Honestly: People want Riot to cover for their bad decisions/play too much

chipndip1··79 votes·3,402 views

The whining I've seen on the game play boards recently just throws me for a loop. It's like people don't even know what game they're playing these days. Or rather, they know what the game is and they'd rather be playing "League of insert summoner name here" instead.

League is part dynamic gameplay, yes, but it's PART STRATEGIC. No one seems to give two flips about the latter half of the game, though. Yes, that means team comps always matter. Yes, that means if you pick the only tank in your comp and go full ad, you're a moron. No, the game shouldn't have to be bent and twisted to compensate for your pre-game or in-game stupidity in this regard. If you have an abundance of split pushers, no one's gonna hold objectives for you to split. If you have an abundance of utility champs, you put extreme emphasis on your few damage dealers. If you have a crap ton of assassins, know that you don't have utility and you invested a shit ton into the early game. If you intentionally disregard certain elements of the game, you can't just up and complain about it when you get rolled by those elements in the game. The issue is that people act like this game's balanced like a fighting game. That's part of it, yeah, but not all of it. You're gonna have bad match-ups, you're gonna have to worry about who's who and who's doing what, and no, you can't do everything yourself, nor is it a smart idea to balance a team game so that you consistently can.

How many times are we gonna whine about meta/champs? And I don't mean the usual whining. I mean the whining that caused the assassin update. THAT whining. If it isn't a tank meta, everyone wants it to be a tank meta. If it IS a tank meta, everyone complains about fighters being bad. When assassins are one-shotting targets, everyone wants Riot to add counter-play to "no counter-play, face-roll assassins". When they add that to those champs, now we're bitching about adcs not being killed. When Riot's doing champ updates in bulk, everyone complains about how they hate class updates. When class updates are officially dropped, people start talking about wanting that "Diver update" that was in the pipeline.

Now, we could go on with this for a LONG time, but the point is: Regardless of if these things were good or bad things to complain about, are you guys upset because they're actually issues or because you just don't like X and you want something to happen? Perfect example being game length. In season 5, no...not every champ was good. Every LATE GAME CHAMP was good. Early game bullies had it rough as hell in season 5 during Cinderhulk's early months and team comps could have up to 3 tanks at a time, with comps regularly having at least 2 tanks. Games would go on for 40+ minutes almost consistently, and Jinx/Vayne were CONSTANTLY complained about, which led Riot to eventually nerf the absolute crap out of Jinx (to the point where she's kinda shit, tbh). And now we got thread after thread begging Riot to force game lengths to be longer than now. Why? Makes no sense. We have a solid mix of early and late game champs being strong picks right now. Why would we fuck that over? It makes even LESS sense when people also want hyper carries like Twitch to be nerfed at the same time. HELLO? These two complaints don't even add up together.

The circle jerk is probably the worst offender. The Yasuo and Fiora jerks are probably the worst of them all, but seriously, these circle jerks are just too damn much. Like...let's take Twitch's circle jerk, for example. If I go to LeagueofGraphs, Twitch has about a 51.6% win rate atm (for Diamond, anyway). Now, a Rioter specifically commented on Twitch (forget which) and said "Rain or shine, Twitch usually sits on about a 'pretty solid' win rate because his kit allows him to exploit elements that thrive in solo queue more than organized play". Makes sense if you think on it. When Censer was strong, Twitch had about a 52% win rate. Censer's not strong? Still around 52%. Some champs just abuse solo queue, and Twitch most likely is that type of guy. Hell, the highest win rate solo queue marksman isn't even Twitch according to this site. It's fucking Draven at almost 55% after the Censer nerfs brought down all the hyper carries. So why the hell is everyone and their G-ma on Twitch for basically existing in stasis? Should Twitch just get Sejuani'd? Is that how balancing should be? Champs should just "take turns being good"? Is that the answer we're looking for?

My issue isn't necessarily having a complaint. That's fine. My issue stems from complaints that look like people just want Riot to fix the game to cater to them specifically rather than looking at why something may be the way it is.

85 Comments

Troll for Trump36 votes

Your entire post is based on the idea of the League of Legends community being one hive mind.

It isn't, that's why there's always going to be conflict of interests and complaining.

It's not that they don't see why something exists. They do, it just doesn't benefit them, so they complain.

The battle of interests and appealing to said interests creates the rotating metas. It's basically like politics.

chipndip17 votes

Here's the thing: Sometimes it IS.

It's literally the primary reason we reworked assassins, as well as what caused the Skarner debacle during the juggernaut patch. It also canned Dynamic Queue and caused that major turn-around from "ADC in 2017" to "ADC ripping a fat bullet in my ass in 2017".

There's some instances where the community collectively causes a swing or two in how things are done in the game when Riot caters to the uproar. This post attempts to focus on those, although it also attempts to call out those generally whiny posts I see on here.

Troll for Trump17 votes

And, in the very few times when the community decides to agree, that shows generally there's a problem in whatever topic is being discussed.

Assassins were generally agreed by everyone to be problematic in one way or another for a long time. Almost everyone hated Dynamic Queue I'm not sure about the ADC one, so I won't talk about it.

In those few cases, Riot should cater to the community.

This season, for instance; how long have people complained about runes? Riot is finally addressing them, and their absurd IP cost points of entry. Everyone hated runes, Riot listened, and they're right to do so.

Some of those posts were probably whiny, but are you saying that, when the League community finally agrees on something, Riot should ignore them?

chipndip13 votes

Depends

In the case of assassins, listening to the community just royally nerfed assassins. Now we're all whining about marksmen going around unpunished, but the assassin rework was the first instance of Riot dislodging the burst > tank > sustain relationship by adding delays to assassin burst. Yeah, people appreciate them as opponents (a bit) more, but playing AS them is significantly less rewarding.

Riot doesn't ALWAYS make the right choice by listening to the community if the community itself is making the wrong choice, which we have a few examples of at this point.

Corvid2 votes

Heres the assassins are weak circlejerk in action, ladies and gentlemen. Im going to go dumpster an immobile mage with Katarina/Zed/Leblanc/Fizz now.

Assassins are more fair then ever now. I think "Oh man, that guy is good. I misplayed that" when I die to them now. I dont think "Man, leblanc is bs" when im killed. The problem is, assassins are actually hard to play now. They are all skill expressive in their kits rather then waiting for key abilities to be used. You want tank ekko and fizz back? Those where only killed because riot succeeded in adding delay to them. They added a delay to ekko passive and fizz's mark, and that succeeded in removing the "toxic" playstyles.

I will NEVER miss being oneshot from stealth by rengar. NEVER.

Reworking assassins was the BEST thing riot ever did. Katarina is so much more fun then she used to be, and highly rewards skill with her kit. She has actual skill expression now, instead of just waiting. Leblanc is still as good as ever, while remaining fair. Sure you can flash her damage as shes waiting for the delay, but thats what makes her fair. If she gets the sigil proc off, it HURTS. Talon now fills a niche and feels GOOD to play, and is much more memorable then the guy that popped into vision for 2 seconds before oneshotting your entire team. Rengar... ill admit he got the short end of the stick, but change the Q and hes back to being a good and satisfying champion. His new ult and necklace are steps in the right direction, but the Q is what made his rework bad.

You want a bad class rework, go look at what happened to Quinn. Yet no one misses her, its all "MAH ASSASSINS"

LordGeovanni1 votes

Rengar could be spotted out had an indicator and had to combo so it wasnt a one shot you just and to stick close to some one with cc as a squishy but wait all the tanks cc is now delayed and does no damage so there is no one to cc to save you any more. What was more bs was instant katarina e ult which she still has she just has ways to do more damage on top of that and get back out now. zed insta combo after ult which he can still do before you can react sure you may able to stun him after he has done enough damage so that his ult is sure to kill and maybe you kill him after but he still got his target though its not likely for you to get him. Assassins should have either get in or get out skills not both and all skills with longer. cooldowns and less base damage and more scaling damage enough to kill adcs and mages but not duel it out with fighters and tanks. either was still better than adcs doing the same thing from range at least assassins had delay on their second round on spells before when they were strong but didnt snowball adcs dont have that delay unless is versus another adc (not that it exists just that you either are the dominant adc or you arent in an adc versus adc fight and you just the most dominant champion otherwise)

Dokueki Kenshin1 votes

Ya know, I feel where you’re coming from about Quinn, but not gonna lie: I actually prefer new Quinn, lol.

Troll for Trump1 votes

People had differing opinions on whether assasins were OP or not.

What people agreed on were that a large majority of assassins were innately toxic, because of their oneshots. Pre-rework Rengar or Talon (esp. Rengar), or LB's early just being cancerous for everyone.

Listening to the community led to Riot extending the burst windows of assassins to make the game healthier, and they buffed their dmg to accomodate for this. Some of the reworks were failures yes, but that applies to all class updates.

Assassins fell off not so much because of direct nerfs, but because of more focus on teamfights and more shielding/healing being buffed. Tanks rising to dominance in top/jg doesn't help with that either.

Most people felt that it wasn't right for assassins to be killing tanks, as tanks were supposed to be a "counter class."

It's more rewarding for people playing against assassins, but it's also good for slightly less people to be complaining about assassins. The other improvements to assassins were Riot giving them more variable itemization and uniqueness through reworks. They tried to make a way for assassins to kill adcs easily but not be so effective vs tanks.

While I would say the assassin rework wasn't as good as it could've been, it wasn't horrible. Just kinda average.

What other examples are there of the entire community being wrong?

chipndip11 votes

The jugs patch is the first primary example that comes to my mind. Whole community complained about most of the jugs feeling too weak on PBE. They came to live and just rolled everyone. I was a Silver to Gold player at the time, but all my draft picks had each jug banned every game unless one was picked until it all got ironed out.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Community: Juggs too weak

Riot: Overbuffs

Community: Juggs too strong

Riot: Nerfs

Community: Juggs are fine now

Riot: Good

The community wasn't wrong in this case; Juggs were weak, and so they got buffed. The buffs may have been a little over-the-top for some of them, but it eventually got ironed out.

The community would be wrong if they said Juggs were weak when they actually weren't, but the Juggs were actually weak. They only became too strong because of buffs, reworks, and itemization changes, not because they were powerful before Riot decided to rework them

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Community: Juggs too weak

Riot: Overbuffs

Community: Juggs too strong

Riot: Nerfs

Community: Juggs are fine now

Riot: Good

Jugs were never released too weak to know if they were too weak in the first place. People just kept clamoring for buffs when PBE's for functionality testing, not balance testing.

Troll for Trump1 votes

"Juggs too weak" as in the champ pool of juggernauts before they were reworked.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Hive mind? You're thinking sheep. A few charismatic intellectuals stir up some angst against a commonly disliked champion, that's about all there is to it. Even if you take pick/win/ban rates altogether, it's still only going to show you a fraction of what's involved when it comes to complaints, and won't show how effective counterplay is without cross referencing matchups, which the majority don't do. Still then a counterpick isn't necessarily effective based on the knowledge difference between players, and so forth; some people can't peg what they hate specificaly, but can still agree about why they're against something. For example yasou; some hate his mobility, others his windwall, and some his resourcelessness. Of course there can be overlap of who hates what, but when a champion can consistently draw so much aggro regardless of what state they're in, it points to a design flaw. Remember kassadin? The first hypermobile magic assassin, who had several things cut from his kit over years, and was still regularly bashed for being oppressive. Until fizz took his place, then ekko, and now we've got another new champion on the way that appears to be following the same setup. Things like these are why people get up in arms about riot's more recent philosophies in game construction and balancing.

Mephisto31 votes

What are "Riot's most recent philosophies in game construction and balancing"? Would you mind to elaborate or to point me somewhere, I would be extremely interested to learn more!

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Sorry for the delay, couldn't put my finger on some particular links I had in mind, so I'll pull some comparison between pages. Glance through some patch notes, you can change the last number in address to explore. They posted the first couple of seasons patch notes elsewhere/different format, the current one records back to 3.4. http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3005056 https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-310-notes https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-421-notes https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-517-notes https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-69-notes https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-722-notes

How about some criticisms over the years? Side note, don't comment on anything more than a year old, the mods tend to get uppity about 'necroing' regardless if it's for actual discussion. https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/riot-official/nqYvboPJ-patch-421-notes?comment=0107 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/riot-official/Y0Tel1w4-patch-54-notes?comment=0076 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/riot-official/6wazAs3J-patch-524-notes?comment=0069 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/riot-official/yzLExhwR-patch-67-notes?comment=001f0000 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/riot-official/chOkE7Z4-patch-622-notes?comment=0039 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/riot-official/vzEZFcRy-patch-722-notes?comment=00d5 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/agH7yJ3N-it-works-for-overwatch-because-those-games-are-short?comment=0002 https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/OIlmmTbE-watching-zoes-gameplay-looks-like-shes-gonna-have-a-30-win-rate-in-the-start?comment=0004

Anyway I've occasionally gone on my own long specified posts to the subject or issue at hand; to sum up though, it's more that riot has been steadily reducing reasons to be interested over the years. Reworked champions either being negligible stat tweaks, or unrecognizable overhauls; the former often failing to fix the problem, and the later driving away mains without consideration. Removed items that had strange mixes of stats, while keeping some overtuned ones that keep bending balance; crippling flexibility in build paths and enforcing stale repetition. The previous time masteries was massively changed, it caused a make/break because a couple keystones were so much more powerful than others, limiting useful options and here we are putting up with it once again. Blatantly ignoring the pbe feedback when it doesn't entirely approve of their changes, frequently holding favoritism for some champions over others to an obnoxious degree; more recently lowering the standard of entry, allowing a flood of meta-maniacs and otherwise egotistical players to join, making the pbe environment hostile and troublesome to use now. Gutting some champions for being too good at a niche, while letting the generalists continue to bully out anyone who can't keep up. There's been a growing cluster of complaints about how towers are more valuable to the enemy than yourself, for the past three years, yet have been ignored time and again with marginal game-play nudges to say 'we are doing something about it'. Withholding the huge variety of gameplay modes under the excuse of 'not enough resources', then wondering why the game is loosing traction, and instead of undoing or reworking some of the previous changes that lead to this issue, they implement randomized rewards both in and out of game. Esports taking precedence over everything else, including common sense when it comes to quality of life regarding the overwhelming majority of the player base. Crunching the game that used to be about strategy, where early game and late game teams were both equally viable, into a state where early game decides everything; shifting the tense 45 minute neck & neck struggles, into 15 minute stomps. I could expand on any one of these, but I won't in this message as that'd triple the text, lol.

Sagan Forever1 votes

I think the main reason it looks like a hive mind is because of the format of the board. If you are in the minority then you are downvotes to nothingness and almost no one sees your voice. This makes people think the board is a hive mind; when in reality the format of the boards suppresses the other voices in the board.

Troll for Trump1 votes

I'm going to stick with the political analogy.

If you go to a post, it's like going to a blue state or red state in America. It's just going to be mostly circlejerk, in that state. There might be some dissonance, but not enough to overthrow the circlejerk.

Exceptions are when something really big happens.

The Boards, then, are the US as a whole.

The boards system doesn't really surpress expression of different opinions; you can have a buff X thread coexisting with a nerf X thread. What ends up being hive minded are the people viewing and upvoting/downvoting on the post.

Cowseed1 votes

It's basically like politics.

This hits the nail on the head. That's why it feels so shitty to spectate these arguments. Each party is so convinced that they partially throw out most reasonings that don't resonate with whatever point there making. They also are quick to attack the other parties and label them as idiots because they don't think the same way they do.

Hmmmm..... interesting though... But regardless quite annoying most times.

Troll for Trump1 votes

The only way to get rid of political arguments, or any arguments for that matter, is through a hive mind. You won't have the annoying bickering, and the game will become balanced because it will be based on one "mentality" rather than "pro ADC" or "pro assassin" etc.

Cowseed1 votes

I loath hive minds. It basically discourages rationalization and critical thinking and often time the most popular opinion is decided by what opinion can spread the fastest not which is strongest. Basically if we have two roles being strong if word starts to spread that X is stronger than Y faster than Y is faster than X then through a combination of placebo effect and confirmation bias everyone is gonna start saying X is the problem and ignore the bigger picture.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Yes, and the reason you see dissent is because people feel like they need to argue against the hive mind. This includes the people you belittle. In general, any form of dissonance is because people feel like arguing against something they perceive as an established norm of sorts.

Kyunsei9 votes

Agree that witch-hunting some aspect of the game this much just put dev' in a corner that can lead to borderline decision or total /ignore of the boards community (since 90% of time it's only whining)

chipndip110 votes

Like, people here don't even realize just how much they do it, simply because they're mad about their own inability to play the game or just accept that sometimes they messed up or someone else played better than them.

Sewer Side5 votes

Reminds me of the Yenn thread yesterday where he did 3k damage and blamed the loss on the enemy 4-0 Tristana.

Like hold the fuck up, you built damage, only did 3k damage (in 20 mins) despite the game having 2 other lanes to gank or jungler you could be invading.

chipndip13 votes

Yenn is an amazing person.

Athenes Lulu5 votes

Sometimes, you also gotta realize that all these "opposite kinds of complaints" are said by different people. There's always gonna be someone out there that hates this meta, and there's always gonna be someone out there that likes it, whether either is popular opinion or not.

You are probably also aware of this, but I just need to throw this in here.

Geauxx4 votes

Or even the funniest of them all

"i lost to so and so champion so they must be broken op and be nerfed, i didn't consider them being op only until i lost to one"

Then it's even funnier when said champion in most threads is Annie or MasterYi <--- at that point im like "?????"

Teemo Did 9113 votes

yea getting 1 shot by a champion with a single spell sounds like a bad play

chipndip117 votes

This literally has no meaning without more sentences. You need more sentences.

dEAdbUs3 votes

Answer is simple: compare pickrates at championships in Dota and LoL. Nuff said. And Crawler said Riot don't have pickrate as main target. Ooooook let's keep Heimer at 1% playerbase and rework every champion again and again (Swain and Ryze). Should I mention that billionare studio make one champion 6-12 months? When couple indi developers can release world hits after month of work? Riots are living in a dream, and mortal problems and common things such a balance don't interest them. Now tell me how is this community problem and not developer problem?

Ariel the Cruel9 votes

Ooooook let's keep Heimer at 1% playerbase and rework every champion again and again (Swain and Ryze).

Heimer's sole purpose in game is to be a lane bully. People play him because of how effective at it he is. But, by intent, he's really not all that great anywhere/time else.

This is similar to Teemo, who's sole purpose is to annoy the F out of people with completely uninteractive game-play. Which is why he's not allowed to be strong.

Should I mention that billionare studio make one champion 6-12 months?

There was a time when Riot released a champion almost every month. Most of the biggest balance offenders in game now spawned from that period. Champion assembly lines work in the short term. But, for Riot at least, they have proven to be a disastrous long-term strategy.

mortal problems and common things such a balance don't interest them.

Common dilemma: Balance for whom?

  • Top tier play: where consistency, cooperation, and mechanical ability mean everything? Where Lee Sin was god tier for 5 seasons?
  • For bottom tier play: where CS, vision, and communication Meta are often a liability? Where Master Yi and Katarina are consistently god tier?
  • Somewhere in the middle, where both camps become equally nightmarish?
TwitchInMyPants1 votes

League is already balanced somewhere in the middle. Why do you think they've nerfed/reworked champs like Katarina, Master Yi, and Darius when they weren't strong high level? The game isn't some unplayable disaster, it's totally doable. However Riot has to take player impressions and statistics with a grain of salt since people often overreact to what easily beats them.

I'd say high level play is more important since low level learns from them but ignoring low level would be pretty bad for the game's health, simply because it'd make things more demanding for newer/worse players.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

I agree.

My point is that balance is as simple as simply wanting it to happen. Riot makes balance changes every patch. The target of those changes is often variable (See: Censor).

Abibyama2 votes
Ariel the Cruel2 votes

Yes, that means team comps always matter.

We all agree team comps matter. You just have to do them properly! Here's a few helpful examples: Vayne Janna Ivern Galio Taric Vayne Soraka Nautilus Orianna Lulu Vayne Alistar Sejuani Lissandra Shen It's really not that hard.

Signed, You friendly Stereotyped Carry your useless @$$ Cardboard 7 Yolo Queue Neighborhood Vayne Mayn.


When assassins are one-shotting targets, everyone wants Riot to add counter-play to "no counter-play, face-roll assassins".

Assassins legitimately had issues. There where many instances where their only counter-play was to simply not be there. Hell, it got to the point that enchanters, the counter-assassin, was treated as free gold and experience. Since assassins were unloading so fast that supports couldn't even get their responses through the system before somebody died.

Assassin's needed the update. I'll defend that to the end of LoL. But I also agree Riot went a tad too far on many of them. Assassins needed to get any practical counter-play (Other than completely removing the fog of war); not 3-5 second flashing warning signs after landing a skill shot before they're allowed to do anything.


Because you mention ADC's a lot

My personal complaint about ADC's is the strangle hold they have on the game's power distribution. Especially this last season. Generically, they have. . .

  • Strong sustain (Life steal and low mana usage).
  • High consistency (Right-clicking from range)
  • Highest Damage (Multiplicative scaling, woo!)
  • The game's best objective taking ability (Structures only affected by AA's and Ziggs E)
  • And RNGesus (Crit chance)

Their strengths need to be diluted. This isn't about them consistently killing others or not killing others. It's about them being the single strongest class in the game; to the point of being mandatory at all times.


Personal gripes and joke aside. The community isn't a hive mind. The forums aren't a hive mind. Hell, the forums don't even represent a majority of the community! Often what you see on the forums are what's known as the "vocal minority." Happy / Content people have no incentive to speak out. Unhappy people do. Anything that makes one group happy and quite down, will cause another group to start wailing in misery.

Kinnikuko2 votes

Welcome to gaming with patches and forums.

Mephisto31 votes

What is your point?

If "picking the right champion" (either an individual champion or a group of champions) increases your chance of winning, the premise of a game that says "play a champion out of 100+ options" does not hold true. Everybody prefers different types of champions because they fit most to his/ her playstyle.

So, yes, people complain about "meta" when the meta forces THEM to do something they don't want... and, they should have that right, because the game should be balanced enough so that all strategies make sense at all times (or, rather - and I agree with you here - that picking the right strategy counters the wrong strategy of the opposing team)... a constant struggle for Riot's balancing team that they will simply not be able to solve.

You know why? Because they balance based on data over a large sample size of games, and that large sample size ALREADY FOLLOWS the expected meta on average... the mere assumption that a champion should have a 50% win rate on average is leading to an UNBALANCED game, UNLESS that game also follows "the meta" (that was the basis for the 50% win rate) to the letter... so, "picking the right strategy" is not an option that you should ever think about, "picking the right champion within the current meta" is the only choice you need to make. Because that is the WAY the game is balanced in the first place (yes, you may be so great at the game that you can ignore the meta if you play at a level that is significantly below your actual skill, sure... but that doesn't change the fact for the average player).

And obviously, a lot of these problems are further made worse by what players think and assume: nobody knows whether maybe Soraka jungle is exceptional SOMETIMES (ok I am exaggerating...;)), nobody knows whether maybe playing with 2 junglers is a good idea SOMETIMES, nobody knows whether having 2 people mid instead of bot is a good idea SOMETIMES... because if you TRY EVEN ONCE, you tilt your team because they expect everybody to follow a very narrowly defined meta at all times.

Take the example of the Singed Support player with Smite... he EVEN GOT BANNED BY RIOT because he interfered too much with the expectations of other players on his team, ALTHOUGH he explained his strategy AND he had a positive win rate with it...

So, my suggestion is this: stop pretending I am allowed to play all champs, that LOL is some sort of strategy game, that team work is required, all those "would be nice if it were true" assumptions. Just let me pick a role, then offer me only the top champs that are "meta right now" and discard all the others... problem solved (the first step to that was forcing players to select a role... making more or less any not standard setup "unacceptable"... and then changing tower armor, to discourage the remaining "strategic option" of lane swaps). And then we can all finally focus on what LOL is really about: mechanical execution and very short time window tactical decision making... not "strategy" or team work.... you dreamers :)

By the way, that is what pro players are doing all the time: they don't try new strategies, they focus on mechanical execution. Because THAT wins them games, not strategies (see most recent Worlds, if you don't believe that)... at least, they THINK that... (see GBM at Worlds, and consider they had mechanically "equal" players in their roster...).

chipndip11 votes
  1. Fervor Leona isn't a new strategy, guys!

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

  1. You're mixing up "Playing a champ" with "Playing the lanes in a different fashion" in this post.

  2. As far as solo queue goes, there's a time and place for just about any champ you can think of. However, the strategy part of that comes from knowing when to do so. If I'm about to throw out Charizard in a Water-type gym, Pokemon doesn't magically lose its strategic elements because I can't get away with that. It means I either had a stroke and mis-clicked or I was a moron the whole time. You can play something like Shaco or Teemo and win a game in solo queue, or even climb ranked. OBVIOUSLY this becomes harder in a game where you have both a Teemo and a Shaco at the same time. It's up to you to have a small enough champ pool to master a few champs to climb with while having a diverse enough champ pool to cover different drafting scenarios, assuming you care about pre-game odds.

deadlychuck1 votes

I just want to point out, you use pokemon as an example of a strategy game.

But one thing that pokemon does, which league absolutely fails to do now and keeps making worse, is to allow different kinds of the same type. E.g. Every type of pokemon has a pokemon of that type which can be utilized in a particular way, and even the same pokemon which are commonly used for one purpose, can have an off builds which also include many other purposes.


Using your example of the Charizard in a water-type gym...

If I choose to build my Charizard like this

Charizard @ Passho Berry
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

  • Tailwind
  • Sunny Day
  • Solar Beam
  • Roost

Then yes, i would absolutely swap him into a water-type gym.


That's what pokemon, as a strategy game has, that league now lacks, the choice in how you want to to use the tools at your disposal.

DeadUnborn1 votes

nah, what you talk about only applies to d3+. In lower elos as long as you are picking something good and know how to carry with it you can win around 60% of matches and climb up. In lower elos player mentality is far more important than actual team comps. Obviously if you adc decided to go Yasuo adc and panth support and fed their lane 5 kills before the 10 min mark the match is gonna be tough. However if the team picks EASY champs to play and play decent enough you can usually carry them.

SarcasticShepard1 votes

Really, no. I'd be curious to see what your actual mmr is, since I'd characterize that misconception as being the same as basically all upper tier player's I've had the misfortune to interact with.

DeadUnborn1 votes

d5 currently, been playing for 4 1/2 years

Edit: Also I get around 20 LP everytime I win so my MMR is actually higher than that, why you ask?

chipndip11 votes

20 is about average.

Gratz on D5 though.

DeadUnborn1 votes

For diamond is around 14

chipndip11 votes

Not for D5, though. You even out in gains/losses at about 18 or so.

20 isn't bad, though. Gratz, really. I was doing about 18 to 20 when I was struggling endlessly climbing to D3.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

Now, a Rioter specifically commented on Twitch (forget which) and said "Rain or shine, Twitch usually sits on about a 'pretty solid' win rate because his kit allows him to exploit elements that thrive in solo queue more than organized play". Makes sense if you think on it. When Censer was strong, Twitch had about a 52% win rate. Censer's not strong? Still around 52%. Some champs just abuse solo queue, and Twitch most likely is that type of guy

Yet Twitch was consistently picked and was very strong at worlds. If you don't admit he's busted (though Twitch isn't really the problem, it's the entire marksman class because they're all basically carbon copies of one another) you're fucking blind.

chipndip11 votes

He isn't, and he wasn't the big deal at World's more than champs like Kog, Trist, and Xayah were. Hell, more than any marksman, Janna and Lulu pretty much ate up the support role by themselves. Marksmen had at least a decent bit of variety at least. If it didn't, it wasn't Twitch's fault more than it was Trist's...or Kalista's...or Kog's...

deadlychuck1 votes

It's actually really funny though. A substantial number of the people complaining about the way the game is designed, aren't complaining that they aren't doing the things they want. It's that they're doing things that they don't want, to the things which they play. Mind you, there are always complaints about the current meta, because there is always a subset of players who will not like it.

Overall, I'd rather they just stop trying to make the disparity between the optimal and suboptimal choices so massive, or outright removing them so, that you have literally no say in how you play the game. A common complaint is so called "noob traps", but i never heard someone actually falling into one. It's always people who consciously walk into them, because it provides a different gameplay experience.

I'd rather them have never added assassins to the game, because the systems aren't designed to support them.

I'd rather them not have allowed AD to creep into the design space of AP.

I'd rather them not have reworked dragon to provide more flat value to the winning team than the losing team.

I'd rather them not have turned all champions into mono-build, and increasingly mono-stat, champions.

yes, these are my opinions. I don't expect everyone to agree with them, but that's not the point. The point is to express that riot has been designing the game, not for their players, but for their potential players over the years. Which seems fine, so long as you're still in that demographic that's being catered towards, but eventually,** YOU become the players and NOT the potential players. ** As the old players stop playing, and only the most recent set of formerly potential players are overwhelmingly left. This is why riot needed to make another game years ago, or at least actually allow their community to divide between game types, instead of failing to support different game modes and them eventually becoming so decrepit that people abandon them. The problem is that they only support draft 5v5 ranked. That's the only game mode which they ever design anything around and the only game mode which they put any effort into maintenance.

Basically, I don't want them to design the game for me. I want them to stop removing parts of the game, or making them irrelevant to justify later removal, which were designed in a way that I enjoy.

Bârd1 votes

Player: WTF YASUO IS SO BULLSHIT HE JUST ATE MY ENTIRE MF ULT!!!!!

Riot: ...don't ult into windwall?

Player: FUCK OFF

Vekkna1 votes

You said "cover for bad decisions/play" and I thought this was going to be about...

item 3156 item 3053 item 3026 Ekko R Yasuo passive Garen passive Tristana W Twitch Q

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