Kat is so cancer to play against. She oppresses you so hard in lane, then snowballs and ends up carrying every teamfight. I feel like she needs to get a least a slight nerf, to make her more manageable in the laning phase.
Nameless Voice6 votesHer laning is already really weak outside of her level 2-3 all-in (just learn to expect that and play safe at that time), and another powerspike at level 6. Unless she can manage to zone away her enemy, she can barely farm without eating tons of poke or missing lots of CS.
I honestly don't get this one. Everyone complains about Kat and she has an insane ban rate, and yet all her abilities are heavily telegraphed, she has clear and obvious counterplay, and also clear strengths and weaknesses. I find her to be one of the most healthy and fair assassin champions to play against. What am I missing? Is it just because I've played her a lot since her rework that I understand exactly how to play against her?
Anyway, I just wrote a long list of tips on how to deal with her in another thread. Read those if you are having trouble with her.
YumaS2Astral1 votesUnless you have targeted spells or strong autos, I find it difficult to actually poke Kat, due to her Shunpo.
Nameless Voice2 votesThe trick is to poke her when she goes in to last-hit - she's melee, and so has to decide between taking damage or losing the minion by jumping away.
CrimsonDawn771 votesIt sounds like you know how to counter her well, while others don't, and that's a factor.
However, I think the problem is that she's more strong then she is counterable; or at least that's what I think based off my personal experience, and seeing people like Redmercy play her. She has a lot of damage even early so she's very punishing to play against if you make one mistake, and when your lower health then her you can't poke and zone her without being in lots of danger. If the Kat is good her daggers can zone you which counters poke. The problem with trying to counter the dagger's predictability factor is that doing so is a skill matchup with a bit of luck; its a weakness but a very contingent one. Also if you use your damage/cc/main threat and fail to predict her shunpo to her dagger then she's free to go ham if you get too close, so then she zones you and can cs easily. She's also fairly snowbally, even pre 6, meaning that if she kills you or you die from a gank this all becomes much more difficult. Her outplay potential with her shunpo reset is also so high that it is broken, which is why riot is nerfing it. I think what makes her broken is all these things together make her too much to deal with (in lane and throughout the game) often: burst, energy not mana, outplay potential, free escape with shunpo, zoning, 100-0 single target burst AND multi target burst, snowballing, good roams and enough dodging to teamfight well, and she's as good at cleaning up low health ppl as the old Kat. Kat can be almost as good at deleting a single target as talon, but has more dodges and resets. She also has 2-3 shunpos if she plays well, or maybe more if she gets a kill/assist. This rivals LeBlanc who only has 2 if she's going for max damage (W & return to W) or 4 if she ults her W but then LB has less damage; plus Kat can kill people faster then LB almost always. It's as if Kat is almost as good at shifting around and outplaying people as LB, unless LB gets a really good set up with her illusions.
What do you think? I'm curious to see if you think this is the case.
Nameless Voice2 votesI think that the two-Shunpo all-in at level 2 and her three-Shunpo all-in at level 3 are a little unfair to play against and that's one of the big reasons why people don't like playing against her. It feels unfair when she does that, and you feel insanely punished if she gets a slight level lead since you basically have to back off completely and miss lots of CS until you catch up in levels.
The problem is that apart from that early all-in, Katarina has a truly awful level 1 and in general has a fairly poor early game in terms of trying to farm. It's super-easy to zone her away from your minions and force her to be in a position where she feels at an unfair disadvantage and has to miss lots of CS.
So, I think they should do something to reduce her early all-in damage, since that's the cheese people hate, but I don't think her actual power level is wrong, so they'll probably need to give her some kind of compensation buff in another area in return - maybe a buff to help her early laning/farming when she isn't able to bully the enemy in order to farm any more. Maybe increase her tankiness sightly?
tl;dr: Balanced but has some annoying mechanics, maybe rearrange some power to make her feel fairer.
NineTailedMystic3 votesKat's laning is just too strong with the snowball potential she has. Even after the update, if she's even remotely fed, she has no issues deleting squishies before they can use her new counterplay, and even then she can outplay their counterplay due to not exactly knowing where her E will take her since she can E anywhere within a 360 around the target champion or dagger.
Just reduce her base stats or remove the E AA reset and she'll be much better.
VoraciousX4 votesKat's laning is just too strong with the snowball potential she has. Even after the update, if she's even remotely fed, she has no issues deleting squishies before they can use her new counterplay, and even then she can outplay their counterplay due to not exactly knowing where her E will take her since she can E anywhere within a 360 around the target champion or dagger.
Just reduce her base stats or remove the E AA reset and she'll be much better.
So what you're saying is that Katarina should get shit on by a 2/5 ADC that hasn't built any magic resists when she's 5/2. That makes sense....
Theres nerfs for her on the PBE.
Being a kat main myself, yeah she could get some nerfs. I'd prefer see a shift from her early game power going to her late game if anything. Like daggers falling faster later into the game. She can run into issues in teamfights that didn't exist pre-rework.
Any Kat nerf that is more than just a slight nerf, should come with
nerfs for the sake of all assassins. This summoner spell wasn't such a big issue when enemies died before reaction time.
If they actually nerf her magic damage with no compensation I'd say that's kinda bad. Even buying a maw completely hurts her and any AP assassin really unless she's like 7/2. Pretty sure that's WHY people have been building AD/tank builds, to get around that problem. I normally try to play AP Kat, but if I see they're starting to build a hexdrinker early I immediately shift into AD tanky build because I know I'm going to be useless otherwise. If they wanna nerf AD tank Kat slightly, I'm fine with that, because it kind of is a disgusting build, but it's built to counteract the uselessness of AP vs MR. I personally believe the only time people actually think Kat is broken, they're like level 12 while Katarina is level 15 with one or two items up on them, or misplayed horribly.
NineTailedMystic1 votesSo what you're saying is that Katarina should get shit on by a 2/5 ADC that hasn't built any magic resists when she's 5/2. That makes sense....
Good job, putting words into my mouth. In your scenario, Kat shouldn't die unless she seriously misplays, but the ADC should have the opportunity to not die given the goal of the Assassin Update, but will likely die without even having Kat proc a dagger once.
I was saying that a 5/0 Kat vs a 5/0 squishy, the squishy probably won't be able to not die without burning at least a summoner.
Nameless Voice2 votesOf course an assassin should win 1v1 fights against other squishies. That's the entire point of an assassin. If they couldn't, then there would be no point in picking her at all.
NineTailedMystic1 votesI'd say the existence of the Assassin Update says that the squishy should have the opportunity to win or escape if they play it right.
Unvictus1 votesYea, don't stand on daggers. And Kat should be rewarded if SHE plays it right by setting herself up correctly. Goes both ways.
NineTailedMystic1 votesAnd if you read the comment chain, you'd see that if a 5/0 kat fights a 5/0 squishy, she'll still probably demolish the squishy with maybe hitting one dagger.
VoraciousX2 votesAnd if you read the comment chain, you'd see that if a 5/0 kat fights a 5/0 squishy, she'll still probably demolish the squishy with maybe hitting one dagger.
Not true about the one dagger thing. One dagger when fed would do about 75% of a squishy's hp. That's with both q and e and passive. That's also without any mr.
As for Katarina's range around daggers, most skillshot cc is wide enough that it will hit Kat anyways. You don't have to aim your cc perfectly, moreso Kat needs to shunpo perfectly to dodge it. The most skillful dodging I've done with shunpo is blink behind a Vi that was Qing me.
Sraeg20132 votesWhat he's saying she shouldn't automatically win a lane of a single kill for how absurd of a snowball potential and unpredictable for enemies she is, on top of being able to actively poke and wave clear with zero trade-off.
Unvictus1 votesUnpredictable? You can see where daggers will land and the Q dagger ALWAYS lands 350 units behind the initial target. But I guess that means unpredictable.
Sraeg20132 votesNo, I mean she can choose to blink anywhere around the target or dagger, unlike pretty much every other targeted blink/dash ability in the game, which makes it very hard to land anything on that blinking bitch, even if you time it perfectly.
Cocho1 votesIn the laning phase, there is a delay before she can jump again after picking up a dagger.
The trick is to throw it in this time, after she jumps, not trying to predict where she will jump.
Level 1 its 2.2 seconds. Level 6 its 1.6 seconds. If she E's to her Q dagger, then Ws, its 1.5 seconds at least.
Plus the 0.075 sec cast time on shunpo.
During this time is where you would throw out something like a lux snare.
Sraeg20131 votesPlus the 0.075 sec cast time on shunpo.
75ms. That is a third of an average reaction time of an athlete and 6ms longer than the average delay between my PC and the server.
You really want to play this game? Fine.
The trick is to throw it in this time, after she jumps, not trying to predict where she will jump.
Level 1 its 2.2 seconds. Level 6 its 1.6 seconds. If she E's to her Q dagger, then Ws, its 1.5 seconds at least.
So between the fact she can blink anywhere around the target, the fact she basically exclusively starts with boots, the fact my PC isn't directly connected to the server, that I have a reaction time and that my abilities have delays and cast times...
No.
Nameless Voice2 votesKatarina can be frustrating to play against, and can snowball lanes quite hard, but she's not actually strong in terms of win rate.
They can't outright nerf her. Simply reducing her base stats will just make her very weak and unplayable. What they can do is shift her power around to be less frustrating to deal with, taking power away from one area to add to another.
Unvictus1 votesHer daggers zoning you is hardly an argument. There are champs that have consistent zone, meanwhile her daggers are temporary. Orianna can keep her ball in your minions and zone you for days, and Annie can keep her stun for forever and zone you from creeps.
CrimsonDawn771 votesdid you read my whole post? I said that the reason why Kat is so broken atm is that she's very strong in terms of damage, and snowball; while she also has many other things going for her such as zoning. It's the zoning in combination with everything else that is a large part of the problem. Annie I agree is a little broken. Ori is a ranged mage that has a lot of power in lane because of her zonging, but pays for it by not having that great cc or a reliable escape (aside from her ult).
Unvictus2 votesI did actually. Thanks for asking tho. I agree her laning is strong, but like I said zoning with Q dagger is hardly part of the reason. I know you said it's in combination with everything else, but the zoning is such a small percentage of the reason her laning is strong. And when I play her or against her I don't feel that Q dagger has that much of an impact. Maybe it's because I play her, but a lot of times I find myself saying "jump to that dagger I dare you". Annie and Ori can zone better, I gave those two as examples because they are good against kat in the landing phase for that reason. If kat wants to jump to daggers she risks getting hit with and Annie stun if it's up, or a Q W auto + thunderlords from Ori. She is still a melee champ after all so she still has to walk in to auto for cs, unless she wants to use q, but then she will be using it to farm and not to trade. I also wouldn't say that Ori doesn't have that great cc the slow on her W is pretty good, and her ult is one of the best AOE cc abilities in the game, especially in the hands of a good Ori player. Like I said I do agree her laning is strong, possibly too strong (hence the shunpo nerfs on the PBE) but from my experience playing as and against her, her zoning from Q dagger seems very irrelevant in terms of her total laning strength.
CrimsonDawn771 votesAllow me to clarify, I think the daggers zoning you is an issue, even if it's only an occasional problem and not comparatively that significant, because it takes pressure off of her early. It's easy to zone her somewhat, but it's difficult to zone her enough to put her seriously behind before she hits her power spike. If you make one mistake this is even more so the case as now you are in danger of getting bursted. Her potions give her a fair bit of sustain so it's already difficult to poke out a good Kat. If you are even zoned occasionally for a bit you lose pressure on her and potentially lose the pressure needed to push her out of lane etc. Even that small difference can set you up with an item advantage so you can put her behind; or her daggers may stop that. You can go to the opposite side of the lane where her dagger isn't but a good kat will probably try to have the dagger land on the side you have warded; so you may feed her some easy kills with the assistance of her jungler if you do so.
I play Ori and based off of me feeding off of a Kat recently I agree that she's a counter, but other mages etc can struggle to pressure her enough, and the daggers may tip the balance in Kat's favor.
Ori's slow isn't that good compared to other mages imo, many mages have long duration roots etc. Q W sometimes isn't enough to stop many assassins or divers from getting on top of you. It will sometimes only delay them getting onto you. You can use her w to speed you and then hope they will walk over it but some ppl can blink over it etc. Her ult is godly, but you typically don't want to use it just to peel for yourself because one enemy is on you. Because of this Ori's roaming safety and ability to recover from being out of position is less then other mages, which balances out her monstrous laning phase, aoe damage, and ultimate that wins you 5v5s if you use it well.
Nameless Voice2 votesWhy should Katarina have so much pressure on her during her early-game?
She's melee. She's zoned by default just because you can attack her from range every time she wants to last-hit.
What is her having such a bad time in lane supposed to be a trade-off for? Her late-game? She's not a hyper-carry, her win rate drops the longer games go on for. If you want her early game to be terrible, and her late-game to be poor, at what point is she actually supposed to be strong at?
Of course, she is manaless, which justifies her having a weaker than normal first few levels (especially 1-4), which she currently does not have due to the 3-hop all-in - which it looks like Riot are looking into addressing (though it appears that the current E nerf will likely be reverted.)
CrimsonDawn772 votesShe should be weaker then she currently is early on because she's the most overloaded assassin atm in terms of what she's good at. If she's that good, there has to be a drawback.
She has strong 100-0 burst especially if snowballing even a little bit, so she is a great roamer. She also has tons of AOE and cooldown resets that allow her to dance around your team and kill you all if you are low health; just like before the rework. She now has TONS of outplay potential 1v1, possibly split pushing, and in lane. If the Kat is decent and is even or a bit ahead she's good in team fights as well. She has so much aoe damage that she contributes lots to teamfights and has survivability through dodging and re positioning; she can atleast live long enough to unload tons of damage. She is kind of bad when behind, but that's the case for all assassins and most snowbally champs. Plus with her resets and burst she does have the ability to grab double/triple kills at the end of fights to get back into the game. All this depends on the team comps in part, but the potential for it all is definitely there and accessible to a decent Kat most of the time.
Because of all this she is also probably the most hypercarry like assassin, just like Yasuo can carry hard because he has so much damage and outplay potential even though he's not technically a teamfight champ. It's not very difficult for Kat to get ahead enough to be good late game, especially early into the late game, as her aoe and resets can get her lots of kills in teamfights. She can do so in average games, it doesn't only happen in games when your team feeds Kat lots. Not to mention if Kat does get truly fed, and gets 
, or has a team that protects her, it's almost impossible to win against to the point where it's like going up against a Christmas dinner level fed 
.
Nameless Voice2 votesI'd consider her to have the least 100-0 burst of all of the reworked assassins.
It takes her a long time to unload that amount of damage unless she's really fed, and late-game an ADC can often out-duel her so long as they don't eat her full ultimate.
Old Katarina was much better at 100-0ing someone, because most of her damage output was instant. There really was nothing you could do against her if she got fed.
VoraciousX2 votesShe should be weaker then she currently is early on because she's the most overloaded assassin atm in terms of what she's good at. If she's that good, there has to be a drawback.
She has strong 100-0 burst especially if snowballing even a little bit, so she is a great roamer. She also has tons of AOE and cooldown resets that allow her to dance around your team and kill you all if you are low health; just like before the rework. She now has TONS of outplay potential 1v1, possibly split pushing, and in lane. If the Kat is decent and is even or a bit ahead she's good in team fights as well. She has so much aoe damage that she contributes lots to teamfights and has survivability through dodging and re positioning; she can atleast live long enough to unload tons of damage. She is kind of bad when behind, but that's the case for all assassins and most snowbally champs. Plus with her resets and burst she does have the ability to grab double/triple kills at the end of fights to get back into the game. All this depends on the team comps in part, but the potential for it all is definitely there and accessible to a decent Kat most of the time.
Because of all this she is also probably the most hypercarry like assassin, just like Yasuo can carry hard because he has so much damage and outplay potential even though he's not technically a teamfight champ. It's not very difficult for Kat to get ahead enough to be good late game, especially early into the late game, as her aoe and resets can get her lots of kills in teamfights. She can do so in average games, it doesn't only happen in games when your team feeds Kat lots. Not to mention if Kat does get truly fed, and gets
Kat has lots of AOE damage in teamfights? You mean daggers that you can't position the way you want because people are always moving, unless the enemy is running away and an ability that drops a dagger on top of you meaning you have to literally be in the MIDDLE of the teamfight for a full second before it activates? Also if she can kill people who are low while ahead, then she's doing what she's supposed to do. An Ahri could get a triple kill on a group of people in a line if she used a Q. A Zilean could get a triple kill on a group of enemies if they were all low. A Brand could as well. At what point is this making Katarina too strong, considering all of those champions also have CC? If a champion is low and stands near a Katarina dagger or tries to run away from her in range of Katarina to Q them, they deserve to die unless they flash, exhaust, whatever. Katarina LITERALLY has to be right next to you to do ANY damage. I can't think of any other mages that have literally no damage without being smack dab in the middle of a teamfight while still being squishy as all hell, begging you to blow them up. The only way a Katarina is going to do anything useful in a teamfight is if everyone on the enemy team has no CC, or she is fed to hell, and even if she's fed to hell she can be blown up without playing carefully. My guess is 99% of the time you had a Katarina blow your team up in a teamfight, you used all your CC on someone else and she went in afterwards, which is what she's supposed to do, because you didn't save your CC for the biggest threat(who was likely fed as well).
Late game when everyone is grouped up is where Kat suffers the most. you really can only kill one person at a time unless they're low health or all the squishies are grouped together, or the whole team is squishy and even then your burst is delayed so you'll likely be chain CCed after you half health a few, and every champion in the game bar a few(who all seem to have problems or are ADCs and shouldn't have hard CC) have some form of hard CC to ruin her day. If the team is protecting the Katarina, it'd be the same as if they were protecting someone else that was fed out their ass. They'd be there to ruin your day if they had the protection they needed to thrive.
CrimsonDawn771 votesThe problem is that her resets allow her to do her basic abilities and sometimes ult multiple times. Zilean, Ahri and Brand cannot do that. If she kills one low health person with her aoe damage she gets to do that aoe damage again even to people who arn't low health. The resets+aoe are quite powerful and there needs to be more counterbalance.
Using CC on Kat isn't easy if the Kat is good. She can dodge it often and thrives unless you aren't tightly grouped for every second. Have you watched high elo players use Kat? The outplay potential is immense, and the problem isn't necessarily limited to high elo, as even low elo Kats can have solid mechanics. Needing to get close, and vulnerability to cc doesn't necessarily mean the champ is balanced, its more complex then that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkOfYcgR9aM @ 3:26 (Pants are Dragon is a challenger player if you don't know him) "so Katarina is in high elo a very op champion. She's like usually 100% banned or picked, just because of how obnoxious she can be in team fights, and how much damage she does. Honestly she does so much damage and those daggers provide a lot of zoning, otherwise ofcourse aoe damage, and ya i mean holy..."
RedMercy who is pretty much becoming a Kat main also says she's broken, if you look at his Kat vids you will see what he has to say.
VoraciousX1 votesThe problem is that her resets allow her to do her basic abilities and sometimes ult multiple times. Zilean, Ahri and Brand cannot do that. If she kills one low health person with her aoe damage she gets to do that aoe damage again even to people who arn't low health. The resets+aoe are quite powerful and there needs to be more counterbalance.
You mean Brand whose damage is much easier to use and has cc can't do that? Zilean actually has close enough cooldowns and cc to be similar. His ult maybe not though but it's I changing. All the have cc and very strong as well. You can't compare. Kat is strong but she needs those resets to make up for what she lacks in:utility. She is more focused on kills than the rest.
Using CC on Kat isn't easy if the Kat is good. She can dodge it often and thrives unless you aren't tightly grouped for every second. Have you watched high elo players use Kat? The outplay potential is immense, and the problem isn't necessarily limited to high elo, as even low elo Kats can have solid mechanics. Needing to get close, and vulnerability to cc doesn't necessarily mean the champ is balanced, its more complex then that.
Ryze would like to argue with you on landing cc on Kat. You could also just wait for her to land on a dagger. That's where she's gonna end up 99% of the time. Again she needs outplay potential because she has no utility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkOfYcgR9aM
@ 3:26 (Pants are Dragon is a challenger player if you don't know him) "so Katarina is in high elo a very op champion. She's like usually 100% banned or picked, just because of how obnoxious she can be in team fights, and how much damage she does. Honestly she does so much damage and those daggers provide a lot of zoning, otherwise ofcourse aoe damage, and ya i mean holy..."
RedMercy who is pretty much becoming a Kat main also says she's broken, if you look at his Kat vids you will see what he has to say.
I'd like you to look at almost every champion reveal or rework reveal video red has. He says everyone is op. He originally said WW rework wasn't op but then changed his mind. It's become a meme at this point on the yt comment section of his videos. And I've seen Box Box playing Kat. I've also seen him demolish Kats. Not to mention Box Box doesn't like easy wins hence times where he tries to even games out or surrenders as they're about to win. He even objected to the edge system for Riven because he said it would make her too strong. So if Kat is so overpowered why would he be playing her so much? Also if even lower elo players are dominating with her and she's too op why not abusing the freelo? Nvm immobile adc main. I get it.
CrimsonDawn771 votesFirst of all I'd appreciate it if you would have the maturity to not resort to ad hominems. "Nvm immobile adc main. I get it." League boards shouldn't be a toxic place, and you should be able to discuss things without personal attacks.
Actually Jhin is incredibly strong in the middle of the team and also has great range, I don't have a problem with dying to Kat when I play Jhin, because it's usually my fault if she's on top of me. It's when I play mid or when when my mid laner feeds her that I have the problem with her.
I'm not arguing categorically against Kat having the outplay potential that she does, or anything else she has. I'm just saying that she's overtuned in various ways atm given everything she has.
Annie, Ryze etc point and click cc is a counter, but your team doesn't necessarily always have much point and click cc. A good Kat can also often wait for most of the cc or damage to be used so there isn't enough cc and damage to burst her. Or if your team holds onto their cc too long they will lose to Kat's teammates. Then there's also zhonyas etc.There's more counterplay to point and click cc as well. You can't use a hard counter as a measure of whether or not a champion is balanced. Yasuo and Zed also get destroyed by it, but they have been truly very op and had ridiculous winrates. You can find very good players outskilling or using counters to crush many champs, that doesn't reflect general game balance at high or low elo. You could make those types of arguments about any op champ. eg Syndra in the height of her power is balanced cuz she can get her abilities dodged and then get instakilled.
Red might exadurate a bit on how op new champs are, but it's also true that new champs have been pretty op with the exception of Ivern pre-buffs. A lot of the champs he called op got nerfed remember. He is an assassin main, and a quite good one at that. At daimond 1 elo his opinion certainly has a lot of credibility.
How about Pants? is his opinion as a challenger level player who also talks to/is in games with other challenger players all the time not credible? Do you think that the top 200 players in north america are misguided when they almost always pick or ban kat?
VoraciousX1 votesFirst of all I'd appreciate it if you would have the maturity to not resort to ad hominems. "Nvm immobile adc main. I get it." League boards shouldn't be a toxic place, and you should be able to discuss things without personal attacks.
Actually Jhin is incredibly strong in the middle of the team and also has great range, I don't have a problem with dying to Kat when I play Jhin, because it's usually my fault if she's on top of me. It's when I play mid or when when my mid laner feeds her that I have the problem with her.
I'm not arguing categorically against Kat having the outplay potential that she does, or anything else she has. I'm just saying that she's overtuned in various ways atm given everything she has.
Annie, Ryze etc point and click cc is a counter, but your team doesn't necessarily always have much point and click cc. A good Kat can also often wait for most of the cc or damage to be used so there isn't enough cc and damage to burst her. Or if your team holds onto their cc too long they will lose to Kat's teammates. Then there's also zhonyas etc.There's more counterplay to point and click cc as well. You can't use a hard counter as a measure of whether or not a champion is balanced. Yasuo and Zed also get destroyed by it, but they have been truly very op and had ridiculous winrates. You can find very good players outskilling or using counters to crush many champs, that doesn't reflect general game balance at high or low elo. You could make those types of arguments about any op champ. eg Syndra in the height of her power is balanced cuz she can get her abilities dodged and then get instakilled.
Red might exadurate a bit on how op new champs are, but it's also true that new champs have been pretty op with the exception of Ivern pre-buffs. A lot of the champs he called op got nerfed remember. He is an assassin main, and a quite good one at that. At daimond 1 elo his opinion certainly has a lot of credibility.
How about Pants? is his opinion as a challenger level player who also talks to/is in games with other challenger players all the time not credible? Do you think that the top 200 players in north america are misguided when they almost always pick or ban kat?
You just called Zed OP, when he isn't even on the face of the earth hardly anymore because of all the things they've done to him because of his being "anti fun", so why would I believe you for Katarina? He's okay, but not OP. As for Pants, I've heard he only plays what is OP at the time, so if he's abusing Katarina and winning almost every game then maybe I'll give him a small recognition. As for Katarina's counters, I've mentioned thousands and thousands of times how to beat her without point and click CC, but you just won't accept anything that isn't a hard counter, which is why I listed hard counters. If you're not able to land CC on an enemy that literally tells you where she's going to be 3 seconds in advance, and can't back out for 3-4 seconds at early levels, then I gave you other options because you simply wouldn't listen to the original ones, or believe that it's impossible for whatever reason. I might also mention Lux, and Morgana's Qs are both likely wide enough to hit her no matter WHERE she lands on a target. It's not like they're some thin line that's impossible to hit. They have extremely forgiving hitboxes. If Katarina's damage is nerfed, she'll go into unplayable territory simply because as of right now it takes her a lot of time to set up a kill in a teamfight, and if she manages to pull off that kill she's likely gonna get stunlocked and die. If she manages to after all the CC, then she should be rewarded for waiting out that CC, not instantly made to lose because she doesn't have the damage to kill someone when she's 10/2 and the enemy team is mostly 2/8.
As for what I said about you being an immobile ADC main, the amount of bias you had towards Kat was enough proof without me finding out you were actually an immobile ADC main. I "resorted to that" because I now know there's no point in even arguing with you because you're not going to listen to anything that's being said. You weren't listening before and you're not now. I just know better now, and this is the last I'm probably gonna say on the subject.
CrimsonDawn771 votes"Yasuo and Zed also get destroyed by it, but they have been truly very op and had ridiculous winrates." I wasn't calling Zed op. I said he was op, and he was. There are other options to balance her besides nerfing her damage.
Anyways, I reported you for being offense so riot can clean this sort of thing out of boards so boards is a place where people can actually debate without being subject to immature personal attacks and derogatory ways of speaking.
NineTailedMystic3 votesenergy not mana
Kat is resourceless, not Energy.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesWhat use is it when she still gets fed by roaming because noone notices they have a minimap or wards or sound for pings, builds gunblade and GA and melts your entire team in 3 seconds jumping around like crazy and so fast you can't even fucking click her.
Nameless Voice12 votesGetting fed by roaming because your teammates ignore pings is not Katarina's fault. Almost any champion can do that.
Unvictus3 votes^ this
MrHaZeYo3 votes
Do fine against her in lane.
Troll for Trump22 votescounterpick is never counterplay
VoraciousX4 votescounterpick is never counterplay
The counterplay, as I've said, is to actually jump on her levels 1-3, as those are her weakest. she can't shunpo back fast enough to escape your damage once she goes in at those levels(that's why I play safer until levels 5-6). The counterpicking just makes Katarina miserable and unable to do anything.
[{quoted}](name=Overlord Forte,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=faUQfq2b,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2017-01-16T07:22:31.265+0000)
I've debated between damage nerfs or nerfing her Shunpo to a hard 1-2 second cooldown floor. Damage favors dealing with her laning phase, while the shunpo hard CD floor stops her from exploding in team fights without triggering her passive in proper. So far I lean toward the shunpo nerf the most, as controlling Katarina in team fights without a kill-locked passive is just inviting all the old problems she was nerfed in the first place for.
New Kat in teamfights is not spectacular. It's not anywhere near old Kat level damage and you have to carefully choose your targets and plan ahead. They nerfed her old W damage and put it more into her ultimate which is channeled. Nerfing her cooldown resets would make it impossible for her to do her job. If you nerfed her mobility, this is what would happen in a teamfight. She'd Q>E in, pick up a dagger, and if she was fed she'd do about half health to a squishy, and then explode.If she managed to last enough to pick up 2, she might kill her target and die at the same time. In no situation can I imagine her surviving in a teamfight if you nerfed the cooldowns on her E. She already has high chances of dying when she goes in fed now, but at least she can usually take someone down with her. They're nerfing parts of her for ONE reason, because tank AD Kat is a thing, not because AP Kat is OP. I've already had situations where I was fed and a Cait was fed and she killed me before I actually got any damage off on her. Don't try to make it where even if an ADC isn't fed they're gonna 1v1 an assassin without being able to be touched.
Troll for Trump3 votesThe counterplay, as I've said, is to actually jump on her levels 1-3, as those are her weakest.
That's been her counterplay pre-rework as well. The problem is that she can just stay in the back(starts with boots + 4 pots), and, since she has no mana, she just spam farms with her abilities, and you can't dmg her unless you're diving. If you're a mage, you have a crowd of minions, are still somewhat prone to creepblock, and you can actually get punished at lvl 3 for trying to bully her (if you don't bully her, she begins scaling).
RlP K0BE2 votes
Why was this downvoted lol. When I play Kat I absolutely hate facing any of these champions in lane. Especially . is bearable.
MrHaZeYo2 votesBearable, but not fun lol.
Sraeg20131 votesSyndra doesn't even come close to "doing fine" against Katarina.
It was hard before, now it's an absolute cesspool of an experience.
Syndra gets out-farmed, out-poked, out-bursted and out-DPS'd, and the best part she may never actually land any of her basic spells, because of how unpredictable Katarina's "dagger" Shunpo is.
MrHaZeYo2 votesI've never once been out farmed by a Kat as Syn lol. I rarly lose that match up as her only true deadly move is her ult, you can just hold your E for that. You can easily out trade a Kat with Syn. If anything its a skill match up that I feel goes towards Syn.
Sraeg20131 votesYou got lucky then, because all statistics I could find clearly show that, Katarina is a losing matchup for Syndra.
The exact numbers vary, becase rarely two websites are using exactly the same sample sizes from the same regions at the same ELO, but the trend is there.
As per Champion.gg Katarina is Syndra's 4th worse matchup stat-wise along with a 48.3% winrate.
As per Matchup.gg Katarina is Syndra's 1st worse matchup by a tremendous margin with 65.5% success rate in lane for Katarina.
As per LoLKing most common matchups Syndra's averages 47.63% winrate as Katarina's 6th most common matchup in Plat. Hell, in Master+ it's almost exactly the same at 47.59%.
