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Can we lower the amount of lifesteal in the game?

sirwaterfles··73 votes·3,342 views

Im fine with the amount of damage adc's put out in the game and i get that its healty for them to outscale tanks in the lategame since a fed tank would otherwise just become unkillable and a fed adc is still squisy. I also think its more thematic vs assassins: get the drop on them or find them low hp and you can blow them up but if you just walk upto an adc full hp he will just shoot you down. This all being said, the current amount of lifesteal removes their squisyness a bit to much atm. Adc can lifesteal back to full hp with 3 hits under 2 seconds. As a tank im not only getting melted but also serve as a healbot for the enemy instead of a zoningtool. Also sad for assassins and mages to burst an adc down to 25 procent, only to get clean upped in the next second(which is fine) and see the adc walking away full hp again(which is not fine).

edit: ill give 2 examples that i have encounted recently that made me write this post so my meaning gets clearer.

  1. a 3item(plusboots) jinks vs a 2.5 item olaf jungl and 2 item morg sup. Jinks gets snared and olaf pops out of the bush right next to her so all she can do is just aa melee. She got a double and walked away with a bloodthirster shield while the only moment she dropped below full hp was the morg q and the followup olaf e.
  2. a fed mf with warlods and onevvampiric scepter with 1/4 hp and ignite on her, standing in anivas ult and healing up.

Im not saying nerf lifesteal itself, im saying remove the total amount of it. heals of 200/300 hp each auto are commen atm and are just to high to be really fun. Its been around for a while now and bloodthister is becomming more and more commen. Its time that oneshotting them isnt the only way to keep out of the middle of a fight for longer then 2 seconds.

125 Comments

Critmaster Garen8 votes

{quoted}

a fed adc is still squisy.

really? could have fooled me

summoner 7 item 3156 item 3072 item 3139 item 3046 + support peel.

the amount of defensive mechnisms they have on actual really strong offensive items is downright stupid.

they could start by removing lifesteal from mercurial and lifegrip from maw. phantom dancers should get its % damage reduction removed or replaced by something else aswell.

if marksmen want extra safety they should build item 3026 and item 3102 and not get defensive stats tacked onto their strongest offensive items.

phantom dancer nieche used to be that it granted more raw offensive stats than other zeal items. well, it still does and additionally gives % damage reduction now. like wtf.

Tormentula1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MJqW9Ei9,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-09-06T17:00:08.807+0000)

they could start by removing lifesteal from mercurial and lifegrip from maw. phantom dancers should get its % damage reduction removed or replaced by something else aswell.

I wouldn't mind the removal of LS on mercurial, but item 3156's removal of lifegrip would hurt nonadc champions that build it such as most assassins or jungling marksmen as well as assassin mid laners vs. ap. There would literally be no reason to upgrade item 3155 to item 3156 if the lifegrip change was removed, you'd just build item 3155 early and then when you're full build finish it.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't mind the removal of LS on mercurial, but item 3156's removal of lifegrip would hurt nonadc champions that build it such as most assassins or jungling marksmen as well as assassin mid laners vs. ap. There would literally be no reason to upgrade item 3155 to item 3156 if the lifegrip change was removed, you'd just build item 3155 early and then when you're full build finish it.

honestly if it were up to me, they could revert maw to season 5 state. i liked the item a lot more when it granted more flat ad (up to 90 total was it?) the lower health you were.

Penguin Eclipse2 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't mind the removal of LS on mercurial, but item 3156's removal of lifegrip would hurt nonadc champions that build it such as most assassins or jungling marksmen as well as assassin mid laners vs. ap. There would literally be no reason to upgrade item 3155 to item 3156 if the lifegrip change was removed, you'd just build item 3155 early and then when you're full build finish it.

Hurting assassin mid laners might be a good thing. The item is a big part of why ad mids with the exception of Talon have been causing so much trouble lately.

Mizaya1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MJqW9Ei9,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-09-06T17:00:08.807+0000)

really? could have fooled me

summoner 7 item 3156 item 3072 item 3139 item 3046 + support peel.

the amount of defensive mechnisms they have on actual really strong offensive items is downright stupid.

they could start by removing lifesteal from mercurial and lifegrip from maw. phantom dancers should get its % damage reduction removed or replaced by something else aswell.

if marksmen want extra safety they should build item 3026 and item 3102 and not get defensive stats tacked onto their strongest offensive items.

phantom dancer nieche used to be that it granted more raw offensive stats than other zeal items. well, it still does and additionally gives % damage reduction now. like wtf.

Maw brings only one component of ADC stats. Typically it is bought as a 5th item unless you are not going with a traditional build. Bloodthirster became 700 gold more expensive and lost 25 AD in exchange for its current passive, so yes DPS was traded for defense. Mercurial is clearly an offensive tradeoff, you lose 10 AD and only get 10% lifesteal which doesn't do much. Phantom dancer is single target.

So I would be more than happy to revert BT back to old BT and same with PD which lost 7% MS 5% AS 5% crit. Hell, I would even take the increasing AD based on %missing Health back on Maw(yes you get armor pen but is that really worth having +95 AD at 30% health).

So in conclusion many offensive stats were reduced as a tradeoff. Now I'm a player who wants to get as much damage as possible, but simply removing what the DPS was traded for w/o compensation is just unfair.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=WE Mizaya,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MJqW9Ei9,comment-id=00050002,timestamp=2016-09-06T21:12:00.663+0000)

Maw brings only one component of ADC stats. Typically it is bought as a 5th item unless you are not going with a traditional build. Bloodthirster became 700 gold more expensive and lost 25 AD in exchange for its current passive, so yes DPS was traded for defense. Mercurial is clearly an offensive tradeoff, you lose 10 AD and only get 10% lifesteal which doesn't do much. Phantom dancer is single target.

So I would be more than happy to revert BT back to old BT and same with PD which lost 7% MS 5% AS 5% crit. Hell, I would even take the increasing AD based on %missing Health back on Maw(yes you get armor pen but is that really worth having +95 AD at 30% health).

So in conclusion many offensive stats were reduced as a tradeoff. Now I'm a player who wants to get as much damage as possible, but simply removing what the DPS was traded for w/o compensation is just unfair.

phantom dancers didnt lose 7% movement speed. it just triggers when an enemy is in certain range. so while its not as good for roaming, youre just as fast wehn it comes to fighting and kiting as before.

the tradeoff compared to the gain was too little.

the thing is, an adc could be caught out and bursted in the past. a dead adc doesnt deal damage, even when he has 10 ad more than now. with the items like there are now, theyre still dealing comparable damage to before their changes. but the likelyhood of the adc surviving even a hard engage massively increased. they just have so many buttons now to reset an engagement or a fight.

its easily possible for marksmen to get a lot more critical stike chance overall than before the rework. so the 5% less on phantom dancers is not a loss. when he had to buy 1 defensive item to survive in the past and get 50% crit chance total, and now he can just buy 1 more offensive item with a defense mechanism tacked onto it and can get 70% crit chance total.

plus, with the overall changes to resistance and the dominance of offensive masteries (removal of 10% crit damage reduction mastery, 4% general dr mastery, flat resitances from the mastery tree...), and the marksmen rework buffing their kits directly they are not weaker lategame than when these items had 10 more ad, or 5% as and crit.

i think what people dont really realize is that compared to previous seasons, we dont have an actual defensive mastery tree. we have a second utility/damage tree with some health regeneration sprinkled in. most of the so called "defensive masteries" are a joke, like 2 flat damage reduction. others are incedibly nieche like bond of stone for support tanks, or strength of the ages that is only good on junglers.

the closest the resolve tree has to an actual defensive mastery for most laners is the 5% bonus resistances.

adc are currently scaling harder into lategame than when their items had slightly higher offensive values, because of all the % damage amplification masteries, fervor of battle, and the removal of % damage reduction masteries.

Maximum Morde5 votes

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing them do to lifesteal what they did to Vamp, and just move it to very niche items so you have to make a meaningful decision of whether you want it or not.

sirwaterfles4 votes

That would be going to far. It would reallly suck as adc if you had to base every time you ate a single spell for example. Lifesteal is a needed and even fun and fair mechanic in the game but at the moment its just overtuned.

Maximum Morde4 votes

Welcome to life as everyone else? It's pushed the Meta to a burst damage explode one because poke damage doesn't stick anymore. Some people may like that, some don't.

LankPants15 votes

It would reallly suck as adc if you had to base every time you ate a single spell for example.

What you mean like mages have to? Seems fair.

Maybe it would serve to make healing supports actually relavent past the lane phase too.

sirwaterfles2 votes

Mages normally have a longer range and/or much shorter time window to unload their damage where adcs are meant to do sustained damage and need to stick around a little longer.

Penguin Eclipse14 votes

{quoted}

Mages normally have a longer range and/or much shorter time window to unload their damage where adcs are meant to do sustained damage and need to stick around a little longer.

That was certainly true in previous seasons. But with how easy it is to build large amounts of crit adc's can now unload as much damage as a mage in the same amount of time and they can keep it up continuously.

Depárt1 votes

Seems like you're trying to imply adc is a strong role right now???

By far the weakest role in the game, so much so that we have to resort to bringing utility to be viable.

Adc still does sustained damage and is meant to be a force to be reckoned with lategame, if you have no armor and you get crit then yes you are going to get chunked. But they still do not put out near as much burst as mages and assassins and are generally more squishy with less hp and defensive options that allow them to stay in combat like mages.\

LankPants3 votes

By far the weakest role in the game, so much so that we have to resort to bringing utility to be viable.

The weakest role in the game with a 99.99% pickrate since the end of season one? That's some interesting cognitive dissonance you've got going there buddy.

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

Mages have like 10+ AP items with some defensive function, the majority of items ADCs buy do not item 3001 item 3157 item 3116 item 3151 item 3060 item 3152 item 3027 item 3030 item 2301 item 3174 item 3040

ADCS have item 3156 item 3139 item 3053 item 3022 item 3071 item 3078 item 3046 for non-LS items.

Give ADCs the same mixed options mages enjoy and it would be fair.

WoonStruck2 votes

Mages can't sustain at all...so no.

For the last year Graves has showcased why anything remotely close to what you suggest is a horrible idea.

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

{quoted}

Mages can't sustain at all...so no.

For the last year Graves has showcased why anything remotely close to what you suggest is a horrible idea.

Technically mages do get sustain from Rod of Ages/Catalyst of Aeons by spending mana. That was Riot's idea for replacing spellvamp. Unfortunately, it sucks. It's not viable on half the champion pool and worthless (healing wise) outside the laning phase.

Supreme Senpai692 votes

Should just increase HP regen then honestly. Other roles have to do that :/

Spaceman5pff5 votes

You mean, like NOT putting lifesteal on Mercurial Scimitar, thus voiding Bloodthirster of its place in the DPS build path?

Maximum Morde3 votes

Would be nice. Don't really think Botrk needs it either, but that particular item is so hurting at the moment that it's hard to justify that change.

Spaceman5pff2 votes

I think they can drop the standard lifesteal off of the Botrk and just amp the healing based on the passive.

Depárt2 votes

Lmao suggesting BoTRK needs a nerf.

Maximum Morde7 votes

Did you miss the part where I said the item is hurting really bad at the moment so nerfing it is really hard to justify?

Guyy Fieri4 votes

Greivous wounds bro

Reikken27 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gnarles Barkleyy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MJqW9Ei9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-09-06T14:13:51.797+0000)

Greivous wounds bro

if it were available on any tank items

Fear the Harvest34 votes

Still think it'd be a nice addition to Thornmail

DeathBot6662 votes

That's a really good idea. You should make a thread on it.

Spaceman5pff7 votes

Many people have, they just get downvoted into oblivion by salty adc mains

Another solution could be to make thornmail build out of a Wardens Mail and give it the attack speed slow for hitting you, then shift randuins to be a chain vest item with higher HP as compensation for loss of passive, then adjust cost accordingly.

Not xPeke5 votes

No it's not being downvoted by salty ADC mains. It's just a silly idea. Being salty has nothing to do with it. And I'm not even an ADC main. If anything it's tank mains being salty at the fact that, surprise surprise, ADCs outscale you in the end game.

You can't even damage a tank with Thornmail as it is without at least Bloothirster. And even that isn't enough against a Rammus + Thornmail for example. Lifesteal is the only counter to thornmail, and you want to counter the ONLY counter there is against it?

How do you expect an ADC to ever damage, let alone kill, any champion that builds Thornmail? Please enlighten me.

No thanks, this idea clearly wasn't thought through enough.

As for your second paragraph on this comment I actually like that idea more.

The grevious wounds on Thornmail however is a no no 100% no.

God King Aatrox3 votes

there's this thing called maw. Considering the fact that the damage return is magic based you can actually (hope i dont lose you now) lower it by buying MR items, maw is perfect, if not merc scimmy, which gives you both MR and LS.

Not xPeke4 votes

How about you drop the condescending attitude and come down to planet earth?

It's oh so easy to say "buy this buy that". Sure, in the ideal scenario. With the good amount of gold. At the right point in the game.

Not every ADC can afford to build a Maw as a 2nd or 3rd item because of thornmail without a severe hit to their power.

And Maw alone + Botrk wouldn't outheal the Thornmail anyway.

So.. if you're talking late game and you consider buying those item in addition to other items (especially lifesteal) then sure you have a point, if not you really don't.

But be specific and realistic when giving "tips" which is just a bunch of gibberish with no actual facts given. You are not providing appropriate scenarios or realistic turn of events, nor viable build paths. While it's true that one should not stick to one and only one build path every game he plays, it is also true that some items just don't fit, or at least won't fit because a certain champ may or may not need at least a couple core items in a specific order before expanding to some defensive items. You don't even know if the ADC in this case would have enough gold for it, if he's behind, or if the tank is ahead and built an even earlier Thornmail. THINK before you type.

God King Aatrox2 votes

because going on a long rant because i stated a viable item to stop thorn from hurting you is a great way to start an argument. I'm not here to start a fight.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

I am not for Greivous Wounds on thornmail. I am for a Wardens Mail path for Thornmail, and a chain vest for randuins.

Not xPeke1 votes

And I do like your idea regarding changing the build path of the item.

My questions were more of a retorical question. Not necessarily saying YOU are for it or not. You might not be for GW on thornmail but the person you replied to and others in this thread and in another thread, are. I replied to you because you made a comment on salty ADCs which is just so far from the truth. Because like I said I'm not an ADC main even though I do play it often enough.

So mainly wanted to point out that it's not salty ADCs, it's just a stupid idea.

Spaceman5pff2 votes

You might not be salty but 98% of them are because once they were 200 hp with a quadra kill and tried to kill the enemy Malphite with item 3143 item 3075 item 3047 item 3068 and ended up dying themselves

Ryuyah2 votes

Thornmail with a passive that reduces the amount dealt back to the attacker?

Thornmail scales with enemy attack speed that's why it's good against Kog

Tormentula4 votes

item 3165 item 3123 summoner 14

This is back to the days of "mundo has no counters" theory... seriously somebody build or take these, they're actually good.

sirwaterfles9 votes

Not that good on on tanks though. And what i wrote is what i feel in a normal game with 1 ingite and a morrello on the midlaner. Plus say ignite is the answer and we all just have to run 3 ignites per team again i think this would dull the game and make less champs viable just like tp every lane was. Its fine if its a nice counterplay to certain champs like mund,vlad,soka,... but with the current lifesteal in the game almost every adc is a healing monster.

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

Maybe that's because tanks aren't supposed to be solo diving and killing the ADC? Ever thought about that one?

sirwaterfles2 votes

where did i even suggest this?

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

By the fact that you're asking for a grevious wounds item for tanks. That's not a tanks job, that's a carries job.

sirwaterfles5 votes

im not, im asking for less lifesteal. And why is it a carries job to aply gevious wounds? have you never had a leo,blitz,tresh,ali or naut sup with ignite?

Depárt3 votes

Why would you ask for less lifesteal?

It is such a necessary stat on adcs by fault of their design. Take away lifesteal and the entire marksman class and quite a few other AD champions completely fall out of viability no matter what "compensation buffs" they put in.

Lifesteal does nothing to help adcs with their main counter, which is getting caught and blown up.

It allows them to stay in fights and out on the map longer to do their job, which is consistently put out damage and take objectives quickly.

Hinagiku335 votes

The only reason Marksmen need to be instantly 100-0 in the first place is because their massive lifesteal lets them heal back to full in 2 seconds.

If Marksmen lose some sustain and poke damage is actually allowed to stick, then melee champions like Assassins and Fighters wouldn't be so pressured to make Marksmen wonder why their screen suddenly turned grey.

Heck, if we lowered up front damage a bit and made Marksmen actually deal sustained DPS instead of their current sustained burst then we wouldn't have cancerous off tank builds being required to keep melee viable.

Spaceman5pff2 votes

Well with how long tp takes the days i am seriously considering swapping to a combat summoner in top lane

Guyy Fieri1 votes

There is no reason, at least for mid game, tanks can't dip 800 gold into executioners calling if they need it. Is it optimal for full build, no but te hope is that by the time you are full build, you won't need it anymore.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gnarles Barkleyy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MJqW9Ei9,comment-id=000100000002,timestamp=2016-09-06T22:45:57.221+0000)

There is no reason, at least for mid game, tanks can't dip 800 gold into executioners calling if they need it. Is it optimal for full build, no but te hope is that by the time you are full build, you won't need it anymore.

ok, this is just plain retarded.

by that logic we could have said adc dont need mercurial, damage reduction, or magic damage shields. they could have just invested into a zonyas. its not like most of them dont have ap scalings in their kit.

if everyone would actually start buying executioners, just to cope with adc lifesteal, riots first reaction would be to nerf the item or change it somehow so it become less cost efficient for tanks.

notice me Sin pi4 votes

when enemy team has Soraka Darius Vladimir Warwick (and any adc with item 3072 ), im a support, and no one in my team builds item 3165 item 3123 so i end up building morello myself...

at least in this case as a (poke) support, I can get a grievous wound item myself to make up for the team's bad itemization. The real problem is that tanks have no item that give grievous wound, putting them in elo hell if other teammates dont build them.

Limrick4 votes

Morello only applies Grievous Wounds to targets under 35% HP. As a support, good luck with that.

Saianna4 votes

Pros of removing (or nerfing) Life steal:

  1. Healing supports can be buffed, creating alot more needed healing class (like soraka, but even more heals)
  2. ADCs won't outheal from 1 to full from assassin combo in few seconds
  3. No more "ADCs get everything, mages mid supports can go fk themselves" motive (I still rememeber WOTA)
  4. No more retarded situations that ADC goes into melee and still wins, cause much crits with 400 heals.
  5. No more "Thornmail is weak" threads, as it;s job is to counter life steal, thus it's a win for all

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