season 5 v season 7

sirwaterfles·Jan 9, 2017·116 votes·4,433 views

S5: Dude chill its only 10/20 at 20 min. Just fall back to second tier tower, 1 good tf and we are back in the game. S7: Yeah its 10/20 at 20 min the only chance we got is for them to dc.

I dont say we have to go back to S5 but can towerdamage ramp up faster again so the enemy divers atleast have to balance the tower agro? Im sick of seeying people take 4 shots and still walking away. The otherday i dove around lvl 7 with 1 tankitem, took 3 towershots and still got out with half hp and summs up to escape from the enemy jungler. That just shouldnt have happened.

edit: Im not saying we should go back to S5. I just think we have gone to far in the other direction.

101 Comments

iTaLenTZJan 9, 201748 votes

Season 5 was the best until Sated Devourer ruined it

sirwaterflesJan 9, 201716 votes

jup saited devourer sucked so hard. Had to stop playing my then beloved voli and never got that same connection with him again ;(. No matter how many succesfull ganks and objectives you had taken there came 20 min freefarm godyr to 1v5.

Papa AndreiJan 9, 20175 votes

Udyr is just bs as he is.

Troll for TrumpJan 9, 20178 votes

and Juggernaut update

Big LincolnJan 9, 201710 votes

juggernauts were great in concept

the problem is that riot only got 1/4 of them right Darius

doublelift fgJan 9, 201710 votes

the problem with release darius (rework) is that he only needed 2 champs to heal for 30% of his missing hp without counting spirit visage

2 champs was seriously broken, it's easy af to hit 2 people with his Q in a teamfight and watch him getting half of his hp back not only this but his Q width was twice bigger what i hate about darius is his E, it doesn't show the fucking range i can't know if i'll be hooked or not

else i'm pretty much ok with his rework, the other sucked so hard lmfao

Big LincolnJan 9, 20172 votes

I mean it's not a slow hook, how are they gonna telegraph the range for it lol

and don't say put it on a delay, I've had enough of that meme

i love darius

VesemirJan 9, 20173 votes

Actually made Fiora healthier than the old one who presses R for Pentakill.

Troll for TrumpJan 9, 20173 votes

Well.

She became balanced around a minigame.

Because it was %maxhealth true damage, she abused tank builds for a while.

DoktorKaiserJan 9, 201728 votes

As a season 1 veteran, the best and most fun gameplay was in Season 2 (mobility was minimal back then, see the connection) and middle Season 5 when literally 90% of champions were viable especially in the jungle untill they decided to buff the fuck out of Lee and do juggernaut+gp and ruin everything again -,-

SnowplosionJan 9, 20172 votes

They buffed Lee on the world's patch and he was played one time in the finals. Also, he wasn't played in the next season until he was buffed again. Preferential treatment, yes, but he really sucked in season 5 and most of season 6, so it was sort of fair.

AnidanJan 9, 20177 votes

Season 1 and 2 veteran chiming in here, too: Season 2 was the funnest to me as well.

I wouldn't mind the mobility creep if it was made accessible to more champions. Either everyone should have the chance to have mobility equally, or it should handed out relatively sparingly and balanced accordingly in their power budget, which League has shown a problem with doing properly.

ZmIkSaJan 9, 201716 votes

10 -20 ? The game is lost after 0-2 if they got bot lane tower, too xDDDDDDD

Irelia BotJan 9, 201711 votes

Why stop at season 5 when season 2 and 4 existed?

sirwaterflesJan 9, 20172 votes

Because i was about lvl 12 at the end of season 2 only playing vs bots :D still trying to figure out why that crownthingy wasnt the best item in the game since it gave you both health and mana regen which in my mind had to be the most important stats back than ;p

EnlegacyJan 9, 20177 votes

Because all I remember from season 4 was feral flare.

Troll for TrumpJan 9, 20175 votes

season 2 had too much stalling. Or was that season 3?

Serika ZeroJan 9, 20176 votes

s3 was the only time assassins were meta and kassadin had over 90% ban rate

assassin player here (ahri, diana) and counter assassin (morgana, lulu, lissandra, pre rework malza). So, I liked those times, but not everyone else did

SnowplosionJan 9, 20171 votes

I though season 4 was an assassin meta.

inplaneJan 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I though season 4 was an assassin meta.

Season 3 was Assassin meta. To be honest, it was pretty fun since towers weren't complete ass back then and it was way simpler. Assassins didn't outclass any champ. They were just favourable. I'd deal with squishy Assassins over Tanky Assassins that chase you down like a truck while you're pedaling a tricycle.

rtbf76109271Jan 9, 201710 votes

Im sick of seeying people take 4 shots and still walking away.

lol 4????

Poppy Nautilus TahmKench

4 is definitely too few for the champions which are supposed to take aggro. But 20+ is also too many. Maybe like 8 - 12?

watch the bushJan 9, 201710 votes

BRING BACK SEASON 5. BACK WHEN LEAGUE WAS ACTUALLY LEAGUE.

Troll for TrumpJan 9, 20178 votes

Inb4 comments saying "you're supposed to protect t2, t1 and nexus towers." The game is so snowbally that you can't protect the towers, at all. And if you're on the other end of the snowball, where you DO have the ability to protect the turret, you won't have any need to, because you'll be so ahead you can just pushpushpush and end the game at 23 mins. There's no middle ground, with both teams being on even footing anymore.

Titanium70Jan 9, 20176 votes

Mid-End Season 5 I had most fun playing LoL, ever. I played more and ended up Dia3. Having beefy Teams, long TFs with high tension, long laning and basicly the whole roaster of champions viable. (I could pick Galio and Urgot Top and noone complained...). Than suddenly Juggernauts and Fiora hijack the League and everything went downhill from there... sigh... (They didn't have overly bad designs... but they were so strong and designed for their one lane, they kicked out any compedition/diversity).

VesemirJan 9, 20173 votes

Fiora is definetly not the problem this game is facing atm.

CremepieJan 9, 20175 votes

Fiora is in a good spot right now, but man when her rework was first released, it was wayyy too strong. Her numbers are much better now.

VesemirJan 9, 20175 votes

Now you actually need to be a decent Fiora player to carry. Being good isnt enough, you need to know what you are doing to be succesful. This is what i love about her.

RAT IN GAME UwU Jan 9, 20176 votes

seriously towers are fucking worthless now, they are so unreliable that if ANY 3 champions are walking up to you, or any 2 in a solo lane the best advice is to leave lane entirely, not chill under tower, champions like poppy can tower dive you at level 3, same with riven and irelia and kill you and just walk away

ChaoticPineconeJan 9, 20175 votes

...or from a different angle,

S5: spend the first 30 minutes csing well, harassing, rotating, playing safe to double your enemy's kills. One teamfight throws all that out of the window. S6: getting a early lead actually means something. If you want to play a lategame scaling champion, dont except to feed and eventually outscale.

doublelift fgJan 9, 201711 votes

{quoted}

...or from a different angle,

S5: spend the first 30 minutes csing well, harassing, rotating, playing safe to double your enemy's kills. One teamfight throws all that out of the window. S6: getting a early lead actually means something. If you want to play a lategame scaling champion, dont except to feed and eventually outscale.

people like this have no fucking clue what they're talking about

even if you don't feed with a lategame scaling champ YOU WILL STILL LOSE THE FUCKING GAME they will just push and finish the game by 16 min, i don't know how do you expect late game scaling champs like nasus or jax to do something against this, fight? and lose the game? let them baron/every drake?

yeah sure

the truth is that right now fbt gives a gold adventage we never had before in league, breaking the game and making people pushing every tower non-stop getting more gold, and finishing the game faster

VesemirJan 9, 20172 votes

i literally stopped playing my main champion since s1 Nasus this season. I just cant do anything. Everyone deals incredibly high damage. CC everywhere. Shields everywhere. These items make tanking useless: item 3036 item 3033 . I switched to Mid from Top after 7 seasons.

AMYS GRAVEJan 9, 20176 votes

S5: spend the first 30 minutes csing well, harassing, rotating, playing safe to double your enemy's kills. One teamfight throws all that out of the window.

So you had to be good at all phases of the game? Interesting.

ChaoticPineconeJan 9, 20172 votes

Ha.

Want to know something funny? That exact same statement can be applicable now. "Oh, youre complaining that the game snowballs too hard? So you have to be good at all phases of the game, and you cant just passively farm and get pushed in earlygame without learning how to lane, trade efficiently, or go for early rotations? Interesting."

AMYS GRAVEJan 9, 20175 votes

In S5 you needed to be good at the laning phase and the mid game to even have the gold to be on par for teamfights. Teamfights were the climax of the story that you built up to, and mistakes in earlier phases of the game became apparent here. If you lost the early game it meant you didn't farm well and wont have the gold to win the teamfight or that your opposing laner had a lot of gold and would dominate a teamfight. If you didn't rotate well you lost control of your jungle in the mid game and your jungler was underleveled, which set them behind when contesting neutral objectives. Mistakes in other phases of the game mattered, but they didn't completely remove a phase of the game entirely. Those teamfights you talk about weren't coin flips, someone won them because they won other phases of the game, and they transitioned their skill from other phases of the game into their teamfighting skill which they also needed to win the game.

In S7 you only need to be good at the laning phase, because mid game and late game teamfights don't even exist. There is no teamfighting phase anymore, just laning and then slaughter everyone/get slaughtered until you get bored and win/lose. Only about 1 in 10 games i have right now even gets one even-ish teamfight before the game is over.

So no, you don't have to be good at all phases of the game right now.

ChaoticPineconeJan 9, 20171 votes

Youre seeing it through rose colored lenses. In a perfect world, I agree with you. Thats how it SHOULD be. But Season 5 was far from perfect.

Youre talking about the Sated Devourer meta where Kayle and Jax hit hypercarry levels of strength with 2 items, and Warwick was pick or ban. Then we saw the Cinderhulk meta - if you picked an early game champion like Lee Sin or Jarvan, you better be at least 5/0 before midgame or youll be outscaled by Sejuani. You didnt have to go even in lane, just survive it until you get 3,000 gold - play Maokai, Sejuani, Nautilus, or Hecarim (take smite, get Cinderhulk with redsmite, proceed to 1v1 any carry for the rest of the game). Youre talking about when the lategame hypercarry "5.0 AS Kogmaw" hit his powerspike with 2 cheap on-hit items (WIts End and Guinsoos).

Season 5 was about gold efficiency. A gold lead doesnt mean much if your opponent can match your power with cheaper items, and thats exactly what Sated Devourer, Cinderhulk, and Guinsoos allowed the meta picks to do. That isnt balance. That just means that if you arent playing a champ that can abuse broken items, you either need a gigantic lead or youll be outscaled by a 0/3 Kogmaw who finished 2 items.

AMYS GRAVEJan 10, 20175 votes

Season 5 average game length

http://www.leaguemath.com/match-duration-analysis/

season 7 average game length

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations

Where did the extra 5-7 minutes (based on rank) go? Season 5 had its problems but game pacing wasn't one of them. There were distinct phases of the game where some champions were strong and others were weak.

There's a lot of misinformation in here pertaining to what was actually in season 5, so i'm going to unpack it.

Youre talking about the Sated Devourer meta where Kayle and Jax hit hypercarry levels of strength with 2 items, and Warwick was pick or ban.

Warwick abused red smite which was nerfed in patch 4.21 and so was warwick double nerfing him out of viability before the season started. Warwick was actually strong for one patch and it wasn't even in season 5. You're remembering the preseason and acting as if it were the season. Note season 7 opened a month before patch 7.1 while season 5 waited and started on 5.1.

Then we saw the Cinderhulk meta - if you picked an early game champion like Lee Sin or Jarvan, you better be at least 5/0 before midgame or youll be outscaled by Sejuani. You didnt have to go even in lane, just survive it until you get 3,000 gold - play Maokai, Sejuani, Nautilus, or Hecarim (take smite, get Cinderhulk with redsmite, proceed to 1v1 any carry for the rest of the game).

Sejuani and cinderhulk survived for one patch before that got double nerfed off the planet. Red smite was solved by patch 5.1 so again, you're talking about the preseason not the season. That meta had the most champion diversity we have ever seen, and Jarvan, Vi, Lee were all quite viable because they punished the tanks shit tier early games. If you let a tank jungle free farm until they got to their late game then you weren't using your early game pressure. There was a trinity of power where cinderhulk champions beat sated dev champs, sated dev champs beat warrior champs, and warrior champs beat cinderhulk champs because these three classess were strong in the mid (cinderhulk) late (sated) and early (warrior) game. There were distinct phases of the game with classes that excelled in each phase of the game.

Youre talking about when the lategame hypercarry "5.0 AS Kogmaw" hit his powerspike with 2 cheap on-hit items (WIts End and Guinsoos).

That was preseason 6, not season 5.

Season 5 was about gold efficiency. A gold lead doesnt mean much if your opponent can match your power with cheaper items, and thats exactly what Sated Devourer, Cinderhulk, and Guinsoos allowed the meta picks to do. That isnt balance. That just means that if you arent playing a champ that can abuse broken items, you either need a gigantic lead or youll be outscaled by a 0/3 Kogmaw who finished 2 items.

Guinsoos, Cinderhulk, and Sated were all quite expensive items with delayed powerspikes. The build path for Guinsoos was particularly bad.

Even with all of that the problems you listed were individual items/champions, not systemic gameplay problems like keystone masteries/ turret first blood/ dynamic queue/ autofill. The type of problems we had then were isolated and bans solved our problems (maybe not as well as we would like but hey its something) while the problems that have been developing for the past two seasons are systemic.

ChaoticPineconeJan 10, 20171 votes

First of all, when you say Season 5 you dont get to pick and choose the period of X months you want. You either take it all or leave it. Just because it was preseason did you not play any games? Did rank queues not exist? Did League's servers completely shut down? When I say Season 5, I mean the more than just the rank season. I mean every single patch from the 5.X cycle.

Lets make a few things clear - Sated Devourer was introduced as an item in 5.13. That is, in most peoples view, in the middle of Season 5. If youre trying to tell me that patch 5.13 is preseason 5, I dont know what timeline youre using. And at that time, whatever you want to call it, Jax, Kayle, Xin, and pretty much every other on-hit jungler was abusing the item as well.

I'll give you that Sated had a delayed powerspike, and that Guinsoos has a semiawkward build path (because lets face it - any champion that uses Guinsoos could also use flat AD and flat AP. Not the best build path, but not a useless one). Devourer, Guinsoos and Cinderhulk did not have delayed powerspikes. They had very real, immediate powerspikes. Thats why they were strong. But in addition to their immediate powerspikes, they got stronger as the game went on. Cinderhulk got stronger gradually, but Devourer and Guinsoos got additional powerspikes - Devourer when it transformed into sated and/or more on-hit items were purchased, Guinsoos when more on-hit items (or Runnans) were purchased.

As for cost, Cinderhulk+Redsmite cost 2650. Guinsoos cost 2800. Sated cost 2450, but like you said, did take some time to get to full strength. Oh - lets not forget the fun that was Runeglaive Ezreal or FrostQueenClaim midlaners.

And back to my point - when Gold efficiency is so unbalanced for so many champions, thats a problem. Dont you see? You can say first-turret gold is a problem, but its only a problem because 400 gold gives you 400 gold worth of stats. If you can abuse pre-nerf Guinsoos, 400 gold isnt much of a problem - your first item costs 2800 gold (compared to a 3800 IE) and gives you 6000 gold worth of stats.

And youre using systemic in a way that loses its meaning. Systemic problems are those when taken as a whole, the entire system has or creates a problem, even if each individual part of the system is fine. Youre talking about localized problems - if you can sit there and point to each thing you have a problem with (keystone masteries, first turret gold, dynamic queue, autofill) thats not a systemic problem. Thats not a problem by virtue of the system youre in.

but thats neither here nor there. My point isnt talking about how great or terrible Season 6 was. My point is that Season 5 wasnt some pinnacle of balance where everyone was happy and nobody complained. There were just as many complaints then as there are now.

AMYS GRAVEJan 10, 20173 votes

First of all, when you say Season 5 you dont get to pick and choose the period of X months you want. You either take it all or leave it. Just because it was preseason did you not play any games? Did rank queues not exist? Did League's servers completely shut down? When I say Season 5, I mean the more than just the rank season. I mean every single patch from the 5.X cycle.

Then warwick, red smite, and kog maw being problematic don't count, because they were all parts of different seasons. Sorry to say but you're just factually incorrect on when the season started and ended. Ranked queues existed on patches 4.20 and 4.21, but didn't matter because the hard reset was still to come.

Lets make a few things clear - Sated Devourer was introduced as an item in 5.13. That is, in most peoples view, in the middle of Season 5. If youre trying to tell me that patch 5.13 is preseason 5, I dont know what timeline youre using.

I never said sated was a preseason thing, go back and reread my post. It was, however, needed to complete the rock paper scissors battle of jungle items as i described in my previous post.

And youre using systemic in a way that loses its meaning. Systemic problems are those when taken as a whole, the entire system has or creates a problem, even if each individual part of the system is fine. Youre talking about localized problems - if you can sit there and point to each thing you have a problem with (keystone masteries, first turret gold, dynamic queue, autofill) thats not a systemic problem. Thats not a problem by virtue of the system youre in.

I chose the word quite carefully. All of the examples i give are systemic because they comprise the system that defines how league works. All of your complaints in comparison are specific champions or items which, as long as the game systems are in order, can be balanceable.

but thats neither here nor there. My point isnt talking about how great or terrible Season 6 was. My point is that Season 5 wasnt some pinnacle of balance where everyone was happy and nobody complained. There were just as many complaints then as there are now.

And there inlies the difference between seasons 5 and 7. Season 5s problems were definitely present but they were individualistic, whereas season 7s problems are systemic. No amount of champion or item rebalancing is going to fix keystones, or first turret gold, or the increased passive gold gen added in season 6. Those can't be fixed without changing the entire flow of the game. Sejuani can be nerfed, Lee Sin can be buffed, and those don't fundamentally change the value of objectives. Individual changes like that rebalance the game so one champ isn't warping the meta but the changes (for the most part) are localized to that one champ.

ChaoticPineconeJan 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Then warwick, red smite, and kog maw being problematic don't count, because they were all parts of different seasons. Sorry to say but you're just factually incorrect on when the season started and ended. Ranked queues existed on patches 4.20 and 4.21, but didn't matter because the hard reset was still to come.

...and I can say that youre factually incorrect neither. Theres always a reset at the start of a new season - up until that point, youre in the previous season. When you queue up, they go into your season 5 stats. You can end Gold when the rewards are done but end plat when the season actually ends, and sites like op.gg classify you as a S5 Plat, even if you have a gold boarder.

I never said sated was a preseason thing, go back and reread my post. It was, however, needed to complete the rock paper scissors battle of jungle items as i described in my previous post.

OK - lets forget Warwick, since apparently you think he is trash-tier without Feral Flare. How about the other problematic champions? Kayle, Xin, Jax in the jungle?

I chose the word quite carefully. All of the examples i give are systemic because they comprise the system that defines how league works. All of your complaints in comparison are specific champions or items which, as long as the game systems are in order, can be balanceable.

Systemic is not the right word. A systemic problem in league is how there is always a single meta. Even with nerfs to problematic champions, that would just mean the next tier of strength would become the problematic. Something like that is a systemic problem - its a problem that derives from trying to balance 135+ champions and dozens of items and can never be 'fixed', just mitigated.

Your complaints are specific attributes of gameplay, which as long as the game systems are in order, can be balanceable. Autofill is balanced (you might hate it when it happens to you 1/10 of the time, but its balanced.) Dynamic queue can be balanced - if both teams comprise of the same party-numbers. Keystones can be nerfed, buffed, changed, added, or deleted. First turret gold can be solved by lowering the amount, making turrets stronger, etc. All those are facets inside the system which doesnt compromise the system itself. An indicator that these are not systemic problems is that these gameplay functions were added one-by-one, and you can identify each as an isolated factor. Those are not systemic.

And there inlies the difference between seasons 5 and 7. Season 5s problems were definitely present but they were individualistic, whereas season 7s problems are systemic. No amount of champion or item rebalancing is going to fix keystones, or first turret gold, or the increased passive gold gen added in season 6. Those can't be fixed without changing the entire flow of the game. Sejuani can be nerfed, Lee Sin can be buffed, and those don't fundamentally change the value of objectives. Individual changes like that rebalance the game so one champ isn't warping the meta but the changes (for the most part) are localized to that one champ.

Again, not systemic. In theory, an infinite amount of champion or item rebalancing WOULD fix keystones - why wouldnt it? It adds another dimension to balance making it more difficult, but in theory its possible. First turret gold is only a problem right now because of how fast first turret goes down - if, for example, the turrent didnt go down until 35 minutes, the 400 gold isnt too big of a deal. If, for example, the bonus is +50, then its not so much of a deal. Thats why its not a systemic problem.

Just because its a horizontal problem (meaning that its a single problem that affects a large number of champions, as opposed to one champion with a lot of problems) doesnt mean its a systemic one. Its still derived from a single factor that can be isolated and nerfed, buffed, or even removed - and thats why its not systemic.

AMYS GRAVEJan 10, 20173 votes

...and I can say that youre factually incorrect neither. Theres always a reset at the start of a new season - up until that point, youre in the previous season. When you queue up, they go into your season 5 stats. You can end Gold when the rewards are done but end plat when the season actually ends, and sites like op.gg classify you as a S5 Plat, even if you have a gold boarder.

Then you're saying that patches 4.20 and 4.21 are season 4 then, not season 5 because the ranked reset hadn't occurred yet.

OK - lets forget Warwick, since apparently you think he is trash-tier without Feral Flare.

Feral Flare was season 4, removed in 4.20, and Warwick was god tier broken with release red smite. Don't know where you're getting that straw man from.

Systemic is not the right word. A systemic problem in league is how there is always a single meta.

This was not true in season 5. In season 5 we had teamfight comps, split push comps, poke comps, stall and outscale comps, win lane comps, and as a result there was strategy to your picks. It was not a single meta.

Again, not systemic. In theory, an infinite amount of champion or item rebalancing WOULD fix keystones - why wouldn't it?

Because keystones as they are add easy to access power to every champion, even those who are balanced around having a high skill floor. You can add power to garen or remove power from yasuo but keystones have warped the skill curve of every champion in a way that homogenizes them. One of the remarkable things about league is that every champion is different and takes different skills to master. No amount of champion balancing can raise the skill floor of keystones.

Just because its a horizontal problem (meaning that its a single problem that affects a large number of champions,

A horizontal problem that affects large numbers of champions can't be adjusted mid season without throwing a lot of champions way off balance. There is a reason these kinds of changes are reserved for preseason, and now that preseason is over these kinds of systemic problems can't adequately be addressed until next year. You can't dramatically change game systems halfway through the season without causing an outcry the way they did with first turret gold just before worlds last season. Why were the pros upset? Because they had drafted their teams to be good at the lane swap meta and first turret blood changed the way the game functions on a fundamental level. No amount of champion or item balancing can fix that.

ChaoticPineconeJan 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Then you're saying that patches 4.20 and 4.21 are season 4 then, not season 5 because the ranked reset hadn't occurred yet.

Feral Flare was season 4, removed in 4.20, and Warwick was god tier broken with release red smite. Don't know where you're getting that straw man from.

Cause I dont know how much clearer I can be - I am talking about sated devourer Warwick. Goodness, its like talking to a brick wall. Patch 5.13's SATED DEVOURER.

I refuse to further any more points in the discussion until you can get that simple fact. Do you get it?

AMYS GRAVEJan 10, 20171 votes

OK - lets forget Warwick, since apparently you think he is trash-tier without Feral Flare

You were talking about Feral Flare, not sated devourer.

I refuse to further any more points in the discussion until you can get that simple fact. Do you get it?

You're clearly too emotional to discuss this rationally so i will bid you ado.

ChaoticPineconeJan 11, 20171 votes

Youre clearly too pigheaded to admit when youre wrong.

Since the start, I was talking about sated devoruer Warwick. For some reason, you insist that Sated Devourer came out preseason 5, which it didnt. When I reminded you, then you say that Warwick was broken during the Feral Flare/RedSmite changes, which has nothing to do with Sated Devourer Warwick.

How about you stop changing the subject. Lets go through this step by step:

SATED DEVOURER:

Sated Devourer came out in patch 5.13
Sated Devourer broke many champions, such as Kayle, Jax, Xin, and Warwick.
Therefore, since Sated Devourer completely shifted the meta and broke many champions, Season 5 wasnt the pinnacle of balance as you remember it to be.

Now go through the same argument for Cinderhulk, Runeglaive, Frost Queen, Guinsoos, and all the other balance issues I mentioned.

AMYS GRAVEJan 11, 20171 votes

No you said feral flare...

OK - lets forget Warwick, since apparently you think he is trash-tier without Feral Flare.

right there...

That was during the Feral Flare era.

and right there.... I've corrected you on several things that weren't in season 5 and your insistence that you were talking about something else is stupid when there is a record of exactly what you said.

Youre clearly too pigheaded

This conversation is over. Stop messaging me if you can't be constructive.

ChaoticPineconeJan 11, 20171 votes

I really hope youre doing this on purpose. Cause if you seriously dont get it, well, someone with that low of intelligence and ability to learn must be severely handicapped.

Two words - Sated Devourer.

Until you can understand those two words, stop responding to me.

DengedenJan 10, 20171 votes

Where did the extra 5-7 minutes (based on rank) go? Season 5 had its problems but game pacing wasn't one of them. There were distinct phases of the game where some champions were strong and others were weak.

It's arbitrary to say that longer game times are better and your implication that champions don't have phases of the game where they're strong and phases where they're weak has no basis in reality.

There's a lot of misinformation in here pertaining to what was actually in season 5, so i'm going to unpack it.

Sejuani and cinderhulk survived for one patch before that got double nerfed off the planet.

Strange. I could've sworn that ... http://lol.gamepedia.com/Sejuani_-_The_Winter%27s_Wrath#5.6

http://lol.gamepedia.com/Enchantment_-_Cinderhulk#Patch_History

... they were nerfed during entirely different patches. Weird, innit? How the Sejuani'd meme is total and utter BS and is kept alive by misinformation?

That meta had the most champion diversity we have ever seen, and Jarvan, Vi, Lee were all quite viable because they punished the tanks shit tier early games.

Which totally mattered. It's not like tanks could come back easily with their superior teamfighting and guaranteed 30-35 minute games.

If you let a tank jungle free farm until they got to their late game then you weren't using your early game pressure.

When it happens now, it's different because erm...

There was a trinity of power where cinderhulk champions beat sated dev champs, sated dev champs beat warrior champs, and warrior champs beat cinderhulk champs because these three classes were strong in the mid (cinderhulk) late (sated) and early (warrior) game.

Tanks were mid-late. Devourer was mid-late.

Even with all of that the problems you listed were individual items/champions, not systemic gameplay problems like keystone masteries

Only a problem with abuse cases. Which is solved by bans. Not that the circlejerk will allow you to admit that.

autofill

It was much better in S5, where you had a chance to fill every game, amirite?

turret FB

There aren't any in-game statistics that prove it's a problem.

Btw, I find the hypocrisy that the same people who will complain about tfb also want dragon gold back hilarious.

dynamicQ

I can't blame them for trying to make the game more team oriented. Even if it failed spectacularly.

The type of problems we had then were isolated and bans solved our problems

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either diversity is low in S6 and bans solve your problems or diversity is high and S6 is better than you'd care to admit.

AMYS GRAVEJan 10, 20173 votes

EDIT: also beggin your pardon if i mistook any of the other guys opinions as your own. ok. on with it.

Strange. I could've sworn that ... http://lol.gamepedia.com/Sejuani_-_The_Winter%27s_Wrath#5.6

http://lol.gamepedia.com/Enchantment_-_Cinderhulk#Patch_History

... they were nerfed during entirely different patches. Weird, innit? How the Sejuani'd meme is total and utter BS and is kept alive by misinformation?

Excuse me, they were nerfed in patches 5.6, 5.7, 5.9, and 5.10. Not the same patch but 4 out of 5 successive patches.

Which totally mattered. It's not like tanks could come back easily with their superior teamfighting and guaranteed 30-35 minute games.

and be behind by a thousand gold or more if they were actually punished, making their teamfight presence meh at best.

When it happens now, it's different because erm...

Its not, but people learned that you have to punish jungle tanks early game.

Tanks were mid-late. Devourer was mid-late.

On hit champions are solely late game. Try convincing anyone that master yi, jax, kayle, etc... are anything other than late game champs. Why do you think feral flare was good on on hit champions, it catered to the phase of the game where they excelled. Tanks get outscaled by damage in the late game quite hard overall to prevent super stalled out games so that someone wins eventually.

Only a problem with abuse cases.

Masteries are not only a problem with abuse cases, they give every champion very easy access to power which has warped the skill curve of the game. That manifests on some champions more than others, but is there on every champion the same.

It was much better in S5, where you had a chance to fill every game, amirite?

You have a chance to fill every game now, but people dodge instead creating long queue times or just flat out ruining games because they refuse to play the role assigned. The system then wasn't better than we have now, but the system we have now isn't better than the system we had then so no progress has been made.

There aren't any in-game statistics that prove it's a problem.

There aren't any that prove that it isn't, so we're kind of deadlocked. I will point out again that games are shorter so its not unreasonable to claim that it has led to a very snowbally meta in which late game hyper carries like jinx and koggers are all but gone. When the pace of the game is such that certain champions are completely unviable for that reason then there is a problem.

Btw, I find the hypocrisy that the same people who will complain about tfb also want dragon gold back hilarious.

hah yeah. Makes me laugh.

I can't blame them for trying to make the game more team oriented. Even if it failed spectacularly.

Neither can i, it seemed like a good idea in principle. The problem was that they backed themselves into a corner where they couldn't address the issue and as a consequence they ignored the outcry for far too long.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either diversity is low in S6 and bans solve your problems or diversity is high and S6 is better than you'd care to admit.

I'm confused, i assume there's a typo here because the discussion is on seasons 5 and 7 but i can't get your meaning.

DengedenJan 10, 20171 votes

Excuse me, they were nerfed in patches 5.6, 5.7, 5.9, and 5.10. Not the same patch but 4 out of 5 successive patches.

Which is a long time. 1-2 months. The implication that Sej alongside Cinderhulk got nerfed from multiple fronts without any reassessment of her strength (nerfed off the face of the Earth you might say) is simply untrue.

and be behind by a thousand gold or more if they were actually punished, making their teamfight presence meh at best. An AoE ult and the ability to facetank/CC the enemy carries more than makes up for it.

On hit champions are solely late game. Try convincing anyone that master yi, jax, kayle, etc... are anything other than late game champs. Why do you think feral flare was good on on hit champions, it catered to the phase of the game where they excelled.

People actually sold flare sometimes. The on-hit jungle items were good for 1v1 and 1v2 duels, which is what all the AS champions you mentioned excel at with one or two items. Their winrates over time reflect this.

Tanks get outscaled by damage in the late game quite hard overall to prevent super stalled out games so that someone wins eventually.

That may be but a frontline is still an invaluable addition to your teamcomp. Even late game.

Masteries are not only a problem with abuse cases, they give every champion very easy access to power which has warped the skill curve of the game.

I really don't see the problem with rewarding players for playing their champion as intended.

You have a chance to fill every game now,

Not if you got auto-filled previously.

but the system we have now isn't better than the system we had then so no progress has been made.

So you're wrong there at least in that one regard.

There aren't any that prove that it isn't, so we're kind of deadlocked.

And here I thought the people making the positive statement had to provide evidence.

I will point out again that games are shorter

Which I'm certain they were before fbt.

so its not unreasonable to claim that it has led to a very snowbally meta in which late game hyper carries like jinx and koggers are all but gone. When the pace of the game is such that certain champions are completely unviable for that reason then there is a problem.

Oh no. People aren't whining about Jinx. I'm in tears about that. Truly. Nvm, they're whining about Cait. Another late game champion.

Kog's and honestly any other late game champions' winrates are more than fine for one. So again. Wrong.

I'm confused, i assume there's a typo here because the discussion is on seasons 5 and 7 but i can't get your meaning.

I mean that either champion diversity in S7 is high and as such, the top tier champions can't be banned out. Or it's low in S7 and they can be banned out.

AMYS GRAVEJan 10, 20171 votes

Which is a long time. 1-2 months. The implication that Sej alongside Cinderhulk got nerfed from multiple fronts without any reassessment of her strength (nerfed off the face of the Earth you might say) is simply untrue.

The first nerf put her in line, the next one dumpstered her, and the following two were just beating a dead horse. Her winrate dropped by almost 10% (from 55% to 45%) over the course of those patches.

An AoE ult and the ability to facetank/CC the enemy carries more than makes up for it.

People actually sold flare sometimes. The on-hit jungle items were good for 1v1 and 1v2 duels, which is what all the AS champions you mentioned excel at with one or two items. Their winrates over time reflect this.

Their winrates over time now reflect a very different game from the flare game of season 4. Back then they did nothing but scale into the late game.

That may be but a frontline is still an invaluable addition to your teamcomp. Even late game.

Yes, but just because they are important doesn't mean that is their best phase of the game. ADCs are important in all phases of the game but that doesn't mean that they are equally so at all times.

I really don't see the problem with rewarding players for playing their champion as intended.

Not every champion is supposed to have easy access to power. Lee is supposed to be a hard to play champion and is balanced as such but with keystone masteries he becomes much stronger in inexperienced hands.

Not if you got auto-filled previously.

If someone dodges or a game is remade your autofill protection is removed, and you are back to potentially having to autofill.

So you're wrong there at least in that one regard.

No need to be dismissive, try making an argument next time. Queue times were long then because we didn't have autofill, queue times are long now because people dodge out of having to autofill. No progress has been made. I'm not wrong here, you're completely ignoring the argument.

And here I thought the people making the positive statement had to provide evidence.

We are both making claims, but there is no evidence to present. I don't have riots internal data and neither do you so you can't ask me to produce something that is impossible to produce. The only thing i can present is the fact that average game lengths have gone down dramatically, which i have.

Which I'm certain they were before fbt.

Season 5 average game length

http://www.leaguemath.com/match-duration-analysis/

season 7 average game length

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations

Read my posts. If you have an actual counter argument feel free to provide counter evidence.

Oh no. People aren't whining about Jinx. I'm in tears about that. Truly. Nvm, they're whining about Cait. Another late game champion.

Kog's and honestly any other late game champions' winrates are more than fine for one.

Don't be dismissive, win rates aren't the only thing that determine champion balance.

I mean that either champion diversity in S7 is high and as such, the top tier champions can't be banned out. Or it's low in S7 and they can be banned out.

The problems of season 7 aren't champion related, they affect entire classes of champions and the flow of the game. Bans don't fix the flow of the game.

So again. Wrong.

If you're just going to be a dick then peace out. I'm done educating you.

DengedenJan 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The first nerf put her in line, the next one dumpstered her, and the following two were just beating a dead horse. Her winrate dropped by almost 10% (from 55% to 45%) over the course of those patches.

She was a top tier competitive pick right until the very last nerf. And her winrate is fine now. What does that imply?

Their winrates over time now reflect a very different game from the flare game of season 4. Back then they did nothing but scale into the late game.

People wouldn't have a complained about a champion that needs 5-6 items to do anything.

Yes, but just because they are important doesn't mean that is their best phase of the game. ADCs are important in all phases of the game but that doesn't mean that they are equally so at all times.

I ... guess? ADCs are necessary after a certain point during the midgame and so are tanks. The latter spike earlier and then they become slightly less useful. Still more useful relative to a non-tank on the enemy team though. They are only "necessary" during the early game though, because of how things will look during its later stages.

Not every champion is supposed to have easy access to power. Lee is supposed to be a hard to play champion and is balanced as such but with keystone masteries he becomes much stronger in inexperienced hands.

And the old masteries, which gave him a flat or scaling amount of power, as opposed to something e.g. that requires him to damage the enemy champion with 3 separate sources of damage, are better because?

If someone dodges or a game is remade your autofill protection is removed, and you are back to potentially having to autofill.

That can be fixed and we are still left with the fact that a set amount of games are without filling.

No need to be dismissive, try making an argument next time.

My apologies.

I didn't want to delve into the pros and cons of the current champ select.

We are both making claims, but there is no evidence to present.

Exactly. Nothing has changed after the introduction of tfb that can be attributed to it. Nothing problematic anyway. E.g. Ziggs isn't an imbalanced champion.

Season 5 average game length

http://www.leaguemath.com/match-duration-analysis/

season 7 average game length

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations

Tfb was introduced during the middle of S6. Are you really implying that the games before tfb were just as long as in S5? We're at an impasse again.

Don't be dismissive, win rates aren't the only thing that determine champion balance.

Alright then, what else does? Pick and Banrate come to mind but...

The problems of season 7 aren't champion related, they affect entire classes of champions and the flow of the game. Bans don't fix the flow of the game.

That's really vague of you though. I don't know what that's supposed to mean. Are you confirming that pick diversity in S7 is high?