Spellvamp

stealthfox94·Feb 9, 2016·2 votes·352 views

Anyone else think that when Riot re-works Vlad so that he's not a complete abomination that they should make new spellvamp more viable and make new spellvamp items?

9 Comments

stealthfox94Feb 9, 20161 votes

pmub

SnugglePuggle94Feb 9, 20161 votes

I think so! I would love new SV items!

WoonStruckFeb 9, 20161 votes

The only champs that will make good use of SV are tanky burst/DPS champs. Anyone else will see more use out of tanky items, so they don't blow up when they get hit, or full damage, so they can do more damage before they get taken down...or take the opponent down before they have a chance.

Vlad is not the sole issue with spellvamp. Its the concept of Riot's balance on it. The first step would be changing AoE, DoT, and magic on-hit effects' interactions with it. DoT and AoE's numbers are weak enough to make it essentially non-viable on anyone that isn't semi-tanky single-target DPS. Open up the option to DoT and AoE and suddenly its a much more usable stat...without breaking it on single target DPS champs. Changing all magic damage to interact with it, removing AD interactions (since Death's Dance exists now), and changing those restrictions for DoT/AoE suddenly gives mages an option similar to ADCs. Tanky utility mages can now exist. Top lane AP is suddenly more viable. AP junglers are possible without having insane shields/sustain.

67chromeFeb 9, 20161 votes

The first step would be changing AoE, DoT, and magic on-hit effects' interactions with it. DoT and AoE's numbers are weak enough to make it essentially non-viable on anyone that isn't semi-tanky single-target DPS.

Akali Mordekaiser Vladimir Jax Kennen Katarina Zac Rumble Nunu are the current crop of champions that consider itemizing for spell vamp (or at least have in past metas): and outside of Akali and Jax, they're pretty heavy into the AoE.

Manaless, or at least access to skills that cost 0 mana and apply spell-vamp, is the key factor to feeling good about spell vamp given this crowd. It has nothing to do with AoE/DoTs vs. single target (I mean come on: Morde's entire kit is DoTs and AoE).

I'd say it has everything to do with exchanging mana sustain for health sustain as being a loosing proposition on champions that are very ability-reliant, as running OoM is often just as bad (if not worse) than running low on HP.

Also: AoE skills usually don't have significantly lower numbers than single-target ones, they tend to just have slightly longer cooldowns. Or occasionally more difficult best-case scenario's, as is the case with 's kit (which certainly exceeds the level 18 EHP of everyone givin max duration/max bounces on his 3 damaging skills).

It's also worth considering that proper use of AoE skills will strike at least 3 targets in-lane or vs. enemies in a team-fight, where the lessened spell-vamp isn't going to be noticed vs. a single-target skill: you'll ultimatly restore the same amount of HP. Especially seeing as minions essentially take true damage from everything and all champions start with at least 30 MR prior to runes/masteries/items coming into play: so AoE skills that do 20% less damage than single-target ones will often recover a similar level of health if not more.

Due to how much health a minion wave actually has (minimum of 2235 and it just keeps getting higher the longer a game goes on): you'd also give a personal Soraka to essentially anyone who purchased spell vamp without the AoE reductions. I mean, literally. with 15% SV from item 3145 and masteries, receiving no reduction on spell vamp means you'd need to do 200 damage per-minion to all 6 minions to restore 180 HP, the same amount Soraka's rank 3 heal restores in lane with no AP. On Zigg's rank 3 Bouncing Bomb: you'd get there with 54 AP, which is a item 1026 and 14 AP from Quints.

Post-lane into late-game, you'd be looking at the capacity to ramp up from 5% HP to 100% HP within 0.5 seconds after a full combo, effectively doubling the life-bar of a wide range of AP champions with minimal effort.

TLDR: Making spell-vamp work at 100% on AoE abilities would be game breaking. It would not be good for balance.

WoonStruckFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

are the current crop of champions that consider itemizing for spell vamp (or at least have in past metas): and outside of Akali and Jax, they're pretty heavy into the AoE.

Manaless, or at least access to skills that cost 0 mana and apply spell-vamp, is the key factor to feeling good about spell vamp given this crowd. It has nothing to do with AoE/DoTs vs. single target (I mean come on: Morde's entire kit is DoTs and AoE).

I'd say it has everything to do with exchanging mana sustain for health sustain as being a loosing proposition on champions that are very ability-reliant, as running OoM is often just as bad (if not worse) than running low on HP.

Also: AoE skills usually don't have significantly lower numbers than single-target ones, they tend to just have slightly longer cooldowns. Or occasionally more difficult best-case scenario's, as is the case with 's kit (which certainly exceeds the level 18 EHP of everyone givin max duration/max bounces on his 3 damaging skills).

It's also worth considering that proper use of AoE skills will strike at least 3 targets in-lane or vs. enemies in a team-fight, where the lessened spell-vamp isn't going to be noticed vs. a single-target skill: you'll ultimatly restore the same amount of HP. Especially seeing as minions essentially take true damage from everything and all champions start with at least 30 MR prior to runes/masteries/items coming into play: so AoE skills that do 20% less damage than single-target ones will often recover a similar level of health if not more.

Due to how much health a minion wave actually has (minimum of 2235 and it just keeps getting higher the longer a game goes on): you'd also give a personal Soraka to essentially anyone who purchased spell vamp without the AoE reductions. I mean, literally. with 15% SV from and masteries, receiving no reduction on spell vamp means you'd need to do 200 damage per-minion to all 6 minions to restore 180 HP, the same amount Soraka's rank 3 heal restores in lane with no AP. On Zigg's rank 3 Bouncing Bomb: you'd get there with 54 AP, which is a and 14 AP from Quints.

Post-lane into late-game, you'd be looking at the capacity to ramp up from 5% HP to 100% HP within 0.5 seconds after a full combo, effectively doubling the life-bar of a wide range of AP champions with minimal effort.

TLDR: Making spell-vamp work at 100% on AoE abilities would be game breaking. It would not be good for balance.

I said change the restrictions, not remove. 35% on DoT/AoE is weak enough that it will not be felt on the large majority of champions. That was my point. A "fair" spellvamp value would go up to 60% for AoE/DoT at most, which is still probably too high.

A whole lot of bloated text assuming best case scenarios though. Good job. By the way, you're forgetting what each of those champions got out of the items that provided those stats.

Anyway, all of the champions you listed have some form of significant single target skills, outside of morde and Zac.

Akali naturally has single target damage and spellvamp.

Mord needs sustain so he doesn't kill himself, AoE or not. WotA/gunblade is the best option because in-combat HP regen is so bad.

Vlad needs sustain to keep him in lane pre-9, and often until 11+ when he holds a significant threat, depending on match-up. Vlad's Q is what makes use of the spellvamp effectively.

Jax made use of Gunblade's offensive stats, mostly. The sustain was a bonus. He didn't itemize for spellvamp, it just happened to be there.

Kennen's Q is single target. This, along with the need for CDR, is what made it a good buy.

Kat got gunblade mostly for the offensive stats.

Zac made use of an over-tuned jungle item that even laners were spamming. Pretty self-explanatory.

Rumble made good use of it through his E, in combination with the mitigation provided by his W. (See Riven HP5 nerfs)

Nunu is primarily single target, and didn't make great use of spellvamp. He was using an over-tuned jungle item, like Zac.

Low CDs are the prime factor for Spellvamp. It used to be a common buy on brand, due to his Q (low CD) and E. Notice Nunu E. Notice Rumble CDs. Notice Kennen CDs. Notice Jax CDs. Notice Kat Resets, notice Vlad CDs, notice Akali CDs.

There are very few champions that would specifically itemize for spellvamp due to its current restrictions, whether you think so or not.

There's also the fact that you need high damage to use spellvamp effectively, but you also need to have high defensive stats, which is contradictory. The meta keeps leaning more and more towards damage, making Spellvamp less and less effective on most champions, regardless of how well they may or may not make good use of it due to the threat of being bursted.

67chromeFeb 9, 20161 votes

A whole lot of bloated text assuming best case scenarios though. Good job. By the way, you're forgetting what each of those champions got out of the items that provided those stats.

54 AP @level 6 and hitting 6 minions is a best case scenario? What game are you playing?

Blasting wand and Revolver both give 40 AP either way, so don't see what's missing with the items. Minions aren't wearing any items.

The rest of your post mostly goes on to point out champions have a single-target skill. Which they do, because most champions in the game has a single-target nuke, an AoE/wave-clear skill, some 1-point wonder flavor skill, and then an ultimate that usually emphasizes what archetype they belong to.

Simply having a single-target skill doesn't mean that's what you're relying on for spell-vamp, where your response seems to indicate champions would only consider using a single-target skill to make use of spell vamp.

Even with 33% reductions, a 100 damage AoE skill hitting 6 minions will restore the same amount of HP as a 260 damage single-target skill used against 1 enemy champion.

The AoE reductions isn't holding spell vamp back, it's preventing it from being game-breaking. Applying an on-hit effect 1+ times is better than applying it 1 time. And with minions, jungle-camps, and team-fights being things: proper use of an AoE skills means you probably hit 3 targets.

Low CDs are the prime factor for Spellvamp. It used to be a common buy on brand, due to his Q (low CD) and E.

Brand's Q is 6 seconds and his E is 8 seconds. QWE skills tend to range from 5 seconds to 15 seconds on average.

A 6 second CD on Brand doesn't make him a low CD champion with sustained damage any more than Tryndamere's auto-attacks make him a burst caster.

Having a kit geared more towards sustained DPS over burst is going to favor spell-vamp, but pretending Brand is one of those champions casts a pretty wide net that includes ~95% of the roster.

There's also the fact that you need high damage to use spellvamp effectively, but you also need to have high defensive stats, which is contradictory.

You don't need high defenses for spell vamp to be effective any more than you need high defenses for life steal to be effective, and in both cases it's more specifically armor and MR that boost their effectiveness over defense in general; as neither interacts strongly with HP or HP/5.

WoonStruckFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

54 AP @level 6 and hitting 6 minions is a best case scenario? What game are you playing?

Blasting wand and Revolver both give 40 AP either way, so don't see what's missing with the items. Minions aren't wearing any items.

The rest of your post mostly goes on to point out champions have a single-target skill. Which they do, because most champions in the game has a single-target nuke, an AoE/wave-clear skill, some 1-point wonder flavor skill, and then an ultimate that usually emphasizes what archetype they belong to.

Simply having a single-target skill doesn't mean that's what you're relying on for spell-vamp, where your response seems to indicate champions would only consider using a single-target skill to make use of spell vamp.

Even with 33% reductions, a 100 damage AoE skill hitting 6 minions will restore the same amount of HP as a 260 damage single-target skill used against 1 enemy champion.

The AoE reductions isn't holding spell vamp back, it's preventing it from being game-breaking. Applying an on-hit effect 1+ times is better than applying it 1 time. And with minions, jungle-camps, and team-fights being things: proper use of an AoE skills means you probably hit 3 targets.

Brand's Q is 6 seconds and his E is 8 seconds. QWE skills tend to range from 5 seconds to 15 seconds on average.

A 6 second CD on Brand doesn't make him a low CD champion with sustained damage any more than Tryndamere's auto-attacks make him a burst caster.

Having a kit geared more towards sustained DPS over burst is going to favor spell-vamp, but pretending Brand is one of those champions casts a pretty wide net that includes ~95% of the roster.

You don't need high defenses for spell vamp to be effective any more than you need high defenses for life steal to be effective, and in both cases it's more specifically armor and MR that boost their effectiveness over defense in general; as neither interacts strongly with HP or HP/5.

All you keep talking about is hitting 6 minions. In-lane sustain would not be the issue with spellvamp, otherwise they could specifically make it less useful against minions. So yes, that is best case scenarios, because most likely it will not be happening in fights.

AoE reductions DO need restrictions, but not quite as harsh as what's in place right now, as that prevents it from being used on many champs.

Brand usually itemizes some CDR, for starters, and secondly, I said it USED to be a common buy. Back when spellvamp was more usable because the game wasn't so damage-oriented. You know, back when nearly every single mage was building RoA/Rylai's/Abyssal/Zhonya's in some combination in season 1/2. Back when AD itemization wasn't so insanely strong.

You DO need high defenses for spell vamp to be effective. The reason lifesteal works on ADCs is because they have 3 things that benefit it. AD to increase the value, attackspeed to increase how often they get it, and crit to more than double the amount they're healing, on top of getting a utility outside of healing. item 3153 item 3812 item 3146 item 3156 item 3139 item 3074 item 3072 all have some form of significant utility for various AD champions. On top of that, its much easier to still remain a significant damage threat as a tanky AD than it is to remain a damage threat as a tanky AP.

When every champion has a skill that scales from 2 second CD to 1 second, and you can reduce it all the way down to .2 second CD, then you might have an argument about spellvamp not requiring tankiness.

Part of the reason they reworked the healing on gunblade and WotA is because Riot agreed that you needed too many items to make spellvamp effective. You needed CD, you needed tankiness, you needed damage, if you have mana, you need mana regen or maximum mana. And on top of that you needed magic pen/magic resist reduction in order to even hope to heal a respectable amount. That's the whole reason they made it heal off pre-mitigation damage.

So I'll restate. You do need to be semi-tanky to make real use of spell-vamp, otherwise you're just getting bursted down before you can utilize it well and not doing much damage in the process because you itemized sustain as opposed to tankiness/damage/utility.

A Basic IslandFeb 9, 20161 votes

i think people need to stop wishing for spell vamp to be on different items and just realize that vlad and morde are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to SV becoming broken

Vlad is in no way, shape, or form holding spellvamp back, not even close.

For spell vamp to be put on an item where it could fit into most builds would be horrible for the game without a massive overhaul of a bunch of ap mages

67chromeFeb 9, 20161 votes

Anyone else think that when Riot re-works Vlad so that he's not a complete abomination that they should make new spellvamp more viable and make new spellvamp items?

I mostly enjoy the fact spell-vamp isn't really a thing in LoL.

Especially in regards to making contrast between AD and AP paths, physical and magical orientated champions.

On the AD side you have item 1053 life steal so if you're squish and need a helping hand, you can sustain while you're doing sustained damage with those AA's. On the AP side you have item 3157 Zhonya's, so if you're squish and need a helping hand, you can burst and then get a burst of survival while you're burst is cooling down, so you can live to burst some more.

Granted: not every AD does sustained damage and not every AP is truely bursty, but separating the paths does make each build direction seem more like a rich red, blue, or green rather than every build being a mess of "meh" brown that does exactly the same thing as everyone else's build. Specifically alienating certain stats from different build-paths also forces distinct weaknesses onto every build in exchange for their strengths, so there's always a trade-off for you, your team, and your opponents to play around that keeps thing's interesting rather than muddled brown. Allowing for such diversification also softens the impact of gold/itemization on different champions when push comes to shove: where if every build fundamentally ended up the same a 400 gold difference in itemization would generally have a more noticeable impact, and CS simulator really isn't the most exciting game to play.