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"""Just play better. Assassins aren't bad, you are."""

Astôlfo··85 votes·5,578 views

Every single assassin takes around 2-3s to kill a carry with their full combo, except Kha'Zix and Rengar.

And then LeBlanc and Katarina have strong damage, but the delays effectively make them mages instead of assassins, because LeBlanc has delays and skillshots while Katarina needs to proc her daggers which make up 99% of her damage. And AP Shaco is complete cancer.

But anyways.…

Yes, thank you for the amazing critique, dear random ignorant player!

Let me dodge the point-and-click Exhaust that turns any champion into a minion. Or burst through shields that can essentially cover an entire carry's worth of health. Or hope I can kill the carry before Redemption and/or lifesteal heals them back to full. Or break through Knight's Vow's damage reduction. Or dodge targeted autoattacks that crit for 700-800+ late game each when said specific ADCs have 2+ AS and carries generally have ~1900 health. Or dance around aimlessly like a headless chicken waiting for the delays to be up while the ADC lifesteals back half or more of their health at in 1-2 seconds. Or hope the mage doesn't burst me for 1800+ damage near instantaneously while I'm dancing around trying to kill them. Or hope the mage's Zhonya's is on cool down because it completely deletes any assassination attempts if they use it correctly while sticking with their team. Or hope the carries are dumb enough to wander out by themselves into the enemy jungle and AFK for 3 seconds so I can kill them without them ruining it altogether just by themselves.

But yes, assassins are in a good spot, quite yes so.

Now would you mind AFKing for a few seconds so I can actually do my job? No? Okay, I'll go be a fancy siege minion and splitpush.

196 Comments

TequilaZombie48 votes

Hey we want bigger windows of reaction for enemy players. It's not good when they can get deleted in a short time frame with little to no way to fight back.

Annie

Ralanr13 votes

It's not like Annie has no escape mechanic and needs flash to make the most of her combo.

Melledoneus7 votes

Well, she doesn't have an escape mechanic, but she does have %damage reduction on her E and has a giant bear, and a stun...

She does need flash for her combo now... well, did...item 3152

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

If you're close enough as a squishy to be engaged in by an Annie with item 3152, you're more than likely going to be engaged by any tank on their team.

drakuIa4211 votes

flash + protobelt will get annie through the entire frontline.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Okkkaayyyyy but that's still with the use of flash. Not just Protobelt.

drakuIa4212 votes

so basically you have to accept the fact that annie will kill you everytime she has her flash up, unless you're a tank. and there's nothing you can do.

TequilaZombie8 votes

She also has 600 range on her AoE point and click instant stun burst. It's about 100 units, or one Teemo, smaller than the range of most Assassin's gap closers, with the advantage of not getting into melee range and exposing herself to retaliation.

Quort2 votes

Does that 600 include the radius of her Tibber's effect?

Cosmic Warper1 votes

{quoted}

Does that 600 include the radius of her Tibber's effect?

No, it's actually higher with the tibber's radius. It's somewhere around 900 range lol. This is why i don't understand why people love to make the argument about annie needing flash to initiate. Her ult has 900 fucking effective range...

TequilaZombie2 votes

Tibbers range is 290 units. You cannot put the center of Tibbers out of the 600 cast range. So, effectively, she has 600 + 290/2, or 745 Range on Tibbers. But then you will have to walk a bit to land your QW not that this would be a problem.

Sraeg20136 votes

That's 290 units in radius.

https://www.kirupa.com/canvas/images/yellow_circle_144.png

Annie's range with Tibbers IS IN FACT 890 units.

TequilaZombie4 votes

Wait, he covers 580 fucking units? Holy shit.

Rivuo4 votes

{quoted}

Every single assassin takes around 2-3s to kill a carry with their full combo, except Kha'Zix and Rengar.

And then LeBlanc and Katarina have strong damage, but the delays effectively make them mages instead of assassins

http://plays.tv/video/585873ffb8f16cca54/-?from=user

iLLp4 votes

{quoted}

http://plays.tv/video/585873ffb8f16cca54/-?from=user

ult gunblade thunderlords combo is what killed you

the problem in this game is more so items and keystones now i actually believe all champions in this game have shit damage now but are only good because of these things

Rivuo4 votes

[{quoted}](name=o f u c k,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fmiHmdGJ,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-12-24T19:42:22.918+0000)

ult gunblade thunderlords combo is what killed you

the problem in this game is more so items and keystones now i actually believe all champions in this game have shit damage now but are only good because of these things

Yes, Ult gunblade + thunderlords combo is what killed me

All staple items on Katarina, Gunblade is literally first item rush on her.

http://champion.gg/champion/Katarina

So............ That statement is false.

iLLp7 votes

{quoted}

Yes, Ult gunblade + thunderlords combo is what killed me

All staple items on Katarina, Gunblade is literally first item rush on her.

http://champion.gg/champion/Katarina

So............ That statement is false.

im saying itemization and keystones is the cause of some champions being broken now.

you just repeated what i said... katarina had to use tools OUTSIDE of her kit to be effective at her job. what is there to not understand here.

Rivuo4 votes

[{quoted}](name=o f u c k,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fmiHmdGJ,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-24T19:46:34.209+0000)

im saying itemization and keystones is the cause of some champions being broken now.

you just repeated what i said... katarina had to use tools OUTSIDE of her kit to be effective at her job. what is there to not understand here.

He said asssassins cant kill you instantly

I showed you they can.

Thats it, end of discussion.

Astôlfo29 votes

Katarina was complete full build with Rabadon's + Gunblade. You were a squishy at 80% health. She did around 57% of her damage with her passive. Around 27% was from Gunblade, around 15% was from TLD.

Yes, that's what happens when every single person is full build.

No, that's not relevant to the majority of the game.

Rivuo6 votes

{quoted}

Katarina was complete full build with Rabadon's + Gunblade. You were a squishy at 80% health. She did around 57% of her damage with her passive. Around 27% was from Gunblade, around 15% was from TLD.

Yes, that's what happens when every single person is full build.

No, that's not relevant to the majority of the game.

You said assassins cant 100-0 instantly.

I showed you they can.

Astôlfo24 votes

Anyone who builds damage at all could kill when they have every single item against a resistance-less squishy carry at 80% health at 48 minutes in. And no, it wasn't a 100-0. You had 1885 health total, but only 1513 the moment you started taking the damage. Katarina altogether did 1500. And almost 42% of the damage wasn't even from her kit.

Like I said, that's almost entirely meaningless because most games don't drag on that long and the whole point of an assassin is to function in early/mid.

And you were by yourself in lategame, which wasn't really helpable in the situational video you linked, but you still were, no one stopped Katarina, and so you died.

Ralanr6 votes

So assassins are meant to 100-0 instantly without a lot of items?

Troll for Trump22 votes

That's... what an assassin's supposed to do yes. 100-0 you when you're isolated, but not necessarily still 100-0 when you're grouped up unless they are super ahead.

But yes, even when they are even, they should be able to 100-0 isolated targets. They're assassins, they're suppose to do that.

It's like saying tanks that are 1/1/0 shouldn't be allowed to live more than 2 seconds.

NineTailedMystic8 votes

100-0 without being to outplay them? When they're advertised as this high skill, high risk, high reward class that requires outplaying their opponents, why are they not subject to being outplayed?

Troll for Trump1 votes

What? They are and always were. They're squishy and (most of them) need to get close to the target to do their dmg. That's the risk part. The reward is the 100-0. The high skill part is more accurately reflected with the modern assassins. Older assassins like Talon and Kat had skill, but it was distributed differently.

Modern standards have "skill" being found in how hard it is to pull off a combo. For instance, landing Ekko's W. The "skill" in Kat and Talon or Fizz, or many of the older assassins would be surviving laning phase. They are all super prone to bullying and gank (which they were). However, this was more of a "hidden" counterplay. Like how Riot used to add "hidden stats" in Singed/Vlad/hec/Ramm passives. It wasn't as clear-cut as to what you were supposed to do against them. Now, it's obvious what you need to do; dodge the skillshots, dodge circley indicators, dodge the Ekko time-trail-clone, etc.

Fast-forward to the reworks, now they have too much counterplay. The burst window is too large for most assassins to do their job properly; they can't 100-0 reliably within the window that Riot forcefully extended. They get outplayed too easily now.

What about ADCs? What's their counterplay? Stay out of AA range? Their dmg generally relies on autoattacking, and there is no counterplay at all to any of that.

Tell me the counterplay for ADCs.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

The "skill" in Kat and Talon or Fizz, or many of the older assassins would be surviving laning phase. whole paragraph

Yes, but the issue was that there was no counterplay in the moment. Kat Shunpo'd to you and unloaded her QEWR almost instantly. You either survived and probably killed her or died instantly. Talon blinked and deleted you or didn't and died.

There was nothing you could do once they were there, which was the issue. The exception to this is Zed which is why the Updates made their killing patterns more like him.

What about ADCs? What's their counterplay? Stay out of AA range? Their dmg generally relies on autoattacking, and there is no counterplay at all to any of that.

Tell me the counterplay for ADCs.

There isn't, which is another issue. Assassins may have been an evil prior, but ADCs weren't excused from their evil. Part A of having the new Assassins not be trash is reducing ADC burst and Lifesteal so that the Assassin can kill them without dying doing their job, because currently ADCs can just face tank the Assassin (excluding LB and Kat) and heal enough damage to not die while killing the Assassin first.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Yes, but the issue was that there was no counterplay in the moment. Kat Shunpo'd to you and unloaded her QEWR almost instantly. You either survived and probably killed her or died instantly. Talon blinked and deleted you or didn't and died. There was nothing you could do once they were there, which was the issue. The exception to this is Zed which is why the Updates made their killing patterns more like him.

But they Zed-ified(If that makes sense) all the champs too much. Zed's burst was delayed because of how his R worked, setting timers behind everything. That doesn't mean you should give every assassin some sort of gate-locking timer, that ends up being too slow for what an assassin should be doing.

Ok, what about Juggernauts, Tanks, and Mages. What are the counterplays for them?

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Ok, what about Juggernauts, Tanks, and Mages. What are the counterplays for them?

Juggernauts: Kiting. Otherwise if you get in their range, you probably lose unless you have disengage.

Tanks: Personally? I don't know. I've always struggled with pure Tanks. Kiting still, I guess?

Mages: Dodge the skillshots. Unless it's Syndra, then you die anyways if she hits R. Some of the more archaic designs like Annie involve staying out of their range, which is a bit inadequate for a Mage's counterplay imo.

But they Zed-ified(If that makes sense) all the champs too much. Zed's burst was delayed because of how his R worked, setting timers behind everything. That doesn't mean you should give every assassin some sort of gate-locking timer, that ends up being too slow for what an assassin should be doing.

Welcome to the issue. Instant 100-0s aren't healthy for the game, but Assassins can't do their job without dying due to the gating thus allowing hypercarries to run rampant. The solutions are currently: Give Assassins more survivability so they can finish the job they start without dying to the victim which pushes them towards bruiser or mage playstyles. Or reduce the Assassins gate on the timer which is likely to return them to the original issue.

SteelMankind2 votes

Would like to add that the majority of mages tend to have a single skillshot that, if hit, guarantees that the rest of their kit hits. Dodging this is often all you need to do when dueling a mage. Stuff like Xerath/Vel'Koz E, or Lux Q.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts: Kiting. Otherwise if you get in their range, you probably lose unless you have disengage.

Tanks: Personally? I don't know. I've always struggled with pure Tanks. Kiting still, I guess?

Mages: Dodge the skillshots. Unless it's Syndra, then you die anyways if she hits R. Some of the more archaic designs like Annie involve staying out of their range, which is a bit inadequate for a Mage's counterplay imo. That doesn't mean you should give every assassin some sort of gate-locking timer, that ends up being too slow for what an assassin should be doing.

Welcome to the issue. Instant 100-0s aren't healthy for the game, but Assassins can't do their job without dying due to the gating thus allowing hypercarries to run rampant. The solutions are currently: Give Assassins more survivability so they can finish the job they start without dying to the victim which pushes them towards bruiser or mage playstyles. Or reduce the Assassins gate on the timer which is likely to return them to the original issue.

Here is the real issue, lots of people playing assassins act like they're supposed to be able to dive enemy carries with the enemy support or tank around, then they fail and die only to cry saying that assassins suck because the 0,5 sec they had to deal damage before the tank bent the assassin over wasn't enough to kill the target.

RocketRelm3 votes

To be fair, when you build absolute, 100% full-tilt glass cannon, you should expect that. With even as minimal an investment as grabbing theFearless Mastery, Caitlyn coulda had 36 more MR (she had 42). Given Kat almost assuredly had a boatload of penetration, adding 30% ish functional HP, which when combined with if she'd been using Attack Move, would let her get a Full Build Crit off, which amongst other things includes life steal. These combined could let her Net out of range, and then Headshot Passive off the Net.

Caitlyn totally had counter play options there. She just didn't use them.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

New Kat, yes, has counterplay unless fed. Old Kat did not.

Mr Noggenfogger1 votes

Old Kat's counter play was any hard cc after she goes in

RavenMagus3 votes

Nah, old Kat would just kill you before you could land your hard CC. Especially if she timed her engage well. It typically required flash on her part to get close enough, but she'd end a teamfight on her own.

Penns10 votes

I get where youre coming from with that "assassins dont need to instakill to be assassins", but last time I checked its still called "assassinate", not "mageinate" lol.

Ralanr9 votes

And last I checked, being 100-0 without being able to react wasn't healthy gameplay.

Astôlfo6 votes

That would not be healthy gameplay. Good thing that's never ever been the case within the past few months/years.

Ralanr6 votes

That's a lie and you know it. That was one of the biggest assassin problems.

Astôlfo4 votes

Then quote me an example or link proof.

Stealth? Warding/pinks (pre-Assassin Update) Flanking? Warding Picking off solo people? Grouping Burst? Counterbuilding

NineTailedMystic7 votes

Mechanical counterplay? Nonexistent.

Penns6 votes

Assassins were trash already even when they could "100-0 people instantly", thats the thing. Also, tell that to mages, because Id argue doing the same thing with 600+ range isnt that healthy either.

If youre gonna make kill windows bigger, at least compensate us... What exactly did Fizz for example get to compensate for having to stay 2s in melee range before being able to do 600 damage late game, and losing all of his dps?

Ralanr2 votes

I'll agree that it looks like their kill windows were increased without much consideration in the kill windows of their targets at the time. I do believe that should be addressed.

Assassins have always been a feast and famine class that was hard to balance. Riot ended up making them easier to balance in the long term, with short term being pretty painful on them.

Penns5 votes

Just looking at Fizz, idk how they made him easier to balance at all. He literally has 1 combo combo left and 1 way to function, which is hitting a max range ult and then oneshotting that target. If he cant do that, he is garbage, if he can, everyone cries.

Ralanr3 votes

Because they gave him a more noticeable window of weakness. With something as powerful as his E, it's hard to justify giving him much kill power outside of his ult. Especially when it didn't matter if it was point blank.

I guess they could make his point blank up a bit stronger. Or decrease the range and lower the scaling damage (but buffing the base. So short range isn't terrible but long range is great) to make it a bit more reliable.

Penns2 votes

His window of weakness was when he missed his ult before the rework already, just that now its his window of uselessness and his W makes the first 2s of any trade a window of weakness lol.

Ralanr2 votes

So if he didn't miss his ult he had no window of weakness?

Wasn't he supposed to be weak before 6? Are you saying he had no window of weakness before 6?

Penns3 votes

Of course he had (tho Id say his laning is even worse now), but Im talking about 1v1ing him after 6.

NineTailedMystic5 votes

Also, tell that to mages, because Id argue doing the same thing with 600+ range isnt that healthy either.

Mages have to hit a vital skillshot most of the time. Ahri E, Lux Q, Brand Q, Anivia Q... Much easier to react to since it often isn't point blank.

Sure Assassins have a skillshot, but were almost impossible to miss in an all-in due to being point blank. Zed Q, Talon W, LeBlanc E...

Penns3 votes

And Fizz ult, which he is forced to hit from 1000+ range now?

NineTailedMystic5 votes

Riot defines Assassins as having "easier target selection". It's much easier to get to the ADC as Zed or LeBlanc than a Brand. It's just the current (and previous) issue is them dying when they get there.

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