Is it reasonable to banter with the enemy to try and make them tilt, as long as you aren't a jerk?

The Sword Saint··6 votes·1,917 views

For example: If you're I'm teemo and everytime someone steps on a shroom and die randomly when no enemies are around (such as a random bush or something), is it ok to for me to /all "How do they keep falling for that?"

It's the kind of thing that's intended to try and tilt them into making bad decisions over time, but isn't really toxic in anyway.

As Fiora, parry someone who dives you to stun them and kill them while getting away with a tiny amount of hp: /all "one step ahead"

As Lucien, suddenly dash out of a bush and finish off someone with a sideways ult: /all "drive by muthafukka"

Snipe someone to death who's recalling with a gangpank ult: /all "yohoho"

Just banter that's meant to rile people up. Is that frowned upon by the community?

66 Comments

Smegma1237 votes

It's unsportsmanlike.

The Sword Saint1 votes

If I say 'get dunked' after killing someone with darius in his basketball skin, that's unsportsmanlike? What's the all chat for then? Might as well replace it with a 'quiet, respectable golf clap' button.

Smegma1231 votes

All chat is for talking to the enemy team. Within this broad area of "talking to the enemy team", there are different categories of things you can say. One category is "unsportsmanlike stuff".

The Sword Saint1 votes

There has to be a definition of 'unsportsmanlike stuff' for it to have any meaning. There has to be a clear line.

"Did you see that sick play I just did? Youtube time."

"I'm all about that dive, no doublekill"

"You might need to talk to an eye doctor, you're missing a lot of those last hits"

"Wow I'm doing a zilean damage"

etc. are all things that could annoy someone and push them over the edge, but are they 'unsportsmanlike'?

1011001110001 votes

Unsportsmanlike conduct is a term used to broadly define an array of actions or statements that break the rules of expected conduct by the participants.

This almost always includes verbal abuse, and actions such as taunting with the intention of hindering their play (making them tilt) will generally be considered unsportsmanlike in nature, depending on its severity.

The Sword Saint1 votes

That doesn't work though. Sirlin explained this in his book: if you set a rule like this then people will keep trying to come as close as possible to violating the rule without actually doing it as long as doing this grants any kind of advantage. As such, some rules simply cannot be reasonably enforced, or expected to be adhered to except in the most extreme cases.

An example in a shooting game would be a ban on 'camping'. If you define camping as sitting in one spot for 10 minutes, people will sit in one spot for 9 minutes 59 seconds and then move. So long as the tactic has any benefit, people will try and come as close as possible without actually breaking the rules.

Hell, we do it all the time with game mechanics. Anytime we use a spell with barely enough mana or use a spell right off cooldown we are trying to come as close as physically possible to breaking the rules without actually doing so. However in this case there is at least a solid line - the mana or the cooldown - that can be easily restricted by the software. In the case of what kind of taunting is allowed, there is no such line. All we have to go in is that the extreme cases of racial slurs and such are off the table. Especially on the softer end that includes things like a simple 'lol' after the enemy does something dumb, the line is incredibly blurry.

1011001110001 votes

Want my take on it? To start, you can't compare taunting to game mechanics. Pushing the limits on abilities, cooldown management, with a small margin of error, isn't you "getting as close to breaking the rules as possible", but rather you maximizing your total output and performing at the most competitive level you can. Using a spell to escape knowing full well that you had narrowly missed death is an example of one's given skill and their limits, and all the mechanical restrictions set in place are riggedly defined (by spaghetti code) and agreed upon by the players.

Taunting someone with the expressed purpose of forcing them to tilt is extremely underhanded in a competitive environment. You're trying to get someone frustrated to the point of sub-par play for the sake of winning, and you're simply trying to cover your ass by saying "I wasn't a jerk, so you can't punish me", even though you know fully well what your intent was. This isn't to say anyone could just punish you for having a malicious intent, but if you really think the issue here isn't the fact that you intend on being an ass, then there's a bigger problem.

At the point where you resort to trying to make people tilt, you're not playing to compete against others and improve yourself, you're simply playing to win. That completely contradicts the spirit of a competitive game.

The Sword Saint1 votes

That's funny, Sirlins book is specifically about 'playing to win'. http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

Also, how is trying to tilt someone from words any different from repeatedly diving one guy to try and ruin his game? How is it different from constantly invading the enemies jungle even if it's not the best way to spend you time just to piss him off and waste his energy? How is it different from scumbag teemo blinding nasus every time he goes for a cannon minion just to fuck with his satisfaction of stacking his q? How is it different from zed spamming his taunt emote to piss you off when he has more gold than you and you know you can't fight him so it's super frustrating?

1011001110001 votes

Point by point then:

  1. Repeated diving to ruin someone's game - If you're diving someone to kill them, which is the point of the game, then what's there to it? You counterpicked them at champion select and have a lane advantage, so go ahead and press it, play at your best. Do you mean ruin their game to make them feel like shit? Just beating them alone doesn't accomplish that, you would have to communicate that to them.

  2. Jungle invasion - A legitimate, though normally not optimal strategy, in which you go out of your way to to interfere with an enemy jungler's scaling and farm. Will they get mad? Probably, no jungler enjoys being invaded. But they're getting mad because you're strategizing and playing against them to keep them behind statistically.

  3. Because that's exactly why Teemo is a Nasus counterpick. Using your abilities to try and delay a champion's powercurve is one of the things you do to try and get an edge on the enemy, and Teemo does this by blinding Nasus and slowing down his Siphoning stacks.

  4. That's actually not really all that different. Tilting through communication with the enemy is what you're trying to do, and repeatedly spamming taunt simply because you're ahead by a huge amount is practically done with the express purpose of tilting as well.

Don't confuse playing the game to get a lead on your opponent for intentionally trying to tilt someone. If someone's denying you farm, it's not because they're trying to get you to tilt, but because they're playing their best to beat you.

IcyPepper1 votes

If I say 'get dunked' after killing someone with darius in his basketball skin, that's unsportsmanlike?

If you have that skin, the enemy team is likely going to take that as a joke. If you overdo it and they ask you to stop (the first time is testing the waters), then stop.

Also, it's "GET DUNKED" >.<

Baseball3b2 votes

It's just trash talking though. It happens in nearly every sport.

Of course, there's a fine line you shouldn't cross, but I don't see any issue whatsoever with trash talk

Smegma1231 votes

It happens, but its still unsportsmanlike. I don't particularly care if they do it to me, that's their wish, but I don't ever do it and I try to stop my team from doing it too.

Baseball3b1 votes

I guess I have a different view of it since I've been an athlete all my life. To me, it's natural, and it's not unsportsmanlike at all, because at the end of the day, you still respect the guy on the other team, not to mention a lot of the shit talking is tongue in cheek. Hell, I was in a game of pick up full contact football the other day, railroaded a defensive back for a 40 yard TD as a RB and I was shitting on him all game. Little while later he lays me flat and does the same thing. I suppose that's one of the issues with being an online game though--you can't really detect sarcasm.

50000000000000005 votes

How can you tilt them if you're not being a jerk?

The Sword Saint1 votes

It's not hard. You say something light hearted with timing that would annoy someone, then when they respond back you just say 'its' just a joke man, chill' or something. 9/10 that's only going to make them more upset. There's a lot of room for creativity without needing to directly throw around curse words and wish death upon people's mothers.

IcyPepper1 votes

9/10 that's only going to make them more upset

That's kind of being a jerk, bro.

Banter is when they participate in it, and it's fun! Good banter isn't one-sided, and you don't just shrug it off then they respond so they get even more pissed off. This isn't the Avengers, this is League.

Lafouboy4 votes

People will tell you "don't do it", but I recommend it. Literally, there is no better way to win a game than to harmonize with your team and cause disharmony on the enemy's team. Put them on tilt; all's fair in League and war.

The Sword Saint2 votes

Right? And if you say stuff that gets your own team laughing it makes it less likely they THEY tilt since they're having a good time.

I've abandoned teamates to die and had them laugh it off because I typed something like , "nope nope nope, fuck that peace! rip" when there are too many enemies and I don't want to suicide trying to be a hero.

slippykitten3 votes

It isn't reasonable to Riot for you to use the chat feature for anything except saying "i love you". unless you mean it sarcastically, then you will get banned for that as well.

Only Play Darius2 votes

Best not to risk it, seems these days saying anything in /all that isn't rainbows and butterflies could get you banned.

Better to spam on their dead body, you won't get banned from doing that.

The Sword Saint1 votes

You mean emote spam? That does work but it leaves no real room for creativity and also puts me in danger by staying around when anyone might show up.

Zmuecat1 votes

I like where your head is at, the stuff in your OP should not be a problem in all chat. If I read that in all chat it could cause a tilt if I was already on edge, but I don't see anything banworthy.

Most of the community here will be against you, but I also think a lot of people here are way too sensitive for their own good.

Would advise against any curse words, regardless of context, just cause it might attract more reports.

Enjoy.

4thHorsman2 votes

I do this with some champs, but I make it less "toxic" by roleplaying my champ

Annie "You smell like burning" DrMundo "Mundo think you a big sissy" Karthus "Let me sing you the song of my people" Rammus "Ok"

The Sword Saint1 votes

That's what I'm basically talking about. Some people rage super hard at roleplay. Or like, if you start making anime references they'll flip their shit nd start spamming about weabos.

WarlockLaw1 votes

Anything you say with the goal of tilting someone, enemy or ally, is something I would consider bm. Shit like that wouldn't be allowed in organized sports.

Personally I'd advise that the only things you put in all chat are either compliments or are entirely unrelated to the current game. Anything else could easily be construed into bm

The Sword Saint1 votes

I'd love to see all chat during LCS games. That would probably be hilarious.

WarlockLaw1 votes

I'm genuinely curious if they even use it, and/or if they are allowed to

The Sword Saint1 votes

"Whats the matter, having a bad day? Can you only manage a single lift? It's ok, lots of people have a hard time getting it up."

Baseball3b1 votes

It's allowed in pro Football (American), Soccer, basketball, baseball, hell probably even tennis

There's always a fine line between trash talk and verbal abuse, but I don't see a problem with shit talking at all

WarlockLaw1 votes

I don't think the line between trash talk and verbal abuse is fine at all, rather it's extremely blurry. Context is one thing but different people can interpret something in different ways. One person might think it's banter, but the person it's directed at might consider it verbal abuse.

Bottom line is, I don't think trash talk can ever be justified as something worthwhile to keep or something that should be allowed.

Baseball3b1 votes

Poor wording on my part. All I'm saying is, there's a huge, huge, difference between saying "yohoho" after getting a barrel crit as GP and typing "lel so salty, you're sad cuz bad, go kill yourself"

If you're truly worried about people misinterpreting things you say, you might as well never talk at all as anything you can ever say can be taken the wrong way.

Trash talk is meant to be tongue in cheek. Admittedly, it's hard to understand that in an online game or any internet setting, but shit talking is a major part of not only every sport ever, but in many forms of social relationships as well. I really don't see why, if someone doesn't like the banter or is having a bad day, or whatever, they can't just mute the other person. Hell, should Larry Bird, Muhammad Ali, or Serena Williams be looked down at for the shit talking they did? No.

Obviously I'm not condoning verbal abuse and something clearly needs to be done about it. There's just a big difference between abuse and banter. It's a natural part of competition and there's no sense in fighting it.

WarlockLaw1 votes

I've never really understood trash talking in general. To me it always makes the trash talker sound arrogant. I also never really wanted to trash talk somebody.

As for champion quotes into all chat after certain plays, it really depends on the quote and whether or not somebody knows it is a quote. Typing "your skills are inferior" might get heavily misconstrued if somebody doesn't know that it's one of Master Yi's taunts. Additionally if you spam them after every single play that is reportable as spam.

Baseball3b2 votes

Maybe I just have a different view of it seeing as I've been an athlete my entire life. It is arrogance, but it's tongue in cheek faux arrogance/bad manners. Part of the appeal is just trying to get into the other person's head and the other part's just seeing how creative you can get with it. Even my non-jock friends shit talk each other when we play SSB or PS All-stars or Poker or whatever. It's just a natural aspect of competition.

Again, poor wording on my part (I've had a long day of classes). I wasn't referring to champions quotes after plays, but that there's a difference between general tongue in cheek trash talk and verbal abuse/bullying. (i.e. "Not even close" when you just barely escape a gank vs "you so bad, you should get cancer") even if one can't fully define it.

Myrddin1 votes

{quoted}

Anything you say with the goal of tilting someone, enemy or ally, is something I would consider bm. Shit like that wouldn't be allowed in organized sports.

Personally I'd advise that the only things you put in all chat are either compliments or are entirely unrelated to the current game. Anything else could easily be construed into bm

never played a sport have you

WarlockLaw1 votes

I've played 3 actually and shit talking wasn't in any of them, maybe I was too young as the last one was dropped before I was 14.

urfie271 votes

No it isn't, no matter how hard Riot tries to keep ENFORCING it as truth.

Banter is found not only in every single team sport in existence, but also in literally every single casual social group ever. Trying to fight it is literally trying to convince people to not act like people.

Riot wants hardcore LCS in full sport arenas, but lord knows a bunch of weird looking asian guys all smiling and sending winky faces to their friends in game congratulating them on winning isn't gonna cut it.

If you can't handle the bantz, that's literally YOU'RE fault, and instead of trying to change everyone else to suit you, you should either go with the flow or stfu.

The Sword Saint2 votes

In the case of banter, there really is no reason not to just mute someone if you aren't feeling it. By definition, banter isn't toxic shit like 'go cut yourself %%%' where there's a legitimate argument that 'the damage has been done'.

It's more like, 'god I'm so not interested in this guy's attempts to be funny' and you just mute the guy and move on. Even if the banter is intended to get under your skin, if it's not toxic garbage the most it can really warrant is an eye roll and anything beyond that is just you choosing to overreact.

If I give you a rope you don't like (banter) and you choose to hang yourself with it (rage) instead of throwing it away or tossing it into storage somewhere (mute), that really shouldn't be on me - even if I was secretly hoping that you'd do something dumb with it.

urfie271 votes

Exactly, the people who actually get offended by "lol ur gay" are a very small vocal minority, that Riot has a fetish with appeasing.

Why do people talk shit? Cus it's fun.

Thing is, even with all the "player correction" I find that people who are actually fun to play with are less common, whereas I still get just as many negative attitudes. They shooed away the people who are god damn human beings and they still have a reputation of worst gaming community around.

Matthias91191 votes

This is an interesting question, and as you can see you've gotten a bunch of different responses already.

The only real answer I can give is: it depends.

To me, personally, obviously silly or in-character "trash talk" directed at the enemy team is fine, as long as you're not doing it so much that it becomes spam. (I would hope you also perhaps say some things that aren't solely trash talk, even if it's only "glhf" and "ggwp".) There is -- again, IMO -- a big difference between "/all DRAAAAAAAVEN!!!" after a clutch play as Draven and "/all HAHAHAHA YOU FKIN SCRUBS SHUD UNINSTALL AND KILL URSELVES" after the same play. I would hope that people can appreciate the former to some extent, but most players are not going to take the latter very well. (Nor should they.)

Relevant points from the Summoner's Code (http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/get-started/summoners-code/):

Enjoy Yourself, but not at Anyone Else's Expense We want you to get excited, to have tension-filled moments, and to celebrate your success. This doesn't mean that we're okay with you ruining anybody else's day. (It goes on to talk about how it's bad to attack the players on your team, but makes no specific mention of trash-talk directed at enemies.)

Could trash talk "ruin someone else's day"? Perhaps. Someone might take it the wrong way -- but anyone might take anything the wrong way, which is why chat restrictions and punishments have been based on the community's standards and not the standards of the most sensitive players. Still, you run the risk of seriously pissing someone off, especially if you're trying to play head games and not just be funny.

Show Humility in Victory, and Grace in Defeat While it's alright to celebrate, make sure that you keep any gloating (or any other mode of self-indulgence) out of all chat. Instead, thank your opponents for the game. After all, despite their best efforts, they just made you a very happy person.

Trash-talking in /all chat after after a kill or if your team is dominating is, well, gloating. If you're being so silly or over-the-top or obviously RPing, it's less likely to be taken as you seriously insulting the enemy team, especially if you are a gracious winner/loser at the end of the match.

An alternative standard that Riot stated back when the Tribunal was active was "is this player being a jerk?" and/or "would I want this player on my team/in my game?". If you're actively attempting to piss people off, you're likely to eventually end up on the wrong wide of those. It's a fine line between "getting under their skin but keeping it light-hearted" and "being a huge jerk".

The Sword Saint1 votes

I'd say that just picking teemo into a melee top lane is already past the line of being a huge jerk. The line is pretty blurry when the game gives you the opportunity to ruin someone's day harder than any minor statement you could make in chat,

Matthias91191 votes

Playing the game to win is, almost by definition, not trolling or being a jerk. If your day is ruined by having a bad laning matchup, I'm not sure this is the game for you.

Not to say that people can't be poor winners, or do things to the other team that many players consider poor sportsmanship (like dragging out a match when the other team has an AFK player so they can farm easy kills). But counter-picking someone is not "being a jerk" -- that's what the whole Draft system is balanced around.

The Sword Saint1 votes

No, it is. If you pick someone like teemo against a melee enemy laner you've already decided that you don't care how frustrated they are that they aren't even allowed to really play the game for as much as 20 minutes (if they're good little passive farmers who never to trade back and just let teemo push them around forever while losing tons of xp and cs from zoning). You decided that winning is more important than any sort of 'sportsmanship'.

If you make this scumbag teemo pick into a melee and the melee player manages to rile you up and taunt you into going to aggressive and your little furry ass dies because of it, I say GOOD FOR THEM. That's what you deserve for throwing any sort of respect out of the window by picking such a hard counter.

But that's just my opinion.

Matthias91191 votes

You decided that winning is more important than any sort of 'sportsmanship'.

And who's to say what's next? Players using the fog of war to force unfair fights? Attacking enemies while the cooldowns on their ults and other abilities are down? Building resistances against the type of damage the enemy carries do? "Stealing" Baron when the other team rightfully earned it by doing 99% of the damage?

I cringe when I think that such unsportmanlike actions might go unpunished.

agbudar1 votes

joke's on you always got allchat turned off it does nothing but invite flame wars

The Sword Saint1 votes

There's always emote spam and lane camping.

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

Seeing that Riot didn't do the DotA thing and have champions automatically sass the enemy team when they're winning, I say it's fair game as long as it's all in good fun.

It's no worse than using taunts, jokes, dances and laughs

Bhagswag1 votes

I'll just mute you until we're winning. Then unmute, and ask how it's going.

I love doing that. They talk so much, then they're dead silent.

MohawkBird1 votes

[deleted]

The Sword Saint1 votes

Idk, I feel like people are missing my point. The goal is to agitate them to make them misplay. As long as the things that get said aren't themselves reportable, I feel like it shouldn't matter punishment wise if they lose their shit over a smiley face or two every time they die in a gank or something.

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