They aren't Teemo's gift to the rift. They aren't the most balanced sub-class. They aren't even that well designed as a class in most instances. Can we stop ramming these notions down people's throats that juggernauts are this amazing concept in the game? They actually kind of aren't...
JustMonika1334 votesConsidering how anti-ADC the boards is right now, the jerking off to juggernauts probably isn't going to stop.
Mens Hair Club4 votesthey're not remotely related
the same people talking about juggernauts now are the ones who have been posting about them for months or years
xelaker8 votesthey are very related...
Mens Hair Club2 votesno they aren't. there's hardly any juggernaut support beyond the same group of people who've been circulating boards already
DuskDaUmbreon5 votesAnd those people are also constantly posting about marksmen being broken...
Mens Hair Club1 votesoutside of the few broken ones i could not care less what riot does with marksmen
let the champs i like be usable in the rank i'm trying to get to and i'll be content
Spank the Fox1 votesyou can reach at least diamond 5 with any champion, if you're good at the game.
Malicious Metal19 votesConsidering how anti-ADC the boards is right now,
Right now? The boards always hate on ADC's.
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesEh. For a while, they weren't. During assassin metas, they don't. But that's because marksmen become nearly completely useless in them, barring the precious few that do decently against assassins, such as Kindred.
Spank the Fox8 votesLmao, wait til Lee Sin or any assassin regains viability.
Snowplosion16 votesThe Boards hate everything.
lojician1 votesBecause riot has always fellated them.
DragonShea1 votesConsidering how anti-ADC the boards is right now, the jerking off to juggernauts probably isn't going to stop.
Juggin' dez nutz.
#IN YO FACE
My Heartshaker3 votesI know right? Jesus christ the amount of unwarranted salt about ADCs is ridiculous.
JustMonika131 votes[{quoted}](name=Lives in Bin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fnh9WATG,comment-id=00000004,timestamp=2017-09-12T00:02:12.860+0000)
I know right? Jesus christ the amount of unwarranted salt about ADCs is ridiculous.
If this is sarcasm: Salt again ADCs isn't unwarranted, nor did I imply that it was. I just pointed out a fact. Seeing as Juggernaut's main weakness is their being prone to kiting, people hold Juggernauts to a "do them justice" pedistal in this Hell of ADC supremacy.
If this isn't sarcasm: ... ADC main.
Critmaster Garen12 votesThey aren't Teemo's gift to the rift. They aren't the most balanced sub-class. They aren't even that well designed as a class in most instances. Can we stop ramming these notions down people's throats that juggernauts are this amazing concept in the game? They actually kind of aren't...
which is why we want riot to do more work on them?
no carry class in this game is truely perfect with all of its champions. especially not marksmen that arent any better designed than juggernauts.
where else than the gameplay boards are we supposed to express our opinions towards changes of a class of champions and their itemization?
if juggernauts need work done on them, it makes sense that there are a lot of threads on the boards focused around them, no?
Skorch11 votesI think hes talking about the people who hail them even though they are flawed. And also base balance on who juggernauts are strong and weak against.
Critmaster Garen5 votesI think hes talking about the people who hail them even though they are flawed. And also base balance on who juggernauts are strong and weak against.
as a designed concept, i dont think theyre flawed.
its just a couple of juggernauts that have flawed mechanics or kits.
but especially 
is amazing design in my personal opinion. his entire playstile is fair and leaves counterplay to his opponent, while he has very clearly defined strengths.
you dodge his e, and fight him between ghouls spawns and youre good. you get trapped by his w and hit by his e to draw ghoul aggro, you better lube up.
he can take fights against ranged champions and melee champions almost equally well.
he might need some tweaks to his maiden a.i. and maybe some straight buffs to some of his abilities, but his kit design is one of the best in the game.
Skorch9 votesIm not gonna say on balance specifically. But every class has things that just kinda suck to fight (I mean thats the point of strength and weaknesses)
I think OP is complaining not on balance but the fact of "ADCs are broken becase they counter me, i dont like fighting fighters in the top lane they bully juggernauts too hard, assassins are doing too much damage to me and im a tank. Why cant we have a juggernaut meta again it is OBVIOUSLY the most BALANCED meta." Ignoring that during juggernaut metas they are equally terrifying.
Sure there are people who dont do that. But thats not what OP is talking about.
Critmaster Garen4 votesIm not gonna say on balance specifically. But every class has things that just kinda suck to fight (I mean thats the point of strength and weaknesses)
I think OP is complaining not on balance but the fact of "ADCs are broken becase they counter me, i dont like fighting fighters in the top lane they bully juggernauts too hard, assassins are doing too much damage to me and im a tank. Why cant we have a juggernaut meta again it is OBVIOUSLY the most BALANCED meta." Ignoring that during juggernaut metas they are equally terrifying.
Sure there are people who dont do that. But thats not what OP is talking about.
i honestly dont see much of anything about that.
most of the time i see discussions about specific juggs who are out of meta, struggling or generally could use changes to their kits to make them more effective.
sometimes improvements that could be done to their items and their general state.
i really havent seen anyone specifically claim they want a "juggernaut meta" of juggs dominating the game.
Skorch2 votesThese types of posts arent often (I have seen it before)
But there is a lot of bias towards those types of champions on the boards.
SpecterVonBaren1 votesIronically (I think this is a good time to describe it that way) the most balanced the game has ever been was before the Juggernaut patch. People banned Sej and Gragas and then just kind of picked whatever they wanted, it was glorious.
chipndip19 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fnh9WATG,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-09-11T17:49:49.237+0000)
as a designed concept, i dont think theyre flawed.
The issue of jugs as a class is that no one believes in the notion that a target should be tanky AND deal good damage at the same time. People stand by jugs because they're intentionally kept down by Riot 24/7, but what would happen if a jug champion became kind of "meta" or "decently viable"? Everyone would hate on them just like the jugs patch. The thought of someone being a damage threat and tanky at the same time...people around here just don't jive with it. The foundation of the class's fantasy is something no one actually wants save jug players.
Although, if you really ask me, I personally think the real issue with the class is that they aren't allowed good ways to actually engage opponents on their own terms. Some do, like Olaf and his axes and ult, but most just sort of sit around and hope someone walks into them. After mid game, they're done being all that useful to the team. They're kind of taxing on team compositions for little benefit in the long run.
Critmaster Garen4 votesThe issue of jugs as a class is that no one believes in the notion that a target should be tanky AND deal good damage at the same time. People stand by jugs because they're intentionally kept down by Riot 24/7, but what would happen if a jug champion became kind of "meta" or "decently viable"? Everyone would hate on them just like the jugs patch. The thought of someone being a damage threat and tanky at the same time...people around here just don't jive with it. The foundation of the class's fantasy is something no one actually wants save jug players.
Although, if you really ask me, I personally think the real issue with the class is that they aren't allowed good ways to actually engage opponents on their own terms. Some do, like Olaf and his axes and ult, but most just sort of sit around and hope someone walks into them. After mid game, they're done being all that useful to the team. They're kind of taxing on team compositions for little benefit in the long run.
juggs are supposed to be the antithesis to marksmen.
they cant often engage on their own, but need tanks and enchanters to support them to initiate fights and help them get in range to stick and survive.
marksmen do exactly the opposite.
i honestly couldnt care less if people think a champion shouldnt be a damage threat and tanky at the same time. most of these people are new to the game, theyre sitting stuck in the low divisions because they simply dont understand this game well enough, or they come from other games like mmo's where these champions dont exist as they dont make much sense in a pve setting.
coincidentally, these are the same games in which the main dps classes are almost entirely ranged. due to many pve encounters using distance to the player as a metric for building aggro.
this doesnt mean the concept of slow, tanky melee carries cant work well in league, should be ignored or even supressed.
chipndip12 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fnh9WATG,comment-id=00050000000000020000,timestamp=2017-09-11T18:50:43.145+0000)
juggs are supposed to be the antithesis to marksmen.
they cant often engage on their own, but need tanks and enchanters to support them to initiate fights and help them get in range to stick and survive.
marksmen do exactly the opposite.
I don't think jugs are the antithesis to marksmen.
You're rate in the following supporting points, but the point of a marksman is to be safe and carry their team through tough objectives. The antithesis of a marksman would be an assassin, where the point of them is to jump into the fray despite being frail and take out as many carry picks as possible. Where marksmen work to build the strength to end the game, assassins start stronger than carry picks do and work to keep carries down. That's just my personal take on the whole "opposite of marksmen" thing.
ANYWHO, something more on topic here: Jugs don't serve as primary AD damage dealers for a team, nor do they serve as decent tank options...NOR do they serve as respectable replacements for either of those concepts. If they could find a way into that fold somehow, I think they'd be way better in the game as a whole.
i honestly couldnt care less if people think a champion shouldnt be a damage threat and tanky at the same time.
You and me both, but Riot does. -_-
DuskDaUmbreon2 votesSome juggs can serve as decent replacements for tanks. They're never the best option for it, but they're not that bad for it, either.
DragonShea1 votesSome juggs can serve as decent replacements for tanks. They're never the best option for it, but they're not that bad for it, either.
They are what we call an off tank.
Mens Hair Club1 votesthey aren't allowed good ways to actually engage opponents on their own terms.
they kinda can, at least most of them. Darius pull, Yorick E, Urgot E if he's close enough
i think you mean in grouped situations where they have to wait for the enemy team to make a move before they can do anything, but i'd attribute that less to juggernaut designs and more that "walking into the middle of the fight" is going to get you stunlocked by the tank and/or the support; in past seasons before CC wasn't on literally everything, the juggernauts that were here before 'juggernauts' was a term were generally pretty solid.
so i guess it's more that the 'idea' of their kit is just poorly implemented into how League functions; they're, in a sense, too fair considering the hurdles they have to overcome
I'd say this problem could be solved if Juggs had sparing hard CC of their own so they could make their own opportunity to walk in your direction, but that's supposedly a huge no-no for them. and giving them in-kit or on-an-item ways to outplay CC is apparently bad, too. it's their weakness after all cough 
cough 
Spoofghoul1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fnh9WATG,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-09-11T17:49:49.237+0000)
he can take fights against ranged champions and melee champions almost equally well.
And that is why i play him mid
Because, like the other champ, Sion, that i play mid he shits on 95% of what is generally played in that lane x'D
DragonShea1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fnh9WATG,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-09-11T17:49:49.237+0000)
as a designed concept, i dont think theyre flawed.
its just a couple of juggernauts that have flawed mechanics or kits.
but especially
you dodge his e, and fight him between ghouls spawns and youre good. you get trapped by his w and hit by his e to draw ghoul aggro, you better lube up.
True because the shove is getting shoved up the bonghole.
Xion The XIV1 votesAnd when they pick then counter with their 
for the free stacks. I love Yorick if you get him up to the point you can tank a team and still kill almost all of them. But I do not like his design in which he can make a champion infinitely stronger by using your passive.
Jerry SeinfeId1 voteshonestly i have to disagree. Let me start with saying Yorick rework is one of my favourite reworks yet (first rework when i was playing was trist fyi).
He's just so limited by maiden it's dumb. When maiden is up you can't lose a 1v1 and in a teamfight you never die. When maiden isn't up you can barely trade with anyone, add to that that your only way of controlling her is mourning mist.
This leads to him being an unstoppable god when he's fed but being pretty useless when behind.
Mens Hair Club8 votesyes they are, of course not they're heinously underpowered, and yes they are
thank you
Ahristocats2 votesdude you're replying to a sona otp
what are you expecting from someone calling juggernauts bad design when they're x1500 000 better than marksmen
Malicious Metal6 votesWell, Morde is better than any Marksman right now. So by that logic:
Juggernauts>Marksmen
Mens Hair Club9 votesdo you really need to insult someone every time you post, man?
even i'm not that rude
Ahristocats1 votesi do it when the post is "why are you saying this guys? i'm going to say the opposite without any arguments and get upvoted"
Mens Hair Club1 votesyou catch more flies with honey
Nymzo8 votesThat's what happen when the most popular player on the gameplay board one trick a Juggernaut and post about the said Juggernaut at least once a week.
Like or not, that will have influence on a few peoples.
ModCaptainMårvelous8 votesCould you imagine if Juggergods were actually top-tier in high level play?
The QQ that would emerge from Darius 1v5-ing enemy teams or Yorick being an unkillable meat wall would be delicious.
Sad Tyrant4 voteshere is a funny fact, while QQ looks like crying eyes, it originated in Warcraft as a way to tell people to exit because unskilled. as ALT Q Q was a way to quit
QQ is also the name of a instant messaging system made by Tencent
Abibyama1 votesSooooooo just like Juggernauts patch
me gusta
Zero Skill Tank6 votesThey aren't even that well designed as a class in most instances.
I'm kind of conflicted while writing that, because I adore playing and 
, but from a game design stand point, juggs are like the worst class.
This is first and foremost PvP game, enemies have divine, inalienable right to fight you. Their ability to avoid that absolutely doesn't justify their need to. The producer can't expect their playerbase to spend the game running from someone just because they can do it - they just won't, becuase this is not why they press 'launch'.
OurLestrade5 votesI've always felt that the concept makes perfect sense, but there's no world where juggernauts can actually be healthy.
Bańg5 votesIronic enough supports are the ones being super biased on this site.
u cant say anything against them without getting downvoted to hell and given the most braindead responses.
you have janna players thinking their champ is difficult to play and its just insane how they can put 1 and 1 together.
supports are considered the "holiest" role in the game.
if you play it you're "bulled" by your team and picked on every game .
Karfuss2 votes[{quoted}](name=Riven xp ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fnh9WATG,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-09-11T18:45:48.071+0000)
Ironic enough supports are the ones being super biased on this site.
u cant say anything against them without getting downvoted to hell and given the most braindead responses.
you have janna players thinking their champ is difficult to play and its just insane how they can put 1 and 1 together.
supports are considered the "holiest" role in the game.
if you play it you're "bulled" by your team and picked on every game .
And this is why support players challenge others to play the role consistently and well.
Shields don't have much skill expression, no, perhaps timing. Their itemisation, their inability to do meaningful damage and them being wholly reliant on the ADC does. Janna is simply a symptom of the current meta, no getting around that. Keep people off the right clicker and it's game over, and nobody does it better than Janna. Saw the exact same issue during the 'Protect Kog'Maw' team comps, if you played back then.
Does that mean Janna, specifically, is OP? Debatable. When were ADCs ever not mandatory/bad, and when did Janna have a low win rate? There is a piggybacking causal link there. I only recall one instance where ADCs had higher win rates than passive supports, and that was the mage 'support' invasion of bot lane.
Supports rank just below junglers on the 'who can I blame for losing lane?' list. So yes, supports are often subject to toxicity from their ADCs. And "braindead responses" is just code for an opinion that doesn't resonate with our own, and I'd call that true bias. Ironically.
sobi9991 votesNow that i am somewhat used to playing support, its actually me who is always toxic to my adc's. REVENGE!
Kloqdq3 votesI know like a small handful of them and most of them are morde mains. The boards for the most part will argue that juggs are either OP or worthless. Most on the side of juggs saying they are worthless.
