We need more AD tanks.

sirwaterfles·Apr 25, 2017·12 votes·2,401 views

I love playing ccheavy tanks. Only problem is apart from poppy they all deal ap damage. I get how this came to be but poppy showed that it is possible to make an ad tank that has enough impact to not just be ignored. I would like to have at least one more for compositional reason and my personal champion pool plus it has been since thamkech that we last had a new tank.

edit: a lot of people seem to tink that ad tank is tank with great ad scaling that builds ad items. Its not. Its a a tank that builds (almost) full tank and deals mostly physical damage.

68 Comments

EndlessSorcererApr 25, 20174 votes

Sion is about half-physical half-magic, so I'd recommend trying him if you haven't already.

Sire HippingtonApr 26, 20174 votes

Not against a new ad-tank, but poppy osn't the only

(mega) Gnar JarvanIV Sion

And then there are some other champs that can be used as ad tank aswell.

I think that Seju Rework would have some great potential for an ad-tank: switch Q to physical damage, move the %hp scaleing from W to Q, lett the W scale of total ad.

sirwaterflesApr 26, 20173 votes

Being tanky =/ being a tank. Garen/darius can become incredible hard to kill but they arent tanks. THey are juggernauts, champs that require their hp live long enough to deal their damage while tanks are more about their cc. Then sion does mixed damage with in a lot of cases even slightly more magic unless you build him with enough ad items. Mega gnar you are completely right but its only his mega form which takes a lot of time to set up and is only around 1/4 of the time playing him. J4 i never really played and has been a long time since i last saw one that went with the tank build so cant really comment on that one. About sej yeah could work but i dont think that putting ´%hp on her q would be that great since it would take to much powerbudget on it. Its more of a mobility, setup ability simular well actually exactly the same as gragas e.

Sire HippingtonApr 26, 20172 votes

J4 has alot of utillity and can easily engage fights. Aoe %armorshred, aoe AS buff, aoe knockup on rather low cd, aoe slow, the arena from his ult. He has all the needed tools to keep his damage somewhat relevant without off items while enableing his team with utillity, which is what one expects from a tank.

For the 'otehr chamops', i'm not talking about darius or garen, more about Vi(lowish cd hard cc on Q, save lockdown for engage(vanguard) with ult, good synergie with iceborn for slows, or Xin, low cd knock up on Q, a decent slow on the dash, Aoe kockback+stun that can work for engage and disengage, even yasuo could work decent as tank, low cd aoe knockup, the aditional lockdown of the ult, his windwall, he offers a quite alot outside of just damage.

Also, it seems you mean 'physical damage' tanks rather than ad tanks. Physical damage is the damage type, ad is the scaleing. Those two are often related but frankly not the same. I personaly would prefer ad-tanks, so champs that can do well with onyl 1 hybrid item like BC or Iceborn, but also have the option to go a bit more agressive in their builts. Thats why i shoved the % hp scaleing on Sejus Q, it makes thematically more sense(well, atleast for me HP =body mass, so her chargeing in fullspeed scaleing off hp(mass) makes alot of sense). I also don't think it's that bad to add some more damage to it, it has alot counterplay(can be dodged/bodyblocked). It's not exactly uncommon to have a good bit of your damage on the mobillity/setup tool, Zac, Amumu, Mao, Vi, J4 all have their highest damage on their mobillity/cc skills. To be an AD-tank, she'd need some decent **ad-**scaleings, and her W would be the most fitting place for that, but haveing both a total ad scaleing and hp scaleing on it would certainly be overkill.

RalanrApr 26, 20171 votes

Technically J4 isn't considered a tank anymore, but a diver.

Sire HippingtonApr 26, 20172 votes

He might not be considert one and rarly is used as one after the ult damage buffs that just made ad-builts so much stronger on him, but he still has all the tools needed to clasify as a proper vanguard.

RalanrApr 26, 20171 votes

Apparently not enough by Riot's standards because he's classified as a diver by them.

Sire HippingtonApr 26, 20172 votes

seriously: who cares about the exact classification by riot?

RalanrApr 26, 20171 votes

If it helps to explain why Mundo should be able to kill you by building straight health, I'll support it.

MissingKayoApr 25, 20172 votes

I'm not sure how it matters. You're not playing a tank for damage in the first place. Their damage isn't going to be that meaningful either way.

RalanrApr 25, 20171 votes

It allows for more alternative builds. Ever try juggernaut Sion? It's fun.

NiaphimApr 26, 20171 votes

Except OP is asking for a TANK, not a juggernaut.

RalanrApr 26, 20171 votes

And I want a tank as well, just with more physical damage scaling over magic.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want a tank that suddenly hurts as much as a juggernaut while still being as tanky as a tank. Obviously there needs to be a way to prevent this. That's why I keep pointing to Sion. He both lacks the sustain of juggernauts and the reliable damage of one.

An AD tank should have a juggernaut off build, but it should definitely be inferior in practice because of how unreliable it is and how squishy it ends up making them (AD Sion can get big, but the lack of resistances can bite him in the ass).

sirwaterflesApr 25, 20172 votes

Its still atleast 20k damage at the end of the game and can change the itemisition(order) of the opposing team.

Big LincolnApr 25, 20172 votes

ok but if they're going to be able to buy better hybrid items than AP tanks can usually afford they shouldn't be mobile

DunkinNoobsApr 26, 20171 votes

AD tanks don't work simply due to how AD scaling works in this game. Due to the nature of AD scaling, a tank with such scaling would either have AD ratios so high that people don't play them as a tank JarvanIV , or so low that people don't bother building AD on them at all Poppy . The only AD tank that's even come close to reaching a balance is Sion , and he leans towards the no AD side when he's considered good with his AD builds being relegated to Solo Q cheese.

sirwaterflesApr 26, 20171 votes

ad tanks =/ a tank that builds ad items. Poppy is a tank that deals sufficiant damage to be relevant while building full tank. This was long thought to be impossible with how armor worked and how much there was around in a game. That is why all the older tanks all do atleast half ap damage : Amumu Gragas Malphite Maokai Nautilus Rammus Shen Sion TahmKench Zac Poppy however showed that it is possible and i think it would be a nice adition to the game and a role that isnt fully saturated like the ap tanks around. You got an ap tank for almost every situation (unless rito finds a new special way they have done it before so here is me hoping they will again :p) but as ad you only got poppy who is great in a lot of situations but still leaves some areas to be desired.

DunkinNoobsApr 26, 20171 votes

The problem with Poppy is that, in order to make her AD tank identity work, you need to load her up on spammable %hp damage so she actually has a chance at dueling other tanks. Armor+HP items are busted and have been for a damn long time, and the only way you can even hope to compete with them 1v1 is if you have %hp damage from somewhere, whether it's from your kit or from Botrk. Any other AD tank would need the same %hp damage that Poppy has or they end up like Jarvan and just build AD instead of tank.

sirwaterflesApr 26, 20171 votes

Almost all the tanks have some %hp damage in their kits or have magicdamage that scales of resistenced/hp. Why would it be bad if we had another ad tank with these systems inplace?

DunkinNoobsApr 26, 20171 votes

I mean, you could, but what's the point? We already have Poppy.

sirwaterflesApr 26, 20172 votes

i would like for the new champion to be a tank since its been ages since the last one
like i said poppy only covers half the aspects of the tanktypes out there
what if poppy is really weak or banned? Its alright it that takes poppys kit and strengts out but not that it takes all ad tanks out.
by the same logic i can say what is the point of xayah as we already have an immobile kite heavy adc, yet she does fill a role that is different from ashe

NiaphimApr 26, 20171 votes

No. You are confusing tanks with juggernauts. If you are playing a true tank, you build all defensive, or at most one hybrid item, and don't give a damn about scalings. Most of their damage comes from their base values and items like sunfire. If you want to build a couple offensive items (e.g. triforce) , you are talking about a juggernaut, not a tank, since they do exactly that, even with some cc. And we already have many ad juggernauts.

/edit Also, because of items like triforce, it is harder to balance ad tanks (and Poppy WAS a balancing nightmare for a while even after rework). Either they have garbage bases or they have a bruiser level damage with a single triforce.

sirwaterflesApr 26, 20171 votes

Wat? only talked about tanks and didnt say anything about scaling. I would think that if i was talking about a tank it was implied we were working with base values and prob %hp somewhere but why does that always have to be magic damage since poppy showed it can work with physical damage to.

NiaphimApr 26, 20171 votes

Thematically tanks are meant to disrupt fights. They serve as a frontline and try to distract enemy carries as much as possible with different types of CC. Most types of CC are tied to magic skills (or at least it is much easier to make a tank kit with AP skills), so you have to try really hard to make a true tank with AD scalings and not create another juggernaut. And personally I would not call Poppy a healthy example of a tank. She is only tolerable when slightly underpowered.

RalanrApr 26, 20171 votes

Sion.

sirwaterflesApr 26, 20173 votes

Yes but why do those ccabilities have to be magic damage? Take alistar: headbut does magic damage but wont physical take way more sence? Not all cc comes from magic abilites like magical trees wraping around you but can also come from a big man slamming is axe to the ground.

SzGamer227Apr 26, 20171 votes

Alistar is an old champ, so I'm not surprised that his physical attacks are dealing magic damage. Anything went in ye olden dayse of champion developmente.

RalanrApr 26, 20171 votes

And for some reason it's magical.

RalanrApr 26, 20176 votes

Both Poppy and Sion (also mega Gnar) are tanks with AD scalings.

Basically he's asking for more tanks that have AD scaling abilities. Being AD isn't what separates a tank from a juggernaut, that's usually decided by varying amounts of CC.

And the fun part about AD tanks is it gives them a bit more diversity in their builds because they can benefit off juggernaut items at the cost of losing some tank items (and because tanks normally lack the sustain of a juggernaut, an AD tank building some damage over defense ends up being a bit squishier and doesn't last as long in an extended fight).

Most tanks have mainly AP scalings, which really limits the diversity in their builds because of the low amount of"AP bruiser" items.

Plus AD tanks are easier to resist because everyone has scaling armor.

NiaphimApr 26, 20172 votes

Good points, and I'm not entirely against the concept. I mean, why not? It is just that AD champions can possibly abuse damage items that tend to be problematic.

Also, there is another part of the problem, that is, like you said, AP bruiser itemisation is worse in comparison to AD, which makes AD champs more fun to play. I think Riot needs to fix itemisation problems, that alone could make playing tanks more fun.

RalanrApr 26, 20172 votes

Imo a good way to balance out an AD tank is to make it so the on hit benefits of AD items (a big reason why you grab an AD item) isn't that good for them.

Sion for example can use spellblade and on hit items, but he doesn't really auto attack enough to gain that much benefit from them (unless he's in his passive. But he has to die first).

And (personal bias speaking) I'd much rather see more tanks open to AD itemization than more variety in AP itemization (AP itemization needs variety for sure, but it needs to solve the problem of mages holding those items hostage) simply because I enjoy the thematics of AD over AP.

I want to hit people with physical might, not magical power. That's a big reason why I hate that all of Alistar's abilities do magic damage.

SzGamer227Apr 26, 20171 votes

AD Tanks don't build AD items, just like AP Tanks don't build AP items.

Poppy item 3068 item 3025 item 3065 item 3143 item 3026 AD tank. No AD items. Sion item 3110 item 3075 AD tank. No AD items. Nautilus AP tank. No AP items. TahmKench item 3742 AP tank. No AP items.

The only difference between AD tanks and AP tanks is if how you build them if you want to do a gimmicky damage build, in which case you build AD tanks like a juggernaut (or go full AD) and build AP tanks with Rod of Ages (or go full AP).

EndlessSorcererApr 26, 20172 votes

The difference is (or should be) the type of damage dealt.

Physical-damage tanks and magical-damage tanks would be a clearer term for them.

Also, tanks can build offensive stats without using a gimmicky damage build. Great options (depending on the champion) are: item 3022 item 3748 item 3071 item 3001 item 3151

SzGamer227Apr 26, 20171 votes

Black Cleaver, Frozen Mallet, and Titanic Hydra are juggernaut items, and Abyssal and Liandry's are mage items even if they provide defensive stats. I for one am comfortable saying that one class building items that are designed for another class is a gimmick build.

When the difference between a tank's build Sion item 3742 item 3065 item 3143 item 3075 item 3026 and a juggernaut's build Darius item 3071 is switching out a defensive item with a hybrid defense/offense item then I think hairsplitting the definition of a tank is necessary.

Physical/magic damage tank is clearer when it comes to expressing what you mean, but AD/AP tank is a lot faster to say/type.

EndlessSorcererApr 26, 20172 votes

Black Cleaver, Frozen Mallet, and Titanic Hydra are juggernaut items, and Abyssal and Liandry's are mage items even if they provide defensive stats

They are items which can be situationally built on tanks.

Abyssal Scepter and/or Liandry's Torment are common purchases on many tanks (i.e. Sejuani, Zac, Amumu) whenever they want higher damage output due to their synergy with their kit.
Titanic Hydra is a common purchase on Shen due to the burst/sustained damage and waveclear it provides.
Black Cleaver is a situational purchase on Poppy when she needs to handle durable opponents.

When the difference between a tank's build and a juggernaut's build is switching out a defensive item with a hybrid defense/offense item then I think hairsplitting the definition of a tank is necessary.

It doesn't have to be changed because that isn't how you define roles.

Champion roles are determined based on the champion's kit and playstyle rather than their build.

JerzeyDevilApr 26, 20171 votes

I agree there are some tanks that can be built well as AD, but what about Champs like Xin, Trynd, and Wu Kong? On Xin, I always build Trinity force, BoRK then go completely tanky on Xin and do well, very well... To me the definition of a LoL tank is the ability to soak dmg for your team n live; Trynd, Xin and Wukong do that tremendously well while still dealing a lot of damage, but dont survive as well as Sion, Naut and others which is why Sion and Naut dont easily to a ton of dmg, if they did they would always be picked/banned.

All of the items/runes/mastery exist to make almost any toon tanky, it's usually a personal choice and up to the player to build n play tanky. Naturally some champions are better designed to tank is all, but there are champions who can most certainly be turned into tanks if the player chooses and Xin, Wu, Trynd come to mind among others.

RalanrApr 26, 20171 votes

Tanks are a little more than just soaking damage and surviving. Usually they are teamfight starters or frontline peelers who are heavy on disruption.

JerzeyDevilApr 26, 20171 votes

Right on, Was trying to keep comment short as possible n to point, thus some things like this get left out... Regardless Wu, Xin, and Trynd ALL meet those qualities in one way or another. Wu for example can easily initiate a team fight IF he chooses to build tanky as well as be Very disruptive; He has engages and disengages as well as AoE knockup.... Yes Please.

RalanrApr 26, 20171 votes

Granted divers and vanguards do share the initiation quality. So it can blur the lines.

I'd argue that Wukong isn't a tank because that's the only hard CC he has and he wouldn't be able to do much else in a teamfight after using it.

sirwaterflesApr 26, 20171 votes

I love playing ccheavy tanks

You are discribing more the difference between divers and skirmishers. If you go tankbuild wukong you got a nice bruiser; can deal meaningfull damage and shreds armor for your carries while being able to take punishment. That isnt a tank however. A tank is naturrally tanky from his base stats and gets most things done with his cc. Else i could also say that cammille or irellia are tanks.

JerzeyDevilApr 26, 20171 votes

Like I said, True Tanks Like Leona are best, BUT Bruisers/Item tanks can more than do the job and obviously do, cause many games go without a true tank being picked... So, other capable toons fill the role and some do it very well. Hence - tanks. I hear ya though,

sirwaterflesApr 26, 20171 votes

oke i get what you are saying but those just dont cut it for me. You can work with burstmage, control mage or an apassassin as your magicsource. Doesnt mean lux players were trilled when ekko came out. i just want a new real tank to play with :)

JerzeyDevilApr 26, 20172 votes

Yeah, real tanks are always best! It would certainly be cool to see another AD focused Tank to the game. Maybe a Lethality type of passive linked to health and/or resistance. Along with some cool zoning abilities... like if Poppy and Azir/Anivia had a kid... I dunno, sure there are much better ideas out there, but yeah. Right now my favorite tanks are Naut and Leona, they are just so good at what they do in a support role IMO. With all that said, nothing beats a True tank :)

Have a great day man!

Friendly RamApr 26, 20171 votes

Does trundle count? 1 slow 1 slow+ knockup and a statstealer.

RalanrApr 26, 20171 votes

Nope. Juggernaut.

sirwaterflesApr 26, 20171 votes

THE anti tank being a tank would be funny ;p

The Yetii RiderApr 26, 20171 votes

Tanks need magic damage because jungle monsters don't have MR.

Poppy has higher than usual wave clear for a tank, which has proven to be a headache since her rework.

Tanks in general are primarily intended to jungle or support. Therefore they need magic damage to function.

sirwaterflesApr 27, 20171 votes

Wasnt their armor greatly reduced and swapped for hp?

The Yetii RiderApr 27, 20171 votes

It's still there. Any amount of armor is higher than 0.

My Waifu VanillaApr 26, 20171 votes

AD Tanks would at least make it less likely the tank does too much damage. The reason Mao, Naut, Zac, and such all do so much damage is because half the roster doesn't have MR scaling (having 39 MR at 18 isn't going to change anything after mid season) so they take near true damage from their higher bases whereas someone like Sion has to deal damage to 60+ base Armor while having close to the same amount of base damage in his kit.