" Why do we need a meta why can't everything be viable? "

stealthfox94··45 votes·4,175 views

Glad to know I'm not the only one who has thought this before.

72 Comments

Deep Terror Nami30 votes

When you have so many options, and so many are unique in one way or the other, something being better than others is inevitable and unavoidable. It's simply not possible to balance two different and unique abilities, let alone several hundred which can be mix and matched to make billions of possible combinations. The best that can be done is get them close, and basically take turns letting one be better than the other.

Your best option for finding balance is by playing a game that gives you no options (like Chess).

Cloud2733 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valkyrie Witch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ElWRg7pU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-19T23:11:25.072+0000)

When you have so many options, and so many are unique in one way or the other, something being better than others is inevitable and unavoidable. It's simply not possible to balance two different and unique abilities, let alone several hundred which can be mix and matched to make billions of possible combinations. The best that can be done is get them close, and basically take turns letting one be better than the other.

Your best option for finding balance is by playing a game that gives you no options (like Chess).

So the game is never truly balanced. It's basically just who does Riot want to see in LCS, and who do they not want to be in LCS.

Deep Terror Nami24 votes

You really got that out of what I said? Salty much?

Cloud2734 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valkyrie Witch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ElWRg7pU,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-19T23:18:42.644+0000)

You really got that out of what I said? Salty much?

Rude much? I'm not disagreeing with you. This is what I believe. Riot knows it's impossible for this game to be 100% balanced, so they pick their favorite champs and nerf anyone who causes problems for them. It's a biased system, but it's impossible to balance a game like this without a little bit of bias.

Occams Raiser4 votes

They also want to sell skins. A champ with no popularity will get played less and sell less merch. A champs popularity is not solely based on playability but he does have to have a presence in the community. They are trying to balance the books not gameplay.

TotalJerk4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ElWRg7pU,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-04-20T08:01:41.071+0000)

They also want to sell skins. A champ with no popularity will get played less and sell less merch. A champs popularity is not solely based on playability but he does have to have a presence in the community. They are trying to balance the books not gameplay.

Is that why they repeatedly nerfed Sona right before dropping an ultimate skin?

Occams Raiser2 votes

You mean the beautiful one with the big ass titties that most of the LOL fan art online is based on? Yeah that's why. The only way people weren't going to buy such as bad ass skin for such a nice champ is if they nerfed her cup size.

Jungle Lux God3 votes

Chess gives you a near infinite amount of options between opening, midgame, and lategame play. There are hundreds of books and other resources that just talk about openings, yet none of them talk about every opening the game has to offer.

I personally compare different aspects of League to Chess: Chess openings are like League's champion select, where both teams reveal their strategies from their pick choices, Chess midgames are like League's laning phases, where both teams are aiming to get some kind of lead on their opponents to break open the game, and Chess lategames are like the rest of a League match, where both teams have already taken objectives of their opponents and are looking to close out the game, and the game can close out at any time by this point.

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

...I don't think we're on the same page in the comparison I was trying to make. In chess, everyone has the exact same options no matter what. You obviously get to make your own moves, but you always start with the same pieces as the opponent in the same place every game. In my comparison, if Chess was like League, you'd get to start with the pieces you want; all Queens, half Rooks half Pawns, and so on.

Ronnie Law2 votes

And yet, even chess has a metagame. Perhaps you need to look up the term metagame.

The terms of the engagement are not dictated by the players, but instead by the rules (terrain if you will).

There are always optimal ways and suboptimal ways to play in various environments, rulesets and situations.

The meta is an attempt to cleanly and concisely create a standard playstyle that you can drop 5 random strangers into and still have everyone aware of what they are responsible for.

So long are there winning conditions and ways to leverage mechanics into winning positions, there will always be a meta.

The good news is that the meta will always be cyclic, and that the "new" meta will always beat the old.

This is the concept of the unconventional vs. the conventional.

Deep Terror Nami2 votes

I can't argue with that.

Jungle Lux God2 votes

There's a reason why I compared Chess openings to League's champion select and not the laning phase: both teams essentially have the same exact options at this point in time that is limited by the player's experience with specific openings for Chess and specific champions for League. Choosing to play jungle Sejuani or Lee Sin in League is just like choosing to play the Ruy Lopez or Queen's Gambit in Chess: you choose how you play the game at the very beginning of the game, and each game is going to play differently with how you open the game.

I compared League's laning phase with Chess's midgame because in both, you have your entire strategy planned out, whether it is a strategy based on picks and bans or on piece manipulation, and it is up to both teams/players to play around their specific strategies. In the same way you run a teamfight comp or pick comp in League of Legends, you can play out Chess games in a variety of different fashions.

I compared League's mid-late game to Chess' endgame because at this point, both teams have traded some kind of resources, whether it is objectives and kills in League of Legends or pieces and positioning in Chess, and it is up to both players/teams to determine the strengths of whichever team is winning and assess the compensation that the losing team has, and use those strengths and weaknesses to try and force the win. Even the game times are relatively similar.

There are obvious differences of course, as League of Legends has so many different variables between champions, items, runes, masteries, objectives, etc. while Chess has much fewer variables with the same level of strategy, and League also has a mechanical aspect to it that Chess does not have, but other than that the strategic elements are very comparable.

Delimon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valkyrie Witch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ElWRg7pU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-19T23:11:25.072+0000)

When you have so many options, and so many are unique in one way or the other, something being better than others is inevitable and unavoidable. It's simply not possible to balance two different and unique abilities, let alone several hundred which can be mix and matched to make billions of possible combinations. The best that can be done is get them close, and basically take turns letting one be better than the other.

Your best option for finding balance is by playing a game that gives you no options (like Chess).

that's not the problem

the problem is that some champions are just crap to play

Loken Stoneheart10 votes

The meta is/was tanky top, gankhappy champ jungle, burst mid, ADC support bot.

So long as the game is balanced, this is how it will be. Do you know why? Before you complain about a meta you should understand why it is the way it is.

The tanky champion goes top. This is because they don't need anyone babysitting them, and they can survive a gank in the long-lane that is top lane.

The gank happy champion goes jungle so that he can exert massive pressure in every lane and get his team ahead. Generally, he/she functions with slightly lower amounts of gold and exp than laning champions.

Midlaners tend to be both gold and level reliant. Their scaling comes from leveling their abilities and stacking their respective scaling-stat. They tend to be squishy, and on top of needing levels and gold, they go into the shortest lane of the game as a solo-lane.

ADC and support go bot lane. Supports function with very little gold, and generally less experience-- they just need their stun/heal/whatever and they're good to go. ADC goes bot because the other lanes are taken, essentially. They need much less exp than their mid-lane counterpart because they are less ability reliant than they are gold-scaling reliant. Their damage comes from autoattacks, and thus mainly gold. They, however, just like midlaners are squishy, so they decide to forgo the extra exp of a sololane and instead adopt a protective support-- after all, midlane took the only short lane.

So long as the map itself does not change, and so long as something is not so blatantly overpowered that it shifts the natural state of the map, the meta will almost always default to this state.

The meta is the way it is because of the fundamental requirements of each respective role, and the layout of the map and the lanes. I didn't touch on objective control, but its worth tossing in there really quick that ADC/Support is favored bot as opposed to top because it also gives early-game dragon control.

EDIT: Also, everything being "equally viable" is simply impossible. Riddle me this: Why should an ADC be able to solo-top? If an ADC can solotop, why would I not take an ADC top? They beat the tanky melee they're going against early game now, since they're apparently able to solo-top, and they also beat them late game (as this is how the powercurve works--- ADCs beat tanks late-game).

The map's default state is pretty well balanced and gives everybody somewhere to play their favorite champion. This is likely what you meant, but all the same it is still a meta-- Meta is simply how one describes the state of the game being played. The most optimal way to play the game. No matter how hard you try, you'll never be able to optimally put any champion anywhere you want. The best bet is to give each type of champion a place to be played, as is the state of the default-meta.

BluePolarizer1 votes

that's what I don't like about League balance. It should be balanced as team comp vs. team comp, not champ vs. champ. It is impossible to balance 100+ champs but it is relatively easy to balance the 5-6 team comps that see pro play. And for random solo queue team comps? That shouldn't matter for balance. As of now, certain team comps have always been wildly dominant, and thus it is League of _____ (+ ADCs).

If it isn't balanced according to team comp, then certain strategies will be essentially unbeatable if executed properly and thus both teams use that strategy, crowding out other strategies.

Aych Pii2 votes

You make things more black and white than they need to be. Assassins, bruisers, and cc heavy mages are also viable top laners, as bruisers like Renekton are usually either tanky or mobile enough to stay safe, strong cc champs like Lissandra have their cc, and assassins like Kassadin are just mobile. Depending on the meta, what you see top will shift. Right now, it's usually bruisers like Shyvana and Hecarim.

Jungle is optimal for champions with strong ganking potential early like LeeSin and Vi, yes, but also for strong late game champions with weak laning and decent ganks such as Udyr and Sejuani. Udyr's an especially noteworthy example as his strong waveclear allows him to clear the jungle with extreme efficiency and maintain a higher income from farming alone than most other junglers, and can usually fit ganks into that schedule as well.

You're mostly correct about mid, but there's an underlying meta there too. If the meta is long fights and sieges, you might see sustained damage or long range poke mages like Karthus and Xerath respectively, whereas a squishier, faster fighting meta where;games end early (such as one consisting of strong early game pressure junglers) favors assassins like Zed and Leblanc. Mages are also generally less mobile than assassins, and will naturally be favored more by the meta when current popular junglers have relatively weak ganks.

I won't get into bot lane as I've spent enough time on this post already, but I hope you see what I'm getting at.

Raptamei7 votes

{quoted}

Glad to know I'm not the only one who has thought this before.

Why does chess have a set of meta opening moves?

Why can't moving a side pawn be viable?

Deep Terror Nami8 votes

Let's start a petition to nerf the Queen; it's too strong and people that use it are just meta bandwagoners.

Migrañaboy2 votes

We should nerf castling, too much mobility.

XShadowAlkX3 votes

{quoted}

Why does chess have a set of meta opening moves?

Why can't moving a side pawn be viable?

Why can't I play adc Vladimir? Everything is viable right?

RamboDash153 votes

Because fuck you and your chess meta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV1bpMamCtY

RIP Tahm Kench2 votes

Would have been better to link the "No Game No Life" 'chess' game reveal, because honestly nothing in that show made sense.

junglerboy166 votes

The thing is, "Meta" isn't something anyone enforces, Meta in this context is simply the phrase that refers to "unspoken/unwritten rules of the game on an abstract level that affect how one plays the game" This is just the part of a game where you as a sentient being realize "hey, this is a better strategy/playstyle for winning than this one" and then play what you think you can win with.

Basically, as long as a game exists where more than one person plays more than one character, (i.e. not playing a single player platformer) there will be a meta. It is not something that is "enforced" or required, it simply exists, outside of any one person's control (Even Riot's).

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

The meta happens cyclically.

Champion/group A becomes popular. A lot of people use Champion/group A, because Champion/group B, more often than not, loses to A. Someone finds Champion/group C, which has strengths that beat Champion/group A. (A) becomes irrelevant because the counter (C) becomes popular, and (B) has some breathing room while (D) beats (C)...

Except it gets a lot more spider-webbed because of just how many champions and strategies exist.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

Salty much?

The difference between what I said and what you said is that you are assuming counters to mean hard counters--which make the thing weak to them completely irrelevant--where when I say counters, I mean champions with strengths that play on the other champion's weaknesses. That doesn't mean they're guaranteed to win, it means they have an advantage that you, as a player, need to know how to use in order for that advantage to have any meaning.

If you don't know how to use the counter-play, then yeah, you're not going to be helpful to the advancing of the meta.

Really, the tank meta was already shifting in; the addition of Bami's Cinder and Cinderhulk just accelerated it to an insane degree.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

JustMyBassCannon3 votes

{quoted}

Except the top tier champions are chosen specifically so that no other group has an advantage over them. They are the top tier because given equal skill, they will beat every other group regardless of how much "counterplay" there is. People are too smart to choose a meta who is at a disadvantage against another group of champion, they will simply choose the meta that has an advantage over everyone else.

Which is why the Tank meta that just came in is absolutely immune to everything--oh shit, there are champions specifically designed to counter tanks, aren't there? Never mind an entire archetype that does well against tanks when played competently.

Also, the tank meta is only shifting because gromp buff and cinderhulk got nerfed. The meta changes from balancing changes and only balancing changes.

Balance changes make it faster, but it's rare for the meta to actually be changed or enforced by balance changes. Not "it never happens" but "it rarely happens."

Occams Raiser1 votes

cyclically

I don't think you used that word right.

Champion/group A becomes popular.

Take this sentence out and you have the understanding of how meta is formed.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ElWRg7pU,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-04-20T08:13:35.817+0000)

I don't think you used that word right.

Cyclically; base word, cyclic. Describing revolving/recurring cycles.

I could either have said, "The meta is cyclic(al)," which would make cyclic/cyclical an adjective modifying the word meta, or the way I said it--"The meta happens cyclically"--works, as it turns cyclical into an adverb modifying the word happens.

Yes, I used it properly.

Take this sentence out and you have the understanding of how meta is formed.

No, with that sentence removed, you have an understanding of how the meta is perpetuated.

Occams Raiser1 votes

I did misread the word. I was tired.

On the other point. In the formation of the meta. Do you think a champs popularity comes before the effectiveness of the champ? I think they become popular in a meta because of their effectiveness. Popularity based on aesthetics isn't part of a meta. So when you said champ A becomes popular in the first statement it begs that the meta is arbitrary. I was just wondering.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Sorry for being a bit of an English knob. And, yeah, the meta is kind of arbitrary.

The meta is, basically, a player-popularized strategy that becomes the normal way to play. The two ways I've seen a playstyle become meta are either because it's a stronger and/or counter-strategy to the current meta, or (more often) someone/some team at tournament-level play used a particular strategy and it proved to be a strong strategy.

Yeah, the previous Assassin meta and the current Tank meta didn't come from tournament players, but they also lasted longer than most metas, and were initially brought about by the MP5 changes post-Season. The only other meta I can remember that lasted longer and was shifted by balance changes was the Season 2 bruiser meta with Atmog's.

The thing is, with the smaller metas that come and go due to player popularizing, those happen more due to specific champion synergies. That is why they can cycle out much faster, or even evolve over the course of a few days. The metas that happen due to, say, an entire archetype getting nerfed harshly, they're a bit harder to bypass.

Although they also bring great opportunities to understand how something is balanced and what needs to be done to improve things as well.

Occams Raiser1 votes

But you are contradicting the use of the word arbitrary. Riot may arbitrarily rebalance champs but the meta reforms and shifts due to those objective changes to the system. If it were truly arbitrary, rebalancing and nerfing items and champs would have no apparent effect on the meta. One day all of the sudden something would be popularized without any reasoned catalyst. The meta seems to be following whatever the math tells it to. Players follow what has the highest probability of achieving victory.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

You are right. I tripped myself up on that one.

What I should have said is that the meta is logical, but not entirely predictable. The meta is a term derived from meta-building, setting up the best build possible for your purpose. So it is heavily affected by balance changes.

It's hard to predict, because of the large number of champions with differing mechanics. Sometimes, it's something that's picked up immediately--like Warwick with Skirmisher's pre-nerf--and then sometimes it just lays dormant until someone popular shows just how strong it is--like old Hextech Revolver, way back before the Mordekaiser nerfs in Season...2?

The meta always makes sense. It just takes the right perspective to see the logic. So it's not arbitrary, unlike what I said earlier.

Occams Raiser1 votes

I will accept this.

Spacesuit Spiff2 votes

I'm sure we've all thought this, but try thinking about how hard it would be to make that happen. For every tier 1 champ that gets nerfed, the meta recalibrates and something else becomes god-tier. I'm just glad they try to steer the meta away from anything really unfun or stupid (like Alistar top)

Mindworm Jim2 votes

Having a metagame and having every champion be viable are not actually related. Every champion is different, thus not every champion will be equally strong in every situation. The metagame is about adjusting the best champions you choose and the strategies your team attempts based on what you think the enemy team will be doing. It's simply not feasible that every champion will be equally competitive in every conceivable meta unless you're willing to make every champion identical.

That said, my opinion is that the difference between champion strength based on match-ups is not so great that it cannot be overcome with skill, be it either familiarity with the champion being played, superior teamwork, or clutch plays in game.

chipndip12 votes

It shouldn't take a silver V to explain this, but since I play games where metas are common outside of this one, I guess I have ground to speak.

Game logistics need metas. You can't have proper balance patches without a meta because the odds of people thinking something needs buffs or nerfs will be lower than someone saying "Just play X in Z lane instead of Y". You can't have proper counter-play without a meta because you won't know who's typically going where. You can't have proper game knowledge without a meta because you'll never know what to expect a player to do. Besides, a meta is based on a community's collective knowledge about the game itself and how it works, so some sort of meta will always exist. You can choose to go against it, but in a team game, it can catch some hate. All I'm saying.

DisasterSola1 votes

{quoted}

It shouldn't take a silver V to explain this, but since I play games where metas are common outside of this one, I guess I have ground to speak.

Game logistics need metas. You can't have proper balance patches without a meta because the odds of people thinking something needs buffs or nerfs will be lower than someone saying "Just play X in Z lane instead of Y". You can't have proper counter-play without a meta because you won't know who's typically going where. You can't have proper game knowledge without a meta because you'll never know what to expect a player to do. Besides, a meta is based on a community's collective knowledge about the game itself and how it works, so some sort of meta will always exist. You can choose to go against it, but in a team game, it can catch some hate. All I'm saying.

But what about stagnated metas? In LoL, the general meta has stayed with the same 25 or so picks for years.

Meta is fine, But there are other great champions in this game who dont get played "because why play volibear when you can play Vi?". League of legends has a very real problem in the professional play. Its stagnant. The best way to fix that is a large number of bans. 2 bans per person is a GREAT idea because it forces the meta to constantly shift, which forces players to leave their comfort zones, which produces more skillfull players.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

But what about stagnated metas? In LoL, the general meta has stayed with the same 25 or so picks for years.

Meta is fine, But there are other great champions in this game who dont get played "because why play volibear when you can play Vi?". League of legends has a very real problem in the professional play. Its stagnant. The best way to fix that is a large number of bans. 2 bans per person is a GREAT idea because it forces the meta to constantly shift, which forces players to leave their comfort zones, which produces more skillfull players.

  1. From what I've heard, different champs fall in and out of favor over time. Also, there are short stints of LCS-influenced gimmicks that pop up here and there, like Shyvanna in top lane with Smite. Meta doesn't sound stagnated, especially when Riot's constantly changing the game every other month or so. If you want a stagnated meta, play Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 or something.

  2. 2 bans per person = 10 bans overall. We'd never see quite a few champs EVER AGAIN, which just punishes certain champs for being good picks, rather than simply keeping extremely dangerous match-ups out of the equation. Some champs get it rough enough already, like Katarina.

Side note) Saying one guy is worse than another because of character selection is in bad taste. Sure, some characters face roll rather easy, but it's character selection. No one told player A to pick Xerath into Zed or Katarina. No one told player Y to pick Soraka into Blitz. If you're gonna take time to learn a champ, it's your job to be prepared for different match-ups. Taking a player's credit away due to playing champ x...eh...not my cup of tea. Besides, you can't do much big talk when you're dead.

Occams Raiser1 votes

I'm down with one ban per player. 20 Bans in one game is beyond pushing it.

Snow Taradien2 votes

Everything IS viable. To a degree. Its people unwilling to break that model of what we consider to be the Meta who make the game stagnant and un fun. As well as boring.

JC DarkOmen2 votes

isnt everything viable now? its basically rock paper scissors, as long as you pick a champ thats good at what they do. this is only known as the tank meta because we're just coming off of a meta where tanks weren't viable. so in the past instead of actual tanks you picked fighters and buy an extra tank item, and you probably only have 1 or 2 of them. now, if you only have one tank its gg, and even two fighters doesnt quite cut it. so its the 'tank meta" because you need tanks, not because tanks are op

BeautifulBlanket1 votes

I absolutely hate having a meta. I still remember what really hooked me into this game. I was scrolling through the champion list and I came across this blue frost bird named Anivia and was just like "holy crap this is awesome! I can be an ice bird!" As I continued to look through champions, each one so unique, the thought dawned on me "wow, look at all the potential this game has. It seems like there is a character for everyone." Unfortunately, that's not the case. I'm never going to get through my backlog of purchased champions. Riot will keep releasing new ones, which I will grind for, just to earn my 6300 IP, so I can keep up with everyone else. We all do this, for one reason. Losing isn't fun. No matter how many champions came before, with their individual skills and stories (which is also a lost mess) they are irrelevant now. They will continue to be irrelevant, only to be forgotten in the sands of time as newer champions are released.

I advise Riot to be careful of this, because it will drive players like me away, who enjoy the characters, not just the competition. My Anivia is pretty useless. My Ashe is...still an ADC? with a damage output of a wiffle ball in comparison to the likes of Nidalee.

I have no interest in keeping up with the Jones's. I want to play champs I find intriguing and with skill sets that are fun for me. Get rid of the meta. It's going to kill the game.

Occams Raiser2 votes

Are you playing ranked with this in mind or normals? You only "have to or should" follow the meta in Ranked.

BeautifulBlanket1 votes

Oh, well I'm a moron then, because that's how I feel I have to play normals...

Occams Raiser1 votes

Is this a question? You don't have to play normals but you speak of keeping up with Jones. Ranked is all about that, while normals is about increasing skill and experimentation. If you can get a team to lock in to your odd champ select in team builder more power to you. If you choose a suboptimal path in Ranked you are trolling. They are trying to test their might. If you off-pick you better come CORRECT! or get deservedly flamed.

SleepyLionCub1 votes

Did you mean: The Tank Meta?

Only Play Darius1 votes

Because it would be impossible to balance.

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