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Why this videogame should NOT be balanced for pro-tier play

Mira Arya Enthe··33 votes·2,205 views

Let's set aside silly comparisons to random sports or board games. If League was balanced like them then both sides of the map would be identical and both teams would get the exact same champions, runes, masteries and summoners spells.

League is a videogame first and foremost. It is only an E-Sport to a handful of select individuals who play on coordinated teams at top level play. And an E-Sport will only thrive if players themselves enjoy playing the game. This is where E-Sports differ massively from pro-football. Player accessibility. People want to watch the game they play, see the characters they play, the maps they play on.

No level of ruining soloQ with changes like the current meta state, is going to prevent pro-players from using the safest level of cheese comps and best picks they can.

And to all the delusional people in Bronze-Platinum about to say "But I am going to be in challenger tomorrow and X champion is unfair in challenger, while Y champion is worthless there!" No. Just no. Making this game absurdly unbalanced for 99.9% of players because you think you are going to climb from B3 where you have been for four seasons, to challenger this year. Doesn't work.

Riot's philosophy in past seasons was to balanced the game so it is as fair and fun across all tiers as possible. With a slight FOCUS on platinum+ for fine tuning. This season they decide E-Sports have been stale for the past 6 seasons and make all these drastic changes to the rift and masteries.

Look where it got us? The community is miserable, games end in 15 minutes, snowball is to the extreme and E-Sports STILL are passive farm fests.

Now some players are about to take some moral highground and go "But good players should have a balanced game." Newsflash. If you balanced for master through challemger 99% of players are now miserable and coordinated teamplay in pro-League is still a seperate universe. If you balance specifically for coordinated pro-play now everyone else has an imbalanced game. Even if you tried balancing for the best players they will simply find cheese after cheese, and secret OP champions etc. Each hole you plug another will be opened. Or will remain one-tricks who don't care about balance, only their champion.

The solution is simple and always has been. Balance so that all tiers of play have some semblance of fairness and FUN(it's a videogame), fine tune around top end play when it won't jeopardize all other tiers of play. And fix for LCS the things that absolutely break LCS. Rework Linear champions so they stand a chance against none linear champions without being broken in any specific tier. And viola, you have a game that is most fun for the most people.

This game didn't become huge because of Elistist bronze players who act like making the game miserable for themselves is a noble goal. League became huge because it was faster pace and more casual to get into than DOTA. Not needing as much "nerd skills" to be good at.

Rant over

42 Comments

Jeanne fan club8 votes

Here is my question to you, should each champion be balanced around a wide variety of skill levels, ranging from awful to godly? Or should champions be balanced around how strong they are at the pinnacle of performance on them?

The problem with not balancing champions around their pinnacle performance, is that you are disregarding skill as a variable. Skill is supposed to be the most important variable in determining your rank. Balancing champions based on the performance of too many skill levels ( lower elos) gives the false impression that certain champions that are difficult, like azir and zed for example may be too under powered, leading to unnecessary buffs that ruin higher elo. Skill is completely thrown out of the equation there, since the strengths of these champions are not being determined when Skill is at pinnacle performance, but the average of a wide variety so skill levels that most likely will play him incorrectly.

TL:DR: Lower elos influencing champion balance will create imbalance among champions, because it disregards those champions power levels at the pinnacle of player skill, and performance.

WoonStruck3 votes

This exactly.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

Youre only seeing it from one angle.

The inevitable conclusion for balancing around Pro or Challenger play is more than "Balancing champions based on the performance of too many skill levels ( lower elos) gives the false impression that certain champions that are difficult, like azir and zed for example may be too under powered, leading to unnecessary buffs that ruin higher elo." That only describes one aspect of balance - buffing champions who are fine-ish at high tiers of play, but terrible at low tiers.

But remember that balance works in multiple ways. Not only does it keep Azir at trash-tier for lower elos, it must also buff champions who WORK in lower elos but not in Challenger/Pro play. For example, lets take Master Yi or Garen - never played in pros, played by a few mains (or just Cowsep/MarineRevenge) in higher elo, and not a Challenger worthy pick. If we balance around the pros, doesnt that also mean buffing champions like Master Yi and Garen into viability?

TL;DR: Higher elos are already unbalanced. Youre forgetting that "balancing around Challenger" is more than just keeping champions weak - it also means giving some buffs as well. If Garen and Master Yi were viable in Challenger, they would be stupidly OP for 99% of the community,

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

TL;DR: Higher elos are already unbalanced. Youre forgetting that "balancing around Challenger" is more than just keeping champions weak - it also means giving some buffs as well. If Garen and Master Yi were viable in Challenger, they would be stupidly OP for 99% of the community,

Higher elo games are already unbalanced because of riot decision to balance the game for everyone Here is my question to you, you prefer Getting good and destroy garen and master yi, or high elo garen/yi mains getting trash or smurfing to play their main? obviously you prefer the second one, but the first one makes sens and can be done in real life unlike getting garbage at the game

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

The first one doesnt make sense in any way. You know what the first option would do? Drive everyone away from this game.

Some people just dont see the big picture.

Ahristocats1 votes

playing a game requieres a brain

if people don't want to get a brain to play a game why the fuck are they already trying to do something without a brain?

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

Playing a game is primarily for fun.

Why would you play a game that isnt fun? (you wouldnt). If fun is reserved for Challengers and Pros, this game would die - and it would be your ignorant "holier than thou" attitude that would do it in.

So I'm glad Riot doesnt listen to people like you. They might screw up balance sometimes, but they never messed it up as badly as your suggestions would.

Big Lincoln7 votes

balance for high diamond and above, esports is a meme

balancing the game for gold and below would make it quite terrible

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Balance for high diamond and above? Congrats, Shyvana, Mordekaiser, Sona, Garen and Yi are now freelo until high diamond.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

That's why they get reworked first.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

Mhm. That was included in my post.

"Rework linear champions so they stand a chance against non-linear champions."

GULAG 4 U2 votes

I should buy glasses.

chipndip11 votes

They won't, though. Morde, yeah, but not Shyvanna, Garen, or Sona.

Big Lincoln2 votes

are we assuming riot doesn't have a fetish for rework?

those champs might as well be freelo in shit tiers anyway, why should the top players have to have their game pulled back to cater to the bottom? it makes it worse for everyone.

BluePolarizer1 votes

I don't have a problem with that. I mean, those champs and in particular Shyvana is a lot harder to play than you think (if she wasn't then you couldn't distinguish diamond and silver Shyvana players). They need more macro knowledge. The game should in no way be balanced around bronze, silver or gold. I'd hesitate to balance around even plat.

Ahristocats1 votes

and who cares exactly? beside those who want to stay in bronze forever?

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fLnpNBpE,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-01-31T17:14:51.044+0000)

Balance for high diamond and above? Congrats, Shyvana, Mordekaiser, Sona, Garen and Yi are now freelo until high diamond.

I'm okay with this to be perfectly blunt.

One would think people are playing ranked to become a better player, and would aspire to be a skilled high elo player. Why wouldn't people want the game to be balanced around what we should all be striving for?

Dominick Destine7 votes

I find it difficult to take OPs argument seriously when I know that he is bronze level.

You can't criticize plats when you're bronze in the way you're doing.

Ahristocats3 votes

i'm in d1 promo atm

and according to op, i should get a low elo skill to get a balanced game

and according to the people who upvote him, it makes sens

Quepha4 votes

The game was founded on the idea that it would be more competitive than Dota with a balance team who listens to the players at the top.

That said, Riot does care about balance at all levels of play and has shown that they do. You haven't made any specific complaints, only said that the game is awful right now and it must be the fault of e-sports.

WoonStruck1 votes

Nobody ever said it would be more competitive than DotA.

They said it would be more ACCESSIBLE than DotA.

Erockandroll3 votes

I think the people who keep making these arguments, don't quite realize that these different tiers of play, are not separate arenas. What's meta in high tier will affect low tier. (as people learn what is good) Same goes for E-sports. Anything that happens in Esports becomes talk of game. (who would have thought of Apen ADCs or Ziggs bot lane, if they didn't see the korean pros take it first?)

They do their best to fix inherent problems that will apply at all tiers of play. Only occasionally touching those really problematic champions, (And it's usually individual champions) who become out of line, in one particular tier of play.

ifound1dollar1 votes

Actually, Ziggs botlane originated from the pro players' in soloQ, rather than Esports. Balancing around Esports isn't the same as balancing around high elo soloQ. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

Actually, Ziggs botlane originated from the pro players' in soloQ, rather than Esports. Balancing around Esports isn't the same as balancing around high elo soloQ. Correct me if I'm wrong.

well admittedly, that pick did pop up before the pro scene was in full swing.

That doesn't change the fact that a Pro player picked it up. If said pro player got it to work in YoloQ, they will try it in scrims, and if the pick works in scrims, they will take it to the pro stage.

And while it's fairly more niche in the pro scene, that pick did actually pop up a few times. (I think mainly in the LCK)

Also while team synergy and communication are a strong part of the pro scene, they arn't going to be everything, and their will be cross over between champs that are strong in pro play, and in YoloQ.

Spoofghoul1 votes

more often then not the ''original'' things in e sports actually come from the lower tiers of play, not bronze ofc but gold and upwards

this then gets adopted my more players who come into contact with it then some pro sees its value uses it and it floods bronze and silver and to a smaller degree gold and above

E sports teams aren't really innovative they stick to safe stuff more then trying out new builds etc, what they do bring fort is certain game stratgeies like the infamous laneswap situation

but those things are mostly effective in coordinated play and won't be adopted as much by the rest of the community

things like the arpen builds or ziggs adc or sion mid, something ive done since his rework for example, aren't really pro things they see it have some succes in their soloq matches or in other places and use it for themselfes

The true innovation, outside of coordinated strategies, happens in regular playin leagues between gold & challenger and then creeps into pro play

3TWarrior1 votes

try illaoi mid. her tank builds totally shut down anyone without absolutely ridiculous damage and she can freely push them out of lane with her own high base damages

i'm thinking of going into alternative roles with yorick when my time comes, but such is not yet to happen XD

Papa Slothy3 votes

it shouldn't be based completely on pro player, but definitely on higher levels of play

ItsOrval3 votes

This game should not be balanced for pro play because I am bad and too lazy to learn how to counter play against champions.

JoeMG2 votes

Unfortunately, despite currently being a bronzie, I gotta agree with Riot.

I used to be involved in the competitive Halo scene and I remember the uproar as every sequel became more and more catered to casual players. While the casual players may be in the majority, the fact of the matter is the pros/competitive players are the ones who have devoted the most time to learning the game and understand what aspects are over/under powered.

Aside from this, it is the competitive community which gives, not just more of their time, but their money that really keeps the game going, especially a free to play one. Most of their money comes from Esports so really that should be their focus. Like someone else said, whatever goes on in high elo/ pro play ends up trickling down into low elos anyway, so if something does get changed because of pro-tier play casuals like myself will just deal with it. Even if we decide it's awful and quit the game, Riot loses nothing. Now if the pros find something awful and quit the game, there goes a huge chunk of revenue. Unfortunately that's the way it is.

JackMcSnipeyz2 votes

Okay, so you think we should balance the game to tailor it to the average silver player? Don't you think these are the kind of decisions that make the game more casual and noob friendly?

League is not a casual game, you can play it casually but it's not the focus of the game, MOBAs are competetive and much more serious in nature, unlike, lets say - arena shooters.

Why should the majority of bronze and silver players have a higher say at game balance than people who invest time and get better at the game.. Who would i trust to give balance tips to riot, a high tier player who knows the inns and outs of the game? Or a bronze player who got wrecked by master yi and spams the forums with "omg broken" threads.

Not that im defending every change they made, some are very drastically in favor of the LCS and LCS only like rek'sai and shen, but those are extreme examples.

Irelia Bot2 votes

They have generally said the main target is plat to low diamond for most champs being balanced around with a few exceptions such as the ones that clearly demonstrate being completely broken in the right situation. In other words Azir and the like.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

I feel they make an okay balance balancing for Plat level.

GigaPube1 votes

???????

Hawckey2 votes

League feels pretty fine to me, idk wtf you are talking about that is so unbalanced in this game for low elo. Sure there could be some changes here and there but overall it's definitely not unplayable.

Rozair2 votes

I'll use Lee sin as the perfect example. Lee is the best jungler because he is super mobile and can clear camps fast and gank with full health because of his lifesteal passive. The reason people die to a Lee sin is because they don't place wards in the right spots and or their jungler is incompetent at counter jungling because lee is the best jungler. So because of this this creates a huge early game advantage for Lee sins team. At some point around level 3 or 4 Lee starts to fall off I'm comparison to other champions as far as jungle clear speed. This is why you see Lee ganking all the time. If you deny Lee kills all the time he wastes trying to gank will make him even less viable. The main problem with low tier players is that they assume Lee is op and broken and going to kill them when he comes into their lane. Dodging skill shots is harder for noobs to do so they basically die everytime to Lee sin. Now if you nerf Lee sin based on bronze how the hell is he viable for diamond up who will dodge all of Lee sins qs.

Danjeng1 votes

I agree that the game should not be balanced around pro-play. But I think high-level play should be the balancing point, that way, everybody should strive to get to that level.

Unlucky471 votes

Is this in contrast to Adrian Rivens thread? Anyways I agree with this post entirely. The main thing I'd like to see them do is revert the jungle back to season 6 when it wasn't nearly as bad.

manbearswine1 votes

Quick question: What do you think balance in the lower elos even looks like? How can I tell if a champion is too strong or too weak in the lower elos?

WoonStruck2 votes

Its irrelevant.

Game knowledge and experience are so insanely varied below plat that its near impossible to balance according to them.

The only reliable data come from the upper tiers of play.

If you are getting wrecked by a pub-stomper, it means that you have something that is obviously not clicking and need to improve.

The exception to this should only be things that require team-wide support to counter.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

Its irrelevant.

Game knowledge and experience are so insanely varied below plat that its near impossible to balance according to them.

The only reliable data come from the upper tiers of play.

If you are getting wrecked by a pub-stomper, it means that you have something that is obviously not clicking and need to improve.

The exception to this should only be things that require team-wide support to counter.

I don't disagree with what you've said, but it doesn't really answer my question, if your point is that my question has no answer, surely OP disagrees with it, so I would like to hear what he has to say about it.

Unless it's some circlejerk thread where you just put a bunch of random words together and don't discuss it further, then maybe he doesn't.

WoonStruck1 votes

If a champion is too weak or too strong at lower elos, it usually shows they are too binary or not binary enough.

You can make decisions based on the difference between high/low elo and general gameplay patterns.

As a designer, you would usually rework a champion or give them more tools at the cost of a more binary aspect of the champion.

A good example of this is Darius.

A bad example of this is Garen.

At the end of the day, it comes down to the quality of design, not generally balance in the cases you're referring to.

Either you redesign or accept that its a benchmark players must get past to improve.

And yeah, I'd like OP's input as well. Arya's usually pretty good about responding, so its a matter of time.

Snowman Arc1 votes

Garen being weak at pro play but OP at bronze doesn't make Garen unbalanced in terms of OP. It makes him unbalanced as in underpowered. Just because bronzies don't know how to play against Garen and he shits on them, doesn't mean he needs to be nerfed. Maybe the bronzies just need to get better.

It's like shooting 3 pointers, if you only have a 5% success rate at 3-pointers, whereas the good players have 40%, then the problem isn't that the 3-pointer line is too far away from the basket, or that the basket is too small; maybe you just need to get better at shooting 3-pointers, OR MAYBE YOU ARE NOT MEANT FOR THAT KIND OF WORK.

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