These changes will really hurt Maokai top. Not that they're undeserved. They're harsh, but he has been strong for a while.
Jg Maokai, on the other hand, has been dead for a while. This will kill jg Maokai.
When you rework him in the class update, please let him jg again.
CrazyBear19874 votesIt's funny, for a Tree,i don't think Riot wants him in the Jungle.
Keevalroy2 votesHe doesn't make flashy plays and fly across the map like their precious Lee Sin, so why would he be placed back in the playmaking role where he belongs?
They could just as easily nerf the W damage for players so he's not out-damaging carries and add bonus damage to jungle monsters to help his clear, possibly increasing the range slightly so he has more gank potential, but whatever.
50000000000000001 votesMake him be able to W to his sapling and refresh his W cooldown lmao
Keevalroy1 votesSince I can't tell if this is sarcasm, that would be way too much mobilty for someone like Mao.
50000000000000001 votesNot to worry, it was.
Melondrama1 voteshe wasn't designed to jungle, jungle maokai just sort of happened. Not saying he shouldn't be balanced with jungle in mind, just saying it's not "where he belongs"
Troll for Trump4 votes
pls
50000000000000004 votesFor those lazy:
Maokai Arcane Smash (Q) mana cost increased from 45 to 45/50/55/60/65.
Sapling Toss (E) - [removed] no longer deals 40/60/80/100/120 (+40% AP) damage on landing impact, [NOTE: Looks like it still pulls jungle camps on landing]
MisterShameless4 votesQ seems reasonable while E is a big WTF to me.
50000000000000005 votesThey both seem pretty unreasonable to me. Maokai already has obscenely high mana costs. It'd be nigh impossible to even waveclear with him early game.
Karn Bishop1 votesI would honestly argue that Q is the more damaging change here as he already has mana problems to begin with and now his main tool for csing, poking, and damage in trades will cost more, and given that Q only gets useful for trading when maxing it and this change quickly destroys him.
To me these changes seem like a straight up champion gutting until a rework like they did with old eve, something they promised they would not do again because no champion deserves to be so completely unplayable that players report you for even picking it.
edit: i almost forgot they are also massively increasing the power of lifesteal and armor pen as well, items maokai must rush to be effective, and now if he does so he loses out on the majority of that armor gold the moment someone buys a buffed armor pen item on lucian, or anyone else who can abuse the changes.
RookPusher1 votesThis, and anything that reduces his spell cast count is a double nerf since that directly affects his passive.
If this Q nerf goes live, then they should add more utility to it. Make it knockback for the full range, and increase it's range. There's an ROI there that exists before we consider it's global balance/fairness. I.e. It's barely worth casting now IMO, but I use it because it's there.
If it cuts down on my W's, then I'm going to max it last. (FYI, I'm a Maokai Support main).
BobaFlautist2 votesJg Maokai, on the other hand, has been dead for a while. This will kill jg Maokai.
Pick one.
Troll for Trump2 votes
top or adc
top mid or adc
top mid jg adc
supp jg top
top mid adc
mid support
mid support
mid support
mid support jg AD or AP
top or adc
top jg support
top jg
goes anywhere
top jg
top jg
top mid
top jg mid
mid jg
top mid
top jg
top jg
adc mid
top jg mid
top mid
top jg
top mid
top jg
top jg mid
top mid
top mid
top jg mid
mid adc AD or AP
top mid jg
top mid support
top mid support
mid support
top mid
mid adc
top jg
top jg mid
mid supp
adc supp
top jg
top jg
mid supp
top mid jg
top jg
top jg
top jg mid
top jg
top mid
top jg supp
top mid
top jg
top mid jg
top mid
top jg
top jg
mid adc
top mid
top jg
top jg
top mid supp
mid supp
mid adc
mid supp
Pick one.
I know some of these may be weird or not even considered for their role. But Riot has been pigeonholing champs into one role for ages. We need more variety, rather than less of it. I have excluded a lot of other champs from the list as well.
BobaFlautist1 votesNo, I was nitpicking your language, not saying a champion should only have one role. Let's put it this way "The king, on the other hand, has been dead for a while. This (new thing you intend to do) will kill the king!" Makes no sense, right?
Troll for Trump1 votesThe "king" wasn't dead though. It was fine last season. This season, though..
MunchCrunchLunch1 votesMackay does too much damage. Sapling toss having I believe the highest base damage on a basic skill is too much
Troll for Trump1 votesHe doesn't use his E as a laning tool though.
His E is a really awkward part of his kit. While he can do a jack-in-the-box on whatever camp he first does, his E doesn't make sense with the rest of his kit.
cocacolalips1 voteswhy? the sapling is part of his character and emotes, it's core to his identity
gameplay wise, usual combo is E-W-Q or R-E-W-Q-R, and you can also use the sapling solely to scout, poke, zone etc..
the sapling is in fact the only thing interesting about maokai, he would be a point and click CC bot like Reksai without it.
Troll for Trump1 votesMaokai's an old champ. They haven't touched his kit in ages, like Nocturne's. It's part of his core, but it's a weird part. It's pretty outdated for modern standards. His entire kit is outdated, honestly, which is why he's getting the rework.
cocacolalips1 votes?
he isn't getting any rework.
he is getting nerfed because he is pick/ban in competitive play.
and he is not more outdated than 75% of the champion pool, not sure what modern standards you speak of.
Troll for Trump1 votesHe's getting a rework in the diver update. He isn't pick/ban in competitive.
He's binary, and that's his strength and weakness. His kit is outdated, but not bad.
cocacolalips1 votesrofl, he has like 80% pick ban in current spring lcs, do you even watch the games
itt: http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/picksandbans.php?season=S7&split=Spring ; sorted by presence, 84%
Angry Monster1 votesWhen was the last time a sapling landed on someone? Plus when they move they are one of the easiest things in the world to dodge or blow up in minions.
cocacolalips2 votesyour combo is E-W-Q, the target is rooted as the sapling hits the ground, you would have to be pretty bad to miss
50000000000000001 votesOh, is that nerf part of the larger update? I didn't think they were on it yet.
Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votesTake into account the PBE Is only a testing ground. For all we know this could just be a test to see how this could effect him when they want to rework him.
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the E Removal reverted, and then a bigger Ultimate CD put in.
Then in the MYVU we might see the E damage removed again and replaced.
Troll for Trump1 votesI wouldn't be surprised if we saw the E Removal reverted, and then a bigger Ultimate CD put in.
Then in the MYVU we might see the E damage removed again and replaced.
Ik it's always been a part of his kit, but his E never felt cohesive. I hope it's removed in the rework. Or maybe his ult becomes some weird thing where he summons a bunch of saplings and pulls a Nature's Prophet ( see dota)
Gnart Even Close1 votesIn all fairness, the E change is intended to reduce his free poke in lane. It's hard to deal with a Maokai who uses his E for damage, even though he runs out of mana quickly. It's also part of the reason he does so much damage for a tank. I think it's good that they're cutting out some of his poke and damage. And it's only really affecting his first camp for the jungle, to my understanding. You can just get a better leash and the problem mostly goes away.
More importantly, Maokai didn't lose any utility. He still has the sapling wards, which is pretty massive when used properly.
Troll for Trump1 votesIf his E were that important, he wouldn't be maxing it last (Ap Maokai excluded).
His Q and W were the most important part of his dmg.
It didn't lose utility, but it's still forcing jg maokai out of existance. That cannot be refuted.
RookPusher1 votesIt's the Q that's problematic.
Troll for Trump1 votesYep. It's the most important part for him in jg and lane
LongHair Fox1 votesThing is: it is really hard to balance for multiple roles. He needs a nerf in top lane but hitting top without hitting jungle is hard without giving him things like "does x% extra damage to monsters". While they could do that it has multiple times failed so they likely want to stay away from it. Not to mention that jgl maokai is played by very few people.
For lane maokai the nerf is something but I doubt it will drop him more than 2% point in winrate. There are ways to get around the nerf and e for poke was only used when you were anyway winning.
Troll for Trump1 votesNo one used the E for poke, even when winning. It was maxed last. It's maokai's only way to farm from afar, and it hurts significantly. Obviously, the E nerf hurts jgl hard. Jg maokai has been getting crowded out, and Riot hasn't done much about it. This happens with a ton of other champs and picks.
It's a huge nerf, not a lovetap. %extra dmg to monsters or %reduced to minions could work
LongHair Fox1 votesIt depends on mana situation and matchup for e poke, as an example against garen I have often used e to stop his passive when I am winning lane. For farming you rarely want both explosions on your e as it pushes the wave and you hardly ever get cs from both parts of it. Sure it might become slightly harder to do but in the end it will not have a huge effect. Both extra damage to monsters and reduced damage to minions has failed on a huge number of champions which is why it is steadily getting removed from kits (shyvanna and rumble being obvious examples).
In the end riot will always try to keep a champions balanced for as many roles as possible without creating gimmicks or stuff people will feel bad about. This means that champions are hard to balance for multiple roles since one role is often worse then the other.
