him down In jungle he has terrible slow clear times his passive actually doesn't have an effect, all it does is apply a debuff that interacts with spells, the debuff itself doesn't actually do anything and it could have been just attached to his other spells as a tooltip

Anyone complaining that he is op is either a low elo player, someone who doesn't play the champs they think are op to find out their weaknesses. tahm kench is a specific niche pick for playing against assassins and all in single target champions like rengar or ww, playing him jungle is wrong and palying him top only works when you have the right tools on other characters on your team. He is a tank with no engage tools, not ability to team fight, and no ability to assasinate champions, all of his mechanics take time and precision to pull off, a simple dash or a cc can stop him from killing you. The fact that he can save allies and keep them inside for 6 seconds is the only thing that makes him slightly op, you just have to play around it, its no different than playing against a soraka.

Source: I am a diamond player who has played about 70 games on tahm kench in ranked.

wop1 votes

I'm no diamond, but Tahm jungle is not "wrong" imo. His clear is alright if you use his spells efficiently, and his ganks are not the best, but they're not horrible, especially if your lanes have CC.

And while I do not think he is OP, you are kind of overstating a few of his weaknesses.

He can do things efficiently enough in late game teamfights (he kind of provides a low cd zhonya's for anyone on his team if he uses it well, along with a pretty good slow)

also, saying a poke champ will whittle him down is not technically a weakness, as that's what poke champs do, AND he has a pretty nice amount of regen.

but yeh, I don't think he's OP, but he's nowhere near as weak as you make him out to be.

Please Auto Them1 votes

[{quoted}](name=NA Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=e7BbmvBb,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-02T18:44:19.758+0000)

I'm no diamond, but Tahm jungle is not "wrong" imo. His clear is alright if you use his spells efficiently, and his ganks are not the best, but they're not horrible, especially if your lanes have CC.

And while I do not think he is OP, you are kind of overstating a few of his weaknesses.

He can do things efficiently enough in late game teamfights (he kind of provides a low cd zhonya's for anyone on his team if he uses it well, along with a pretty good slow)

also, saying a poke champ will whittle him down is not technically a weakness, as that's what poke champs do, AND he has a pretty nice amount of regen.

but yeh, I don't think he's OP, but he's nowhere near as weak as you make him out to be.

:) see, i did exactly what the poster did, i over emphasized his weaknesses in the same way he overemphasized his strengths. :) :) :)

wop1 votes

lol I honestly was thinking about this post during an English Class today, and guessed you might have on second thought XD

Hawkefire1 votes

His kit isn't really any more predictable than any other tanks kit, such as Nautilus or Malphite.

Also saying he has no escape is not entirely true, as he does get a decent movement speed boost if he devours an ally. The correct thing to say is that he has no dashes (which he doesn't), meaning that it is harder for him to escape a fight than someone with dedicated mobility skills.

I agree accidentally eating he wrong target with his W is fairly easy to do, but I personally view that as both a skill issue (the player screwed up and clicked the wrong person) or a hitbox/prioritization issue.

Easily focused? Bullshit, he is a tank that builds nothing but tank, and his E grants him basically a second health bar. If you are focusing Tahm Kench down and there is someone else alive on there team in range then you are doing it wrong.

Easily knocked back / kited? Kited sure, and I already said that in my original post (He has trouble sticking to targets), knocked back / CCed? Well he is the bloody tank, if you are CCing him then you aren't CCing a priority target and if Tahm is a priority target during teamfights then something has probably gone very wrong for your team.

Several items counter him specifically? You mean items doing %health damage? Yes that is somewhat true, however in comparison to other tanks that have the same weakness, he is better off because of his E granting him basically a second health bar.

All his damage is single target? This is true, I had forgotten about his damage being primarily single target, however if you are top lane Tahm Kench or jungle kench you can pick up a Titanic Hydra and mitigate that weakness by a ton.

Q stuns him? Uhh....that is called a cast time and is such a common thing that I wouldn't really call it a "weakness" in this instance

Large Character model? This is both a boon and a con, in that he can block skill shots from hitting a valuable target, and of course has trouble with minion block. Personally the issue with minion block though is simply because minion block is unbelievably stupid right now.

Item dependent? That isn't really true, he is no more item dependent than the average tank, because he has extremely high base damage. That and tank items are generally cheaper than damage items, and thus his final build is usually a lot cheaper than a typical carries build.

I do agree that I also forgot about his cooldowns earlygame (primarily his W)

Easily countered earlygame? Ehhh...debatable, and really depends on where you are going with him. Top lane? Yes most definitely. Jungle? Not really no (I suppose you could argue that heavy duelists/counter junglers such as Shyvanna would "counter" him but personally I chalk that down to being a skill matchup). Support? Not as easily countered down there as he is top lane (depending on who his ADC is, which can sometimes mitigate some of his counters down there).

Health scaling is midgame/lategame only? Uhhhh....not really no. Assuming you performed decently during the very earlygame, you should at the very least have a health item by level 6. Health isn't that expensive to get, and there are a lot of options for it. I do agree pre 6 kench is weak, but once he hits 6 it is a completely different ball game.

Cannot do anything effectively in a 5v5 teamfight? WHAT?! BULLSHIT! Tahm Kench has some of the best peel in the game (you know that ADC you guys just caught out of position, or just stunned? NOPE he oughta there), and very good CC (granted his stun takes 3 wacks to get off, but his Q still slows the target by a fairly large amount for a good amount of time), and strong damage output.

Also Edited my original post to include the things I missed.

delonix1 votes

I think you should also include in neutral that his abilities all have trade-offs. Q can be used to add a stack and slow, but then you don't get a stun. W can eat an enemy to reposition them and do a bunch of damage, but then you don't have it to save your teammate (it can also be used as an additional skillshot damage ability that adds a stack, but then you can't devour friend or foe until the cd is up). E is great for healing you, but only if you don't activate it to get the extra health (you don't even generate grey health until the cd is back up). R has less of a trade-off, and no trade-off on the passive, but you can either use it to get somewhere faster or you can save it and try to get a teammate to where they need to go later.

On the plus side, the trade-offs mean that he can use his abilities in multiple ways. Not many champions have to consider whether they want to use their abilities on allies or enemies in the middle of a fight. This flexibility means that if Tahm doesn't need to save an ally any time soon, he can use his W for damage on an enemy. If he doesn't need to activate E to save himself, E will heal him later.

alfavhunter6 votes

Tahm weaknesses

Early game Kiting Blocked by tanks CC

The one thing they can do to make tahm balanced

Give his stacks a similar treatment of the silver bolt treatment, he can't have more than 3 stacks out at a time

Example

He has 3 stacks on the enemy adc, he Qs and hits the tank ones, the tank now has 1 stack adc at 2 (it still decays)

boom, he's even weaker to tank blocking and kite

So many people suggest nerfing strengths, why not make the weakness more profound?

A Miss Fortune1 votes

I don't think this will solve his issue. My main issue with Tahm is him being able to build 6 tank items and still blow people up because of his ult passive. His ult passive may not seem like much until you do the math.

Taking in consideration him being level 18 and using the strongest Tahm build there is. (Sightstone > Face > Deadmans > Locket > Warmogs) Tahm will have I believe around an extra 400 magic damage on his abilities with his ult passive.

Now combining that ult passive with just his Q, Tahm will do 660 damage each time he uses it. This doesn't seem like much, but this with a 6 tank item support build. I don't know many supports who can do this with one ability with a full tank build. You could argue that Annie and Brand might be able to with their ults, but this is just Tahm's Q on a 6 second cooldown. (With this build I think It's 4 seconds though).

RogueWill5 votes

You forgot Zilean Slow duration in actually 2.5 sec... and 99% at max range, is 70% by rank 3.

Goosetard1 votes

{quoted}

You forgot Zilean Slow duration in actually 2.5 sec... and 99% at max range, is 70% by rank 3.

Completely true! Edited. Thanks.

The Bearded Bard5 votes

Fun fact: Contrary to the Boards' opinion, Tahm was pretty balanced on release. Riot then proceeded to buff him steadily over the course of the next few patches because Boards wouldn't stop bitching about how weak he was.

ChaoticPinecone4 votes

pretty good analysis, but i hesitate to use a longsword as the comparison for damage. The main reason is that AD is stronger and more expensive than on-hit magic damage, since it scales off lifesteal and crit. A better comparison would be to other items that have magic-damage on hit, like Wits End or Nashors Tooth.

Goosetard1 votes

Yeah my first thought was to see how much HP he had to build before he effectively had a magic on-hit item... the trouble is they come with other stats like attack speed, mr, cdr, etc. and breaking the cost up into each effect was less... accurate imo than using the longsword. So you're right it's really not a perfect analogy, but it's the easiest one I could think of. Since he's unlikely to build crit or lifesteal anyway, it's close to a wash.

Quantum Lotus3 votes

Well Tahm needs to be in range to be able to w someone first of all, second, he needs the passive stacks... He is not op at all. People just don't know how to counter play against him well.

His early game is HORRIBLE by the way. He does no damage.

ForgotToShoot2 votes

The problem is he is tanky enough (especially with inflated stats from E) and has a good enough slow on Q (which is already threatening from damage) to reach you. So you are forced to either be zoned off or kite away, at a 30-70% slow.

Valexfor3 votes

Have nothing to add, just that these numbers make him feel a lot stronger than he actually is. He is indeed strong and annoying, but he is getting a nerf on his devour (not the one I would like, but oh well a nerf's still a nerf) let's see how things go. I also think Tahm isn't in the right spot, bu I think you are making him seem a lot more than he is since, if not head, tahm isn't really that strong and all he can do is devour you to get some damage and then escape/recall, unless you are playing a lane bully, which Tahm is supposed to counter (and which usually doesn't scale at all late-game). Still, nice post and nice math, I like these in-depth analysis ^^ +1 for that.

Dominick Destine3 votes

That was a really great read.

Thanks OP. I hope you do the same for other, more massively overpowered characters like Riven/Yasuo/Thresh/Lee... but this was good, upvoted, much appreciated.

Betoldia Prime2 votes

Nasus isnt the only one with that heavy a slow. Darius (90% on his W i believe) Karthus (60-65% (havent played karth in a while, thats just what i remember))Janna (60-80% slow on her E) Viktor (60 at max lvl) All have their own slows that can match or beat both nasus and tahm, even if the time duration is .5 - 1.0 less But i like your math btw, its coherent and understandable, and its strue... Tahm is just op as hell. (Dont forget hes one of the meanest junglers too)

WoonStruck3 votes

{quoted}

Nasus isnt the only one with that heavy a slow. Darius (90% on his W i believe) Karthus (60-65% (havent played karth in a while, thats just what i remember))Janna (60-80% slow on her E) Viktor (60 at max lvl) All have their own slows that can match or beat both nasus and tahm, even if the time duration is .5 - 1.0 less But i like your math btw, its coherent and understandable, and its strue... Tahm is just op as hell. (Dont forget hes one of the meanest junglers too)

Tahm has longer duration or a much, much lower CD in pretty much all of those cases. You're right about zil, though. However, Zilean only has 2 abilities that can interact with enemies, and only one deals damage. Tahm could survive with a 30% max slow on his Q. Zilean would be even more worthless if they did anything to his E.

Betoldia Prime3 votes

Zilean isnt worthless... hes the savior... nobody can killean the Zilean!!! and the zilean makes sure that the killean doesnt die either ;)

ForgotToShoot1 votes

Some of those slows decay (Darius/Karthus)

Goosetard1 votes

{quoted}

Nasus isnt the only one with that heavy a slow. Darius (90% on his W i believe) Karthus (60-65% (havent played karth in a while, thats just what i remember))Janna (60-80% slow on her E) Viktor (60 at max lvl) All have their own slows that can match or beat both nasus and tahm, even if the time duration is .5 - 1.0 less But i like your math btw, its coherent and understandable, and its strue... Tahm is just op as hell. (Dont forget hes one of the meanest junglers too)

These are all good slows, Karth's being AOE AND having a resistance debuff AND lasting for like 5 seconds probably makes it one of the best slowing abilities in the game, but it does decay with time. Janna's scales with AP and the base slow % isn't as high, Darius's is melee range and lasts for one second, and Viktor's slow field lasts while you stay in it. While they all offer something that is different (and perhaps superior) to TK's slow, TK's also exceeds theirs in some way. Since this is (unabashedly) a biased thread, I chose to focus on that lol.

BattleMan692 votes

This thread is informative, however ignoring all of his weaknesses. Want to avoid getting poked? Minions are your best friend he can't touch you without going past your minion wave. And God forbid he hits you with a minion because then he's useless until he gets his w back off cooldown (which isn't short). Don't stand like an idiot and let him get stacks for free. I've seen it happen time and time again where someone tries to duel him without kiting and they pay for it, and the next thing I see is "kench is so broken" in all chat.

Sire Hippington2 votes

You forgot to mention that his Q comes down to a awfully low cd, a 1.5 sec stun on 3.6sec cd is damn massive, only topped by twisted and brand, who both have 2sec stun on the same cd.

And while he is already just from raw stats a beast as you have shown, he can save allies out of cc at any time aswell...

Kanzaki Ranko2 votes

isn't veigar's W base damage equal or higher? it use to be 120 and now it's 100 but still really high at level 1 and non ult

W3ND3LB3AR2 votes

isnt thresh's R a 2sec 90% slow?

Please Auto Them2 votes

{quoted}

This post is about the numbers in Kench's kit. In this post I will try to show that a lot of these numbers are pretty absurd.

Let's start with E: In passive form, his grey skin heals back 20/26/32/38/44% of damage taken. That's means, barring grevious wounds, Kench essentially reduces damage by the same percentages. That's already what Armor and MR do:

[1] Physical Dmg Taken= Physical Dmg Dealt x (100/(100+Armor)) This works the same for magic damage. But with Kench's rank 1 E factored in, you get this:

[2] Physical Dmg Taken = 0.8*Physical Dmg Dealt x (100/(100+Armor)) If you rewrite 0.8 as 1/1.25 and move it inside the fraction, you get:

[3] Physical Dmg Taken = Physical Dmg Dealt x (100/(1.25 x (100+Armor))) If we distribute the 1.25 and separate some numbers, we get:

[4] Physical Dmg Taken = Physical Dmg Dealt x (100/(100 + Armor + 25 + 0.25 x Armor))

If you compare equation [4] to equation [1], you can see that, by taking one rank in E, Kench has 125% total armor/mr and an additional 25 flat armor/mr on top of that. What the living fuck. It scales with rank too: Rank 2: 135% + 35 flat Rank 3: 147% + 47 Rank 4: 161% + 61 Rank 5: 178% + 78 Yep. Rank 5 E gives Kench 178% total armor/mr and an additional 78 armor/mr on top of that. "But Goose," you say. "Goose that's only if he gets to heal! It's not that overbearing, really." You have a decent point. It's only this bad in skirmishes instead of all-ins. And it's more favorable to champions with lifesteal to be able to do the damage instead of having it reduced by actual armor. But in an all-in, no matter what rank of E Kench has, he can just activate the ability, and get all of his hp back instantly as Grey Health. Guess what that means: Active, all ranks: 200% armor/mr with an additional 100 flat armor/mr. Awesome. Granted at this point you can back up and wait 6 seconds for his health to decay, but if you back off it isn't really an all-in, now, is it?

Let's continue on to W: This one is pretty simple. W does 20/23/26/29/32% MAX HP damage against enemy champions. This means that building health doesn't reduce the damage of Kench's W at all. You can go ahead and build MR, but items like item 3211 and its derivatives aren't as helpful as they are against other sources of magic damage. I don't really need to go off about % Max HP scaling damage here, many other people have done that in other threads. It's also worth pointing out that, should Kench decide to eat minions and spit them out, the damage schedule is: 100/150/200/250/300 + 60%AP. That's quite high for a magic-damage projectile. In fact, it's the highest rank 1 base damage on a non-ult, single-hit, non-charging magic damage projectile in the game. (The only things higher have multiple damage sources or amplifications: Anivia Q both hits, Ekko Q both hits, landing every one of Heimerdinger rockets, Maokai sapling impact and explosion, and a fully charged Janna whirlwind.) It has the same base damage at level 1 as a max-range nidalee spear. Oh and it's the only non-ultimate suppression in the game. Only way out early is item 3140 but you'll still take damage.

Let's talk about Q: At early ranks, Q has decent base damage, but isn't nearly as much of an outlier as his other abilities. A 1.5 second stun on targets with full stacks, however, is pretty good for a rank 1 ability. The only other non-ultimate stuns that can get you a better duration with one ability are Elise by .1 seconds and this guy at long range Xerath. The stun is equaled by rank 1 stuns from Veigar Viktor oldPoppy Vayne Syndra (honorable mention for Brand combo with a whole 2 second duration). At high ranks the stun is outclassed by other stuns whose duration scale with ability rank, but here's where Q starts to shine as a slow. At rank 5, Q slows for a whopping 70% for two seconds. There is exactly one are two non-ultimate slows in the game with equal or greater duration, no decay, and a higher slow %. Can you guess what it is they are? Nasus and Zilean (thanks to RougeWill for pointing out Zil).

And his R: Map mobility isn't relevant to numbers. What is relevant is that ranks in ult give all auto attacks and all abilities an additional 20 + 4/6/8% bonus HP magic damage. Let's break this down. At rank 6, assuming Kench hasn't bought ANY bonus HP, he gets +20 magic damage on autos. That's like two free item 1036 , but magic damage instead of physical damage. For every 100HP, he gets an additional 4 damage on his autos. That means every 250 HP he builds feels like he has an additional (magic damage) item 1036so for every item 1028 item 1028 he buys, he gets more than a item 1036. So when he comes back to lane with a item 3751 on first back, once he hits 6 he's got a item 1036+ worth of extra damage on his autos. At rank 3 of his ultimate, it's about a free item 1037, instead. Keep in mind this extra damage applies to his abilities, as well.

Odds n Ends, Summary Don't forget this guy has 175 attack range (used to be 200 but praise the sun it's less now). To summarize: Q: One of the better stuns for a low rank and better slows for a high rank W: Very high %Max HP scaling (highest in game for any ability) and only non-ultimate suppression in the game OR strong early game ranged harass OR hourglass/zhonya/speedboost all-in-one for an ally E: Essentially tons of free armor and mr. R: Allows your auto attacks and already high-base-damage Q and W to scale with health. (ok it's not QUITE as good as a zhonya because it doesn't stop DOTs and stuff... but it DOES stop delayed AOE.)

This combination of innate tankiness, damage scaling with both Kench's and the enemy's defensive stats, and impressive utility make Tahm Kench an outrageously overloaded pick in toplane or as a support. I hope that, by illustrating just how inflated his numbers actually are, I can draw the attention both of Riot and of the community and facilitate a constructive discussion.

Happy banning.

P.S. I love when people pay as much attention to detail as I do and fact/math check me. If you find an error, I'll happily correct it with an edit and throw your name in there for credit.

You got outplayed so badly that you got up and did arithmetic(not mathematics). I want to meet that kench.

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

Very good math & explanations showing why he's way overtuned even without his ally saving power or map mobility.

Nightshade171 votes

As someone who got to Mastery 4 with this guy in 5 days(I don't play too much), I can agree with all of this. Personally, I feel that if they nerfed the slow on the Q, and made his grey healh decay faster(or maybe even at a percentage rate like Sion passive?), he'd be in a better position

Oh, and reduce the percent health damage on the W. It's a bit much, considering eating an enemy counts as "single-target" and so it benefits from his R passive

FantasySniper1 votes

Do one for Lee, too.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Something you forgot to add is that Tahm can suppress monsters, which essentially allows him to ignore the Patience rules. It gives him healthier clears (monsters can't attack) and gives him bonus damage on his next clear (wait til Gromp is low, then eat and spit into wolves for bonus damage).

AL0001 votes

true counter to tahm is item 3068... he got killed while i am his stomach...

i saw this happened twice... very funny....

GrReaper961 votes

Just wondering whats the second highest % hp damage in the game? Even a full durationMalzahar W doesnt deal tht much damage (ignoring the ap scaling)

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

Mordekaiser R

25%/30%/35% (+4% per 100 AP) Magic Damage over 10 seconds, half of it initially, healing for the damage done.

Trundle R

20%/27.5%/35% (+2% per 100 AP) Magic Damage over 4 seconds, half of it initially, healing for the damage done.

I NEVER noticed that... Riot reused Mordekaiser's ult and tweaked it a little for Trundle's ult...

Mordekaiser gets a ghost, but longer duration of DoT. Trundle steals Armor and Magic Resist from the target, shorter DoT.

GrReaper961 votes

Lol. Note both of them are ultis. And most high % hp damage are DoTs.

chessman1 votes

His winrate is still average, so clearly the numbers are being offset by a variety of factors.

Goosetard1 votes

His winrate isn't average in toplane or with experienced kench players in high elo.

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