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Mages in Bot Lane: A Discussion

ModCaptainMårvelous·2/25/2018, 11:30:58 PM·26 votes·6,151 views

Started off this comment from Meddler, where they want to adjust things. Specifically:

Mages is our minimum target. Fighters in bot lane's on our 'probably not doable this time round, but let's give it a shot and at least understand what else would be needed' list.

So let's do this. Let's talk about mages bot lane and if/how they could work. To begin, we need to understand the difference in playstyle, kit and what these characters bring to the table. Now, bear in mind, I'm separating this from the CURRENT state of the game and aiming more at what ADCs SHOULD be. Please don't come in going "REEEEEEEEE ADCS DONT PLAY LIKE THAT RIGHT NOW THEY RIGHT CLICK KILL EVERYTHING REEEEEEE"

So, historically, ADCs:

  • Massive DPS output from auto-attacks and some abilities.
  • Shine brightest mid-to-late game.
  • A focus on single-target DPS.
  • Peerless objective damage to both towers, inhibs and epic monsters.
  • Designated tank killers thanks to penetraton and steady DPS.
  • Forced mostly into glass-cannon buildsets with usually one defensive item or so.

Comparatively, mages:

  • DPS output from spells and the occasional empowered auto-attack.
  • Shine brightest early-to-mid game in most cases.
  • Varied DPS sets. Some are burst mages on single targets (Veigar, Syndra) and some are AoE monsters (Orianna, Vel'koz)
  • Control of objective/space varies mage-by-mage.
  • Goal varies, again. Mostly aim for weak/low MR targets however.
  • Tend to have open build paths where they can build some defensive and some offensive.

With these historic parameters in mind, let's turn back and look at the situation where a mage bot-lane WAS successful in the pro scene.

#Missing Link: Ziggs botlane.

First, we ask why it worked. Ziggs received a change in the mage update where his satchel could kill towers at lower % of HP. This meant that Ziggs had strong objective control. Ziggs also had his passive which dealt more damage to structures, meaning a passive/lichbane combo could decimate a tower if left unguarded. Finally, Ziggs was an all AoE champion and could easily shove the wave into an ADC's tower. This would force the ADC to be on the backfoot.

From here, we see a slight pattern. Ziggs could:

  • Shove a wave better than an ADC
  • Had comparable or even superior tower-destruction skills.
  • Semi-reliable DPS thanks to low CDs and his passive.
  • Decent enough tools to dual an ADC early, albeit he wasn't as high a hyper carry.

The problem here is that Zigg's abilities were all focused on killing towers. If Ziggs didn't have these, there's a good chance he wouldn't be the power pick he was. Because of this, he was able to circumvent the biggest issues of killing towers and consistent DPS.

#Giving Mages Bot-lane tools.

For mages to go bot-lane, they need two things:

  • 1.) A tool to better take towers/epic monsters.
  • 2.) Tools that can't be abused in the mid lane.

This is the tricky part Riot has to look into. Balancing an item to kill towers with solo lanes is tough. You could force it to be "Only when of champions are nearby" but then you have situations where mid-to-late game every mage is getting it. Mages would also need either low CD abilities or tools that allow them to do damage more consistently compared to an ADC, who is usually doing (early-to-mid anyways) one auto-attack worth of damage every second, unavoidable.

Alternatively, Riot could change how towers work to allow mages to deal more damage to them. Of course, this brings back the fear of what could happen to solo lanes. Plus with all the "TOWERS SO WEAK REEEEEEE" I can't imagine the community would welcome another tool that makes them weaker, even if just for one class.

#The Discussion

I didn't walk into this thread expecting to have an answer. Rather, I just tried to outline some of the core things that separate mages/ADCs and how you could go about closing the gap between them. So this is on the community now: Let's hear some ideas. Alternatively, if you think I got something wrong and mages need something else to survive botlane, lemme know.

This thread should be about how Riot could make mages work botlane and, maybe if we're fortunate, discover some tool or knowledge that could help bot lane be opened up to even more combinations of champions.

93 Comments

Khristophoros2/26/2018, 12:37:47 AM18 votes

People don't really try. 99.9% of people will just keep playing ADCs in bot lane because trying to break the meta is risky and there's not a big incentive. Relatively few people really care about it.

I've played Vel'Koz bot lane many times and have found it to be an extremely effective and reliable strategy but I don't really care enough to keep doing it. I just do it when I felt like playing him but I ended up in that position. So I don't think ZIggs was the only mage to be good in bot lane, but largely a lot of sleepers haven't been discovered.

Another reason the meta resists change in this game is that players believe that ADCs are necessary. So they will want to have an ADC in another position. This means to successfully find a new strategy you have to experiment with two positions/roles. Once again, there's very little incentive to do that kind of experimentation.

I think to really play a new strat, you have to accept not having certain champs you are comfortable having. You have to give up the ADC and focus on midgame domination. But then again, there are ADCs specifically for that type of strat anyways, so again, what's the benefit?

Nobody has sufficient incentive to push for mages bot lane or any other large scale meta change. Meta changes will happen organically without any sort of arbitrary direction. Every now and then somebody discovers an exception to the meta... The ADC who can go mid. The mage who can go bot lane. The ADC who can jungle. The Tank who can go mid. The support who can go mid/top. etc...

Kai Guy2/25/2018, 11:35:11 PM10 votes

An additional question, do you want to replace the marksmen completely with a mage? If ADC marksmen is still going to be a core part of a comp. Do we really want to unchain them from bot lane? If Adc mid and top become viable with out breaking up team comp into excessively squishy, doesn't that take a historically frustrating meta and make it even worse as there no penalty's to your composition?

Friendly challenge to all posters, try to down vote for bad quality of posts and not if you disagree. Lets try to break the board echo chamber effect.

Taliyah Rocks2/26/2018, 12:52:48 AM6 votes

Well, mages are mainly locked mid because of exp gain, while adcs don't care as much about exp and mainly need the gold. Which is why AD casters work better midlane than scaling adcs. Lucian and Corki are doable midlane because they mainly rely on their spells.

Maybe if you added a starter item that allowed you to receive a bigger exp share (similar to what post-rework Mordekaiser has) mages could afford to duo lane.

deadlychuck2/26/2018, 2:00:08 AM5 votes

In all honesty, if they'd never removed mana regen from AP itemization, you would probably be able to take a mage bot.

But as it stands, AD is just superior due to their lack of mana and CD restrictions on their damage, making them have better output at low levels. If marksmen didn't have almost as much scaling with their AD as mages have with their AP, then there might be a chance to reasonably keep up in the early game. Though riot decided that "ability power" was no longer the only "ability power" in the game years ago.

Kaìju2/26/2018, 8:50:54 AM4 votes

ADC player here with a unique perspective. For a while now I have experimented with mages bot for fun. If I had to make a "signature" mage to be played bot it would be Xerath, basically just an AP Sivir. He has decent mana sustain with new runes and his passive, he wave clears really well, and he does a decent job of doing DPS rather than raw nuke because of his relatively medium/low cooldowns of about 3 to 5 seconds per spell. I think a key part of allowing mages bot lane is the tower taking. A way to introduce that mechanic to them I think would be slight alterations to Nashors Tooth.

Nashors has historically been a very niche item for AP and Hybrid champions who happen to use a lot of autos. Casual on hit builds for Ori and TF, or even a meta core item on Azir. I think with some light changes Nashors could be made to fit the role of allowing mages to take towers similarly to marksmen well. And what I think makes it less likely to be abused in a solo lane is the attack speed that mid mages don't want, since most of them are designed to nuke and bottle objectives.

I would advise a test of lowering the AP, keeping the attack speed about the same, and upping the scaling on the passive, with the added note that the passive applies to towers.

Why this won't be abused mid. Mid laners are solo, and as such they only have one champion to face off against, as well as one champion to depend on. If the AP of Nashors is lowered and the scaling is increased, it helps bot lane much more than mid because of two reasons.

  1. Mid laners won't get enough damage out of it for their spells to be useful in killing their opponent in a fight, similar to if they rushed something like older Rylais in that nobody ever got in lane outside of a few exceptions like Sol. This is evident in that Lux won't rush current Nashors and Lichbane against Zed, even if both those items do help her take tower much faster simply because Zed will kill her no problem for not having enough AP to threaten him.

  2. And two, bot lane has four champions, so both mages have someone to help them shove to wave and fight, making it less damming that they don't have as much AP, similar to how it isn't the end of the game that some marksmen don't do as much damage early, because their support helps them manage the wave and trade with the enemy.

These changes in addition to longer match times and runes like Gathering Storm could allow mages to fill a similar late game team comp at the expense of a marksmen. I myself have won games with triple mage compositions simply because even with MR a Malzahar, Lux, and Xerath will just overwhelm a frontline that happens to get caught in the vast amount of CC an extra mage can bring. But at the same time if the team fails, they lose and rightly so because they did not take advantage of their mid game team well.

Thoughts?

a little shadow2/26/2018, 9:02:09 AM3 votes

So to be able to go bot lane they have to be able to kill towers or control objectives. Unless someone else can fill that role on the team then the bot lane carry has to be able to do it. So the real question is: How can we make mages be able to kill towers and control objectives in the bot lane and not in the mid lane? Right now the only way for mages to kill towers quickly is if it's built into their kit (Morde, Ziggs) or if they can build correct itemization(Lich bane or nashor's) but both of those options can be used in other lanes easily.

You could change a core item in the different build paths to opt into a structure damage route. item 3070 , item 3010 building into an item that lets spells deal reduced damage to turrets so mages who can spam abilities like Cassiopeia Ryze Karthus Anivia Annie Xerath AurelionSol could opt out of hard scaling/poke builds for seige builds. item 3057 variation that does more damage to bot tower pre 25 minutes or something forwave clearing lich bane users like Ekko Zoe and possibly Diana TwistedFate Teemo

Maybe another change could be a new type of support or support build path that can help supports enable different types of champs. Maybe this could be done by a support item or new support champion that uses a toggle system that lets the support farm the wave but give all gold to the binded teammate(to help with bruisers getting over harassed trying to walk up to farm before they spike) For example a champion like Zyra Malzahar or Heimerdinger builds an item that lets them just sit back and try and push waves and keep safe while someone like Gangplank Aatrox Nasus Yasuo scales up for late game team fights.

Edit: Gangplank and Nasus actually wouldnt work too well becuase they have to be the one farming because of their kits but maybe a new type of bruiser niche could be filled by adding true scaling bruisers who can't survive in lane alone.

Attticus Finch2/26/2018, 2:12:42 AM3 votes

What are the dynamics in DotA that allow more freedom in lane compositions?

Why is it that there is no ADC equivalent in Heroes of the Storm (a mandatory class that must exist in every match on both teams)?

LoL shojld not be a 1:1 copy of these games but I think answering them would give a more clear frame-work for discussion in where League is going wrong, and how to fix the stringent requirements for bot lane.

Stratageur2/26/2018, 2:23:18 AM3 votes

I think they're two thing that separate Adc from mages,

*Sustain With Ad trading, they can life steal on creeps and champions whereas mages have to wait arrounds 3min to get full life. (Remember when Morde could buy full health potion as a starter?)

*Critical strike The comparison is difficult since I personally don't know the scale of dps between Ad and Mages but i'm pretty sure I wouldn't compare landing a skillshot, having more cdr to landing a single and dealing twice the amount (unlike other game that deal it thrice).

I hope to see a clash swain + leona agains't lucian + braum to see who the biggest all in but what limit the choice is the communication with other arround none metalanepick. (A singed player played support with smite and even in carry is still eligeable to be reported) All that left is friend to play with to indulge that...

But anyway I'll suggest to create a way to know if AOE is as effective like does arcane comet since mage is more arround that so people would not have to worry to pick them on bot lane

Glory972/26/2018, 1:20:02 PM3 votes
  1. A double mage backline struggles too much against tanks. You need crit to melt down the beefy hp bars of full tank seju and chogaths. Even though reworked liandries isnt bad, it not even close too enough. And if playing botlane ap means forcing a teammate to play adc elswhere it's not a soloqueue solution. Some of the tank shredding power needs to be shifted from adc to mages. (Add in small percentage health dmg into mage abilities, but not in a way that the burst of mages is buffed. Nerf mortal reminder/ lord dominiks.)
  2. Fleet Footwork needs to be removed/reworked. Botlane ziggs was viable because of his strong laning phase. Fleet footwork just makes poke oriented agressive botlanes impossible, because it just gives too much sustain. Back then adcs played primarily with fervour of battle, and warlords bloodlust was kind of weak.
  3. Support items that assist ap-botlane champions.
  4. Crit-items cant be that much cheaper than ap-items.
  5. (Maybe?) A Uniqueness of double ap-backline? Rightnow every adc can match a mage's waveclear by buying statiks. I suggest that statiks passive should be reworked or statiks should be changed into a nieche item, that you only buy in certain situations, similar to how the morellos with grivious wounds became a nieche item. (Make baron empowered minions more vulnearble against magic damage, but better against ad-damage.)
Pika Fox2/26/2018, 3:03:37 AM2 votes

Reasons why bot lane exist the way it does;

There are 5 champs per team

There are 3 lanes + 1 jungle

Optimal gold income is important

Optimal distribution is 1 person per gold resource + 1 extra

Bot and mid lanes are closer to dragon, which is an important early game resource

Mid is the smallest lane, meaning they get gold income and exp faster, and is equi-distant between bottom and top. Gank centric and level centric champions (or immobile) work great here as a result, and exp splitting mid is less desireable as a result (although i would love to see someone try a 1-2-1 (1 jungle) meta with 2 mobile and gank powerful champs mid. Might be fun.)

Someone needs to utilize gold income items, which requires not obtaining CS

So you end up with 1 top, 1 mid, 1 jungle, 2 bot.

Next, why ADCs are the way they are;

Defense trumps Offense as a stat. Every time.

Towers and barons are tanky, and the faster you can kill them, the faster you can end the game.

Thus, ideally you end up with 4 relatively utility/tanky heavy champs for fighting and 1 champ that has all the objective killing power.

The ADC role is what is tasked with killing objectives as a result.

So, bot lane is an exp split lane where 1 person gets farm and 1 person gets goldgen farm. ADCs need to kill objectives, which requires gold and not so much levels, so theyre perfect to take the exp split, and have a 2nd laner to help get them gold.

If you want a mage bot, theyll either need to take objectives well, or make standard ADCs have better map presence and mages less reliant on levels. (ADCs are viable mid, but dont gank as well, and their job is less reliant on levels. Likewise, a mage is more reliant on levels and base damage than they are with items)

Teridax682/26/2018, 8:39:42 AM2 votes

This might just be the Dunning-Kruger effect talking for me, but I feel a relatively simple way to make mages push objectives better could just be to drastically reduce the MR of certain structures and neutral objectives, even give some of them negative MR. For example, giving the bottom outer turret low MR, but not the mid lane turret, would allow bot mages to push better without necessarily bleeding over to better mid lane power. Similarly, giving Dragon and Baron, but not Rift Herald, lower MR, and rebalancing certain outliers in the mid lane or jungle, could also allow bot lane mages to contribute better.

While this might be a bit riskier, I also think we should start making at least some abilities affect turrets: one of the major reasons why marksmen are considered the only class capable of pushing is because they're the only class whose abilities can damage turrets with some consistency, due to providing autoattack steroids. Allowing all classes to damage turrets in their own way would equalize the playing field significantly, without taking away the innate DPS advantage of marksmen. There might be an objection that some spells outrange turrets, and could therefore push too safely, but there are many ways to approach this: one easy solution, for example, could be to just make some abilities not affect structures at all, but even that might not be necessary, since marksmen already have "abusive" pushing power via heavy manaless damage and the occasional ability to outrange turrets (RFC banks on this), and are doing just fine. Moreover, several other MOBAs let their characters damage structures with their abilities, at no real negative cost to game health. In fact, in many cases this makes games healthier, since it becomes much more difficult to turtle up and discourage opponents from pushing. Therefore, removing the AP-to-damage ratio structures innately have, and instead allowing champions to damage structures with their abilities, with fine-tuning as needed, could diversify pushing significantly.

If I have one criticism for this discussion, it's that it focuses a little too hard on trying to make non-marksmen carry by giving certain champions the same strengths as marksmen. While I do think strengths like pushing power and objective control shouldn't be exclusive to one class, I don't think homogenizing class profiles would be all that beneficial to diversity either. Ultimately, a carry curve is defined by the ability to scale extremely well to the late game, so if certain champions get to carry through factors other than just pushing power, we should be valuing that, sooner than trying to bend them into fitting a mold. One strength I think should be valued, for example, is the AoE potential of many mages: just as a skilled marksman can take down an enemy team via sustained damage, so should a skilled mage be able to wipe out multiple enemies at a time with proper aim and/or setup. Therefore, allowing mages to contribute equally, yet differently, to teamfights could give them a significantly better chance of competing with marksmen.

Blu 12/26/2018, 2:47:18 AM2 votes

I think:

Mordekaiser style bonus xp would be needed

Also probably EITHER more base AD or more mana regen. If riot want spells to be used for trading then you won't be able to match ADC's wave push since your autos are weaker, if spells are for the wave then you don't have much left to trade with. If spells are for both then mages will need more mana in lane. Maybe have an item where if you have another person nearby you get mana per second, then mid mages can't abuse it.

CrazedPorcupine2/26/2018, 9:57:31 AM2 votes

Personally, I think that the only change that Mage's Need are an increase in the % of AP converted to damage on auto attacks to structures to be improved from 40% to 45% (5% makes a HUGE difference), and that the bonus should be applied to Epic Monsters as well (Dragon/Baron/Rift Herald). This would allow them to be slightly better at taking towers without overly weakening them, while also allowing them to deal more damage to neutral objectives while they have to wait for cooldowns.

I also think specific champions should be reworked to be better suited to the bot lane 2v2 scenario. Champions I think would work great:

  1. Kayle: She's historically been a big DPS based character that deals heavy hybrid/magic damage. I think having a better E Cooldown would help Kayle out a ton, or a more powerful heal so that she can better take the harass that comes when her E is down early game. This could also boost her jungle, making her a more viable flex pick that could go to a variety of locations.
  2. Azir: He's actually got the scaling pattern of a hypercarry ADC, and if they weakened his early game enough, I'd wholly support some buffs to his late game damage. I think nerfs to his early soldier cooldown, and soldier damage with buffs to his AP ratios, along with reducing his soldier's range from 850 down to 700. This means Azir has a bit less of a "control" Zone. Next you could also bring back his W "Nuke Tower" ability in exchange for a much longer Soldier cooldown overall. This means that Azir would have larger windows of openings for bullying, trades and some better sieging power. 3: Cassiopeia: Another high DPS mage that has the scalings to work as a bot lane mage. Honestly, she'd need a slightly longer delay on Q explosion so it's a bit easier to avoid, but a slightly higher heal on the E heal on poisoned target. Though this would have to be a very "Cautious" change, as it could actually really mess with the flow and timings that many long time Cass player's have.

Those are the 3 "Mages" that I think deserve to be bot lane AP carries the most.

Acheron162/26/2018, 2:11:25 PM2 votes

The problem is that mages are usually the least interactive class outside of midlane, basically pushing ad nauseum and then poking when they have the advantage. Say what you will about adcs vs melee, but those types of people clearly have faced a mage vs melee matchup. The adc will die once you close the distance, the vast majority of mages will just CC you (usually dealing lots of damage in the meanwhile) and back-off, even in long lanes.

Ziggs bot worked because he has ridiculous pushing power and adcs at the time where trash (the whole "adc in 2k17 lul" meme), if he and similar types of mages were given itemization to exist in bot lane they would probably be overbeaeing anywhere else.

Think about it, why do mages go mid? Because they scale the most with both levels and gold. Why do adcs and supports go bot? Because adcs scale hardest with gold and least with levels (at least historically, more and more adcs have abilities tied to levels nowadays), while supports dont need either due to their utility.

Kmowing this, we can easily conclude that if mages are viable in the botlane (AKA, they can thrive in a low EXP environment) then they will most certainly be broken anywhere else. Either that or their sole job botlane will be to nullify a character on the enemy team, by making the enemy adc useless. Neither prospects are any good since the former means they will simply be numerically OP while the latter means they will be massive lane-bullies that make a player unable to play the game.

I honestly think Riot has no way of making mages viable in a duo-lane unless they are broken, either too strong in general or too weak to exist in a solo lane.

Yaskamasandwich2/26/2018, 5:59:40 PM2 votes

I always bring this up about change, and that is class power spikes have to go. We have to get rid of this notion that lets say Kog'maw is late game because he is a Marksmen. Change it back to Kog'maw is a late game champion because he is Kog'maw, his kit is supported to late game. There are a bunch of late game champions that are in weird spots or had to be reworked to no longer be late game champions because they were not Marksmen.

I also firmly believe that hyper carries have to be toned down to late game carries. There should only be early - mid - late game champions. Hyper late game champions throw a wrench into balance. If they are not working they suck. If they are working they become beyond god like broken and replace every late game champion, and hell perhaps every champion in general. Just look at Trist, Vayne, Kog, and Twitch for examples. They are always either garbage or must pick or bans. No in between because they are hyper carries.

ProfDrDeath2/26/2018, 7:53:23 PM2 votes

Mages don't need to bring the same tools as ADCs to be able to be taken botlane - that is a misconception that, if implemented, would simply supplant ADCs with mages and have no effect on opening up the meta otherwise.

The reason for that is that most people, including this very thread, look at it from the wrong side - the basic premise for the ADC in the bot lane is not that these champions (specifically in that very position) is not that they bring sustained damage to take down tanks, towers and objectives to a team. That's their general power as a class, independent of their position on the map.

No, the reason ADCs are situated as the usual gold-gaining partner in the duo lane is that their champion archetype (ranged champions with a focus on auto-attack damage) is the least negatively affected by sharing XP. Champions can generally be sorted, as far as their relative dependency on Gold and XP are concerned, on two axis: The first being their range of abilities and, more importantly, auto-attacks and the second being their general balance focus between abilities and auto-attacks.

On the first axis, shorter-ranged champions, especially if they have a melee auto-attack, are more dependent on levels than their longer-ranged compatriots. The reason for this is that their lower range necessitates their movement into the enemy's sphere of influence to do their stuff, and thus open themselves up for all the nastiness that the enemy can throw at them. You can't hurt what you can't hit, after all, and that goes in both directions. Thus, shorter-ranged champions want that tankiness they can get from leveling up, especially since base stat growth is notably higher the lower your general ranges are to boot. Longer-ranged champions, on the other hand, have their range as their form of safety, and that seldomly changes significantly over the whole level range (only exceptions: Tristana, Kindred and Gnar). In addition, their defensive stat growth is lower anyways. Thus, longer-ranged champions are better suited for sharing experience from a defensive perspective.

The second axis is where offensive prowess comes into play more strongly. Generally speaking, ability-focused champions are more dependent on XP than those who draw the bulk of their damage from auto-attacks. This is not only linked to base damage improvements with ability rank-ups, but also to the improved non-damage aspects - most skills get a combination of improved cooldowns, longer durations, better CC, better utility and better ranges with each skill point you put into them. While the damage increases can be duplicated by purchasing stats (meaning, gold), these secondary aspects cannot - in fact, things like shorter base cooldowns actually scale multiplicatively with purchased CdR! Auto-attack damage, on the other hand, does not scale as hard with XP. Only 3 out off the 5 factors that scale auto-attack damage are even affect by XP at all - critical strike chance and critical damage are both stats that can only be purchased with gold. Additionally, Resistance Penetrations is not universally affected by XP, too - it exists only on specific champion's kits.

The combination of these two axis matters even more for ranged, auto-attack-based champions - what is usually known as Marksmen. Their longer-ranged nature means lower base stats, anyway - not only for defensive purposes, but also for offensive ones. For most Marksmen, the amount of AD they gain from 17 levels worth of XP is equalized by as little as 1300 gold - the cost of a single item 1038 . AS gains from levels are very similar - average AS gain is about 51%, which is about 4.25 item 1042 s' worth (1275 gold). And out of the class, none gets Armor Penetration with XP. This makes the class notably less affected by sharing XP if they have access to a whole gold stream. And it is the reason why the gold-gaining partner in a duo lane is usually a Marksman.

Now, should Riot open that position up for champions of different classes?

Abso-frigging-lutely. This is a change that is very necessary for the game to evolve, as it would be a huge help to balancing out other classes. Since the bot lane position is usually occupied by a Marksman with his strength of sustained damage and tank/tower/objective taking, a good team comp would put a lot less emphasis on the same power from a different position - or, to put it differently, Juggernauts and Skirmishers who share sustained damage and tower/tank/objective taking as one of their class strengths become a lot less desirable.

And that is why I don't think Riot should give bot lane mages the same strengths as Marksmen - because that doesn't fix the issue with the locked bot lane in the first place. Rather, Riot would ideally find a way for mages that are not sustained-damage based to express their strength in the bot lane - thus opening up teamcomps to go look for that sustained damage in other positions.

Now, this is just my opinion. But I'd bet dollar to donuts that, in the end, Riot's effort to open up the bot lane by different starting items only will result in a few patches of great imbalance and, after the resulting nerfs, of business as usual.

Potchikir2/26/2018, 7:57:48 PM2 votes

REEEEEEEEE ADCS DONT PLAY LIKE THAT RIGHT NOW THEY RIGHT CLICK KILL EVERYTHING REEEEEEE

OtterlyLost2/26/2018, 3:04:58 AM2 votes

So what happens if these options for botlane work out better than normal ADCs? Where would ADC's be expected to go? Because, when the meta was Ziggs bot, what happened was that ADCs just couldn't function against him. Why would you pick an ADC when Ziggs can do everything they can do only burstier? How would you even balance that out so that ADCs aren't getting shoved out of their own lane?

chipndip12/27/2018, 4:34:41 AM1 votes

This is when we rework Nashor's Tooth into "Useful Nashor's Tooth".

Hovering Hentai2/26/2018, 1:02:05 AM1 votes

If my friend and I are tilted we'll take Xerath and Lissandra bot lane.

If you know what you're doing this pairing is STUPID strong

Flawless Fetus2/27/2018, 12:59:45 AM1 votes

You're probably aware of this, but it wasn't mentioned. Adcs are the best tower takers, sure, but mages aren't that far behind. Mages damage to tower scales with ap. It's a fringe case, but I broke 1k ap on veigar a week or so a go and was annihilating towers. Point being, even now, mages aren't bad at taking towers as long as they have a respectable amount of ap.

creatureplex3/4/2020, 12:35:23 AM1 votes

I fucking hate you right now, because trying to move up as an adc main is even more of a pain in the ass now. I have to dodge half my fucking games are accept the fact that bot lane is a lost lane. It's oppressive as fuck and has now become kind of meta and in lower ello it's a bitch to fucking deal with because most supports actual supports are designed with dealing with this type of shit. I feel like I have to abandon marksman altogether just to move up through bronze because mages are ruling bot lane now and it's no fun to play against. Here try getting tot my adc ill just unleash and entire combo on your ass. Before it was watch for soraka's heal, or sona aoe stun, thresh's pull now it's dodge this dodge that 4get about trading because you can't trade with a mage because 4 autos is a tickle to one mage ability. Riot needs to fine a way to remove mages from bot lane completely or nerf the entire fucking class so it's not so oppressive in bot lane to deal with.

Flawless Fetus2/27/2018, 1:00:07 AM1 votes

You're probably aware of this, but it wasn't mentioned. Adcs are the best tower takers, sure, but mages aren't that far behind. Mages damage to tower scales with ap. It's a fringe case, but I broke 1k ap on veigar a week or so a go and was annihilating towers. Point being, even now, mages aren't bad at taking towers as long as they have a respectable amount of ap.

LazerBlade41452/27/2018, 3:36:21 AM1 votes

IMO I think mages all they need is a little boost you know, I like how there's a clear weakness when picking a APC/ADC. examples with clear weakness with APC are 1. most have a great early game/mid game compared to ADC, 2. they normally have great wave clear compared to most ADC's, yea there are some outlier's that can go both ways. 3. a lot of CC and control then ADC's. But APC don't take towers and drake/barons fast(yes ZIggs can take turrets and Cass/Azir could melt drakes/barons but they can't take BOTH tower and drakes/barons very fast compared to ADC). also they need a lot of mana to kill a tank. again yes there are some outlier's like Azir. but there are some powerful MR items like item 3194

On the other hand we have ADC's.1: great DPS for everything. 2: no need for mana and CDR(well for the most part at least) But most ADC's need someone to peel them while APC's don't normally have sups with them. so most mages can take care of them selves while ADC again for the most part need a SUP.

TBH I think mages just need a boost like I said earlier. maybe a item that gives them 1 more ability point so there abilities are still strong with out buffing the EXP.(the ability elixir, you used to get it from the SUP coin line. now you can only get it by chance by using Klepto.)

TBH I feel like people are just not trying to play mages bot lane with out trolling their teammates or angry. because EVERY buddy feel like you MOST have a ADC.(altho ATM yea ADC are pretty dang strong because of SUP and trist) Those are my thoughts on the matter, sorry if i wasn't that helpful.

Draehl2/27/2018, 4:05:00 AM1 votes

Broadly speaking as a support main who likes a more active lane I'm happy with the general idea. I've never much liked laning with "farm until endgame and autoattack for the win" type ADCs, but rather the ones that have good poke and/or combo potential like Jhin Jinx MissFortune Varus Caitlyn . Would be fun to see some mages in the botlane since those ADC's I mentioned are more mage-like and make for a more interesting game, especially as a support who is pretty good at laning his CC.